How they fixed my Janto, dudes...

[tencrush]

Wow, did you see me do a 180 when it comes to Jack/Ianto at some point in time during the past few weeks? Funny, that.


As you well know, I had a real problem with the portrayal of the Jack/Ianto relationship, primarily from Meat up and until Something Borrowed, with Something Borrowed specifically causing me much in the way of flailing and gnashing of teeth. Now, I have to start off by saying I never subscribed to the oh-poor-woobie-Ianto-getting-used-as-a-sextoy school of thought, I've always thought Ianto was more than capable of looking after himself, and he never struck me as being particularly unhappy with the relationship as it stood. In fact, it was precisely the fact that Ianto was happy in the relationship, even though the relationship seemed oddly superficial and carnal, that I found not worrying, just... odd, given Ianto's attitude in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang about office relationships and such. Anyway, I went into all the things I thought were wrong with the relationship, and if you don't know what they were, feel free to read up here, here, and here. It'll give you something to do, anyway. So, that was me after Something Borrowed.

I kind of like to pretend that FootR didn't happen AT ALL. In terms of characterisation that was pretty much a NON STORY, kudos to the actors for at least giving us a nice bit of one-on-one interaction that seemed quite intimate and relaxed, because there was not a lot in the text to go on. Then, a funny thing happened, and that thing was Adrift. I watched Adrift and SUDDENLY EVERYTHING WAS OK. I couldn't quite put my finger on why, it certainly wasn't anything to do with the sex scene, because oddly, I felt like the sex scene didn't really do much to sway my point of view on the issue IN EITHER DIRECTION, good or bad. They were doing something sexy, I knew they were doing that sort of thing already, so... yeah, whatever. And YET, I was perfectly happy with their relationship, suddenly everything was alright with the world. I had to rewatch it a few times to work out why. And it's subtle, and not completely obvious on first viewing (Not to me, anyway, I'm televisually slow. I blame the children.) It's all to do with Ianto's subterfuge for me, and realising what what Ianto does there implies about what Ianto is thinking, what Ianto's opinion is on the subject, and what that means in terms of the interaction he has with Jack in this episode. See, it's not until Gwen gets the GPS that we realise Ianto is deliberately going behind Jack's back, BECAUSE HE DISAGREES WITH JACK. He thinks it would be better to just tell Gwen and get it over with. Now this fact, the fact that Ianto and Jack don't see eye to eye on this matter, is not a fact that you're really aware of in a PREVIOUS scene, the scene where Ianto says he'll talk to Jack after Jack has FLOUNCED out of a meeting like a big gay diva because Gwen doesn't agree with him. In fact, it's only when you watch it again, knowing what you know about what Ianto's opinion is on the matter (I'll leave out the very obvious fact that IANTO KNOWS ABOUT FLAT HOLM, folks, because that's quite something in and of itself, but okay.) that you begin to understand what Ianto and Jack are talking about in the corridor after Jack has left the meeting. Ianto thinks Jack should tell Gwen. And far from storming off in a big flouncy strop like he did with Gwen when she disagreed with him, Jack stands there and listens to Ianto. Ianto puts his views to Jack, Jack still disagrees and makes that clear and leaves, calmly. Oh, wow, I realised on about the third viewing, that was them having an argument. How brilliant is that? The fact that Jack hears Ianto out, the fact that Ianto goes to Jack in the first place and everyone seems to find this perfectly acceptable, the whole interaction in terms of the two of them and the rest of the team suddenly seemed so natural and comfortable and relaxed that it threw a switch for me and I finally settled into the idea that yes, there's a relationship here and everything's okay. So, yeah, for me, that's what did it.

I still maintain that it all went a bit pear-shaped in the middle there. There's subtle when it comes to directing and body language and characterisation and then there's FUCKING SUBTLE. It's not so much that I have a problem with subtle, it's the fact that there were, at the same time, very many UNSUBTLE things going on. I find it interesting that they made the choice to be subtle about the emotional side of their relationship and unsubtle about the sexual side, obviously they could have just as easily gone the other way, but the other way doesn't provide for enough jokes about inside leg measurements, I suppose. And I think Jack/Gwen was played and written BADLY, I think it distracted a lot of people and caused a lot of unnecessary flailing. (And, God I wish Barrowman was just a little bit shinier at acting, in general.)

Looking back, yeah, it's all wonderfully done, I even remember mentioning when Meat aired, how much I liked the framing in that Jack/Gwen scene with Ianto permanently in the background, because, honestly, it's not that I'm blind to these things, it's just that they ARE subtle. (And I'm not the sort of person who watches episodes that many times, I've got two kids, I'm busy, I've seen every episode maybe three times, tops, even those from Season One. Maybe that's part of the problem.) So there you go. I'm happy about Jack/Ianto, I'm happy about the fact that my wish when I said weeks ago "I hope they really are just being SUBTLE as opposed to RAPE-SPRAY-STUPID" came true and they were just being subtle. I'm not going to apologise for starting or exacerbating the debate or whatever it was that I did, because I stand by what I said: it went a bit flaily and pear-shaped in the middle and Jack looked like a bit of a dick. But it's all good now. I can sleep at night.

And I still maintain there were too many kink jokes. It makes me happy that they seem to SUBTLY, again, hinting at Ianto being The Kinky One, but still. Stop joking about kink, kink is serious business, yo. Don't mess with kink or I'll come looking for you, and I've got a ball gag and a lovely little suede flogger with your name on it, don't think that I don't.

Comments

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

This is very well argued. My biggest problem with the portrayal of Jack/Ianto has been that it seems inconsistent sometimes. I don't have a problem with any of the individual incidents (kink references, smooching, etc), it just seems that all the different writers and directors ship the pair to different degrees, and no one is making sure that they're all on the same page.

I agree that in Adrift, the fact that Ianto is able to argue with Jack speaks volumes. It's also my personal opinion that Jack wasn't that mad at Ianto for going behind his back-- annoyed yes, but I just had this sense that deep down Jack understood why Ianto had done it.

[tencrush]

It HAS been very inconsistent, yeah, and I really do believe one or two of the writers this season were shipping Jack/Gwen or believed they were meant to implying some sort of Jack/Gwen love interest. I won't go talking about the retardedness of not having a show bible again, but, yeah, I think that's retarded, and not groundbreaking in any way, unless you mean you mean groundbreaking in the sense of groundbreakingly retarded.

Yeah, we never really get to see the repercussions of Ianto's actions, but I don't think it was a major issue. Like I've said elsewhere, Ianto only goes behind Jack's back because he feels it's in the best interests of both Jack and the team as a whole, the quicker Gwen lets go of this, the quicker they can get back to chasing aliens.

[holdingoff.livejournal.com]

we really do think about this too much, don't we?


i've watched how the relationship has developed over the season, and its been slow and subtle. from ep1 we knew ianto was going to set the pace, and if nothing else we know he's methodical. we had exuberant puppy ianto for sleeper (my guess, post date and a real good shag) and then a slowly developing real emotional relationship. ianto is always, *always* shown as standing behind (supporting) jack and jack is, for the most part, more even keeled. the real shift starts to happen with something borrowed/from out of the rain/adrift where we are seeing a relationship of equals.

jack still tries to make decisions that he thinks are best for everyone, but ianto is apparently tempering that. i didn't see adrift as a fight or disagreement; but more ianto reasoning with jack- i really don't think he happend to be at the facility by chance the same day gwen was there. and his tone saying "it was ianto, wasn't it" was angry or accusing. merely stating a fact. i'd almost venture to say ianto sent jack to the island that day.

but yeah, we knew going into s2 that things were going to be a slow build- both JB and GDL said that. and oddly, but said that by the end of the season ianto would be most definitely jack's "loyal soldier". a turn of phrase that actually worries me to some extent.

i don't know if i'd consider any of the comments made by jack or ianto to be "kink" just more that they both agree that sometimes, you just want to have some silly sex fun. you don't do that it fragile relationships- you do that sort of thing with someone you're happy with.

i thought the naked hide-and-seek comment from ianto was the most telling of all- "he cheats, he always cheats" with an enormous smile on his face. that alone made the scene.

[tencrush]

Yeah, re. the kink, I've always maintained that stopwatches and such were BBC broadcasting standards code for kinky shit. And there's been quite a few references to their sex games, which combined with an absence of concrete evidence as to any emotional attachment started to become a bit jarring for me, and a lot of other people, and made it seem like a relationship founded purely on a mutual interest in roleplaying and creative uses for hockey sticks. Like I said, it was just the unsubtle approach to their sexual relationship and subtle approach to their emotional one, it came across a bit funny.

As an aside, the kink has always been my reasoning behind thinking that their relationship has been ongoing for longer than most people think. The fact that Ianto came onto Jack with a stopwatch, in my mind BBC code for kinky sex, suggested to me that they certainly would have had sex before then. It's not the sort of thing you proposition someone with for a first time. The last time before then that Jack and Ianto had spoken, Ianto had threatened to fuck Jack's shit up, I hardly believe Jack would be up for a spot of being handcuffed to a chair (as has been suggested on the BBCA Captain's Blog) at that point in time unless there was more going on between them, and for longer, than had been shown.

[jo19844-twfic.livejournal.com]

I agree with your adrift comments completely but also wanna add soemthing...

when Gwen iterrupted Jack and Ianto in the hot house - and god was it ever a HOT house - Ianto came out to seak to her. Now it was here tat I found a little bit of an interesting scene; Ianto made te comment about jack cheating at naked hide and seek and, to me, this sounded very much like two people who are very much together and are happy being together. Gwen seemed to be the odd one out in the scene, and seemed very much the third wheel. You could see that she had intruded on their time together and she wasnt wanted - yes, part of this was due to the fact that Jack wanted to sidestep the issue, but also the 2 men were gving off a very 'together' vibe. In that episode there was also the glee on jacks face when he was going weevil hunting (which i beleve was actually a date cos Jack was dolling himself up and wearing nice new pants which would be very hard to get blood out of).

As for them being equals, i really do think that they have seemed like equals from day one. Yes, Ianto got the worst jobs to do, but when he introduced Ianto to Gwen in ep 1 it was a very easy flirtation with them, compared to the business like way he ntroduced the others. Also in the deleted scene from ep 13 of s1 where jack and ianto argue they seemed on a par there too. When you watch arift you can see aN equal kind of vibe between them whilst fghting the pteridactly IMO, it seems rather similar to the dynamic between ajck and the doctor in places.

I liked out of the rain, mainly due to the fact that it showed Jack opening up to ianto when hed been guarded infront of the others about his past. Also that he valued Ianto's opinion, and that there was a certain easy togetehrness between them in the scene in the cinima where jack is standing a little behind ianto.

[pontisbright.livejournal.com]

Yesyesyes. *skips a bit* I found Adrift a bit, um, dull in terms of the A plot myself, but the Jack and Ianto stuff was just wonderfully done - not the sex scene (not that I'm complaining) but those two little moments (the unheard conversation after Jack's flounce, Ianto telling Gwen she has post) that are meaningless when we first see them but massively telling once you understand how to interpret them. And in a show that on occasion performs characterisation with a sledgehammer, to have something underwritten like that just delights me.

[tencrush]

Yeah, it's one of the main things that bug me, the way it veers between subtle and INYOURFAYCE all the time in terms of character development and plot and such. It makes it so hard to work out sometimes what they're trying to tell us in the way of a story.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I think the finale will be extremely interesting because we can directly compare now how Ianto and Captain John interact with Ianto as Jack's partner compared to how they were at the start of the season.'

I think that's what I'm looking forward to the most.

'Something Borrowed closed the door on Jack/Gwen for me. '
I hope that's true, but it really seems like some writers want Jack/Gwen and some want Jack/Ianto.

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

Don't mess with kink or I'll come looking for you, and I've got a ball gag and a lovely little suede flogger with your name on it, don't think that I don't.

First off, you win a cookie for something you didn't even know was cookie-worthy. Among my crowd, if you can work the word "ball-gag" naturally into a conversation you win points. And that translates into cookies. So congrats for that. (Suede flogger? Oh, that does sound lovely.)

Ahem. Where were we? Ah, yes.

I was thinking that the improvement in the relationship came from GDL growing as an actor. Barrowman isn't so much an actor as he is a showman. His style is overacting, larger-than-life stage musical stage acting. Thus, Jack's relationships are by nature dramatic and in-your-face and that means the wild kink jokes and everything played for a laugh. But GDL is an actor. Yeah, he also sings (rather well, if you like blues which I do.) But he's got it in him to be an incredible screen actor. And I think he gets some of the credit for the way the relationship is starting to appear. While it's true he can only work within the confines of the script he's given, he's managed to use body language and subtle (subtle? The king of emo does subtle? Yep, he does...) facial expressions to convey things that no words can capture. He stands taller than he used to. He leans in towards Jack with affection sometimes, rather than simply to express that one of them has a need for the other. He is relaxed with Jack. All of these things add up to make it a more mature relationship on screen.

MHOYMMVAATS....

[tencrush]

Mmmm... suede.

GDL's GREAT at subtle, I don't know why everyone kept having a go at him last season for being so OTT, because I never got that from him. He's marvellous. I actually give him a lot of credit for the way the relationship's developed on screen, I'm very impressed with what he's done with Ianto on the whole, he's definitely the most interesting and certainly the most consistent character in the show.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'And I still maintain there were too many kink jokes.'
I kind of like the kinky part, it shows how kinky Ianto is.

I do like how their relationship was handled this series. It was described as a slow burn and that is exactly what we've gotten.

I do wish the writing was a little more consistent. It seems like some writers want Jack/Gwen and some want Jack/Ianto, and it can be a bit jarring.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind, but I friended you.

[tencrush]

No, friend away, go on.

[louiex.livejournal.com]

*edges out from lurking*

Another well worded and excellent addition to the meta you've done over this season~ I've got to agree with a lot on what you say here especially the change of the post-board room argument in what it says after seeing the episode once or twice over. How he leaps up and keeps eye contact with Gwen, putting his hand out to placate not only her but the group that he'll fix things. Ianto really has Gwen's back throughout this entire episode, not perhaps agreeing with her want to help people (by running at the mouth about the rift) but knowing Gwen well enough that telling her is the only way to have her let this go. Since its been dubbed as 'naughty' she's going to chase after it even more now and Ianto knows that while Jack, I think, is hoping that for once she'll just listen to him.

It brings to mind other tv shows/movies with a similar scenario except its usually a family setting. Dad saying NO NO NO to -usually- a teenager wanting to do something, catches said teen doing the naughty things, and finds out the other spouse (Mom or in this case, other Dad) snuck them out to go/do/whatever the arguable item is. Things are only so tantalizing when denied and by letting Gwen go, Ianto's effectively nipped this in the bud for both Gwen and Jack's sake.

And yeah, Ianto seems to be the master of kink, doesn't he? Jack's got his own (dressing up/themes) but Ianto likes toys~

[tencrush]

And yeah, Ianto seems to be the master of kink, doesn't he? Jack's got his own (dressing up/themes) but Ianto likes toys~

Ianto's a toy man, definitely. Mmmmmm.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

I too felt a lot like this about Adrift. Looking back, I loved the Jack/Ianto stuff this season from KKBB to Adam, then I think I got a bit annoyed during the Martha-Owen arc because while yes, they admitted their relationship to Martha, and Ianto discussed it with Owen, there's very little actual Jack-Ianto interaction in those episdoes. The only thing that stuck me as significant in those episodes is when Jack gives Ianto the slightest nod, and Ianto immediately understands that Jack wants him to give Owen his gun back -- but that's just way beyond subtle! Then I got hopping mad at the Jack/Gwen stuff in Something Borrowed, and wasn't very much appeased by From Out Of The Rain, because while Jack and Ianto spent most of the episode together, THEY NEVER ACTUALLY TOUCHED! Yes, there was a lot of implied intimacy between them, but for a minute there I thought I was watching a regular buddy show like the Stargates (SG-1 or Atlantis, take your pick), where, you know, slash is strictly SUBTEXT! With Adrift, I'd seen spoilers saying Ianto was going to go behind Jack's back to help Gwen, so the moment he trailed after Jack in the conference room scene, I knew what was going on, and I totally fell in love with that scene. Plus the scene where they talk to Gwen after being interrupted. The nekkedness in the hot house was okay, but their interaction with Gwen afterwards is what really seals it for me. And Fragments -- I just love love love the Jack/Ianto part in Fragments. It really brackets and clarifies their relationship, not really contradicting anything we've seen before but giving them deeper texture and layer. And I don't know whether I'm the only one who feels this way, but the almost-kiss at the end felt just as hot as the kiss in To The Last Man. So looking back on the season as a whole, they really did manage to space out the Jack/Ianto stuff right, but they did have me worried a bit right around the middle!

Now hoping they get it right with the finale...

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Now hoping they get it right with the finale...'
You and me both. Gareth did say that Ianto would end the series as Jack' loyal solider, which can be interpreted in all kinds of ways. As long as he's still alive at the end I'll be happy.

From Out Of The Rain.
How can you mess up a Ianto-centric episode?

[tencrush]

And I don't know whether I'm the only one who feels this way, but the almost-kiss at the end felt just as hot as the kiss in To The Last Man.

I thought it was the hottest interaction they had all season. I love actual real unresolved sexual TENSION.

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

The not-touching is how they're distinguishing their boyfriend time from their work time. When they're not on work time, like in the hothothothouse and at Gwen's wedding, they're always touching. On work time, even when it feels like they should be touching, they're not. It's subtle and it's really clever.

[ripley312.livejournal.com]

I just love your posts so much. I've recently friended you and I'm so glad I did. You point out things that I might've missed, not to mention that I agree with almost everything you write, that it's just a pleasure to read your posts. So thanks.
I've always thought the Jack/Ianto relationship comes down one thing: Chemistry. You either have it (Jack/Ianto) or you don't. (Jack/Gwen). It just makes it worse when you try to force it.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I've always thought the Jack/Ianto relationship comes down one thing: Chemistry.'
Me too. If Jack and Gwen had the kind of chemistry that Jack and Ianto have I wouldn't mind the Jack/Gwen scenes (a little UST never hurts), but they don't have sexual chemistry- nice platonic chemistry though. Sometimes the Jack/Gwen scenes are just painful to watch; the UST just seems so forced.

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

For me, Something Borrowed was the big coming out party (no pun intended). We learned LOUD and CLEAR in KKBB that Ianto was absolutely not interested in an "office" relationship...he was fine with a private relationship so long as it was on private time. In that context, seeing only hints of their relationship in the office is appropriate. In that context, their coworkers (who will have picked up on the sex but not the emotional intimacy) assume they're just having a part-time shag and don't bother to see if anything deeper is going on. Once we had the TW team all present at a distinctly non-office event (Gwen's wedding), boom! They're dancing cheek to cheek. Okay, maybe this isn't a part-time shag.

Up until that point, all the other Jack/Ianto moments have been well away from the rest of the team (Ianto's breakdown in Adam, or the scene in TTLM) or have been the kind of thing that the team wouldn't immediately notice, like Jack watching Ianto from above in the "sad and single" scene in Meat.

In SB, you can see everybody on the team watching J/I as they dance. Earlier than that, the two of them squabble like an old married couple in front of Owen...very cute, by the way. In FOOTR they open up to one another in a way that they will not open up in front of the team, and in Adrift, as you mentioned, they act very much in a couple-ish way.

[tencrush]

Yeah, personally, Someting Borrowed is the one that made me flail so badly. I didn't like the dance scene for the simple fact that Jack was looking at Gwen, the whole thing seemed really awkward on Jack's part, and because it felt really SIGNIFICANT on Ianto's part (it was indeed a coming out scene for Ianto, let's face it) it just didn't sit right with me.

Like I said, looking back, as you've done with all your body language analyses, it all makes perfect sense, but though I'm pretty invested in this show, I'm actually a pretty casual viewer, in that I only ever really watch the episodes when they're on, then the repeat, and in some cases once more on download. I just don't have the time for anything more. I think this show really rewards you if you watch and rewatch, but the subtlety is lost on the casual viewer. I remember my husband, a casual viewer, being really surprised when Jack kissed Ianto in Episode 13 last series. He'd totally missed that there was even the slightest thing going on between them, even though he'd been watching the same show, and probably just as often as I had.