How they fixed my Janto, dudes...
Apr. 2nd, 2008 11:07 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tencrushWow, did you see me do a 180 when it comes to Jack/Ianto at some point in time during the past few weeks? Funny, that.
As you well know, I had a real problem with the portrayal of the Jack/Ianto relationship, primarily from Meat up and until Something Borrowed, with Something Borrowed specifically causing me much in the way of flailing and gnashing of teeth. Now, I have to start off by saying I never subscribed to the oh-poor-woobie-Ianto-getting-used-as-a-sextoy school of thought, I've always thought Ianto was more than capable of looking after himself, and he never struck me as being particularly unhappy with the relationship as it stood. In fact, it was precisely the fact that Ianto was happy in the relationship, even though the relationship seemed oddly superficial and carnal, that I found not worrying, just... odd, given Ianto's attitude in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang about office relationships and such. Anyway, I went into all the things I thought were wrong with the relationship, and if you don't know what they were, feel free to read up here, here, and here. It'll give you something to do, anyway. So, that was me after Something Borrowed.
I kind of like to pretend that FootR didn't happen AT ALL. In terms of characterisation that was pretty much a NON STORY, kudos to the actors for at least giving us a nice bit of one-on-one interaction that seemed quite intimate and relaxed, because there was not a lot in the text to go on. Then, a funny thing happened, and that thing was Adrift. I watched Adrift and SUDDENLY EVERYTHING WAS OK. I couldn't quite put my finger on why, it certainly wasn't anything to do with the sex scene, because oddly, I felt like the sex scene didn't really do much to sway my point of view on the issue IN EITHER DIRECTION, good or bad. They were doing something sexy, I knew they were doing that sort of thing already, so... yeah, whatever. And YET, I was perfectly happy with their relationship, suddenly everything was alright with the world. I had to rewatch it a few times to work out why. And it's subtle, and not completely obvious on first viewing (Not to me, anyway, I'm televisually slow. I blame the children.) It's all to do with Ianto's subterfuge for me, and realising what what Ianto does there implies about what Ianto is thinking, what Ianto's opinion is on the subject, and what that means in terms of the interaction he has with Jack in this episode. See, it's not until Gwen gets the GPS that we realise Ianto is deliberately going behind Jack's back, BECAUSE HE DISAGREES WITH JACK. He thinks it would be better to just tell Gwen and get it over with. Now this fact, the fact that Ianto and Jack don't see eye to eye on this matter, is not a fact that you're really aware of in a PREVIOUS scene, the scene where Ianto says he'll talk to Jack after Jack has FLOUNCED out of a meeting like a big gay diva because Gwen doesn't agree with him. In fact, it's only when you watch it again, knowing what you know about what Ianto's opinion is on the matter (I'll leave out the very obvious fact that IANTO KNOWS ABOUT FLAT HOLM, folks, because that's quite something in and of itself, but okay.) that you begin to understand what Ianto and Jack are talking about in the corridor after Jack has left the meeting. Ianto thinks Jack should tell Gwen. And far from storming off in a big flouncy strop like he did with Gwen when she disagreed with him, Jack stands there and listens to Ianto. Ianto puts his views to Jack, Jack still disagrees and makes that clear and leaves, calmly. Oh, wow, I realised on about the third viewing, that was them having an argument. How brilliant is that? The fact that Jack hears Ianto out, the fact that Ianto goes to Jack in the first place and everyone seems to find this perfectly acceptable, the whole interaction in terms of the two of them and the rest of the team suddenly seemed so natural and comfortable and relaxed that it threw a switch for me and I finally settled into the idea that yes, there's a relationship here and everything's okay. So, yeah, for me, that's what did it.
I still maintain that it all went a bit pear-shaped in the middle there. There's subtle when it comes to directing and body language and characterisation and then there's FUCKING SUBTLE. It's not so much that I have a problem with subtle, it's the fact that there were, at the same time, very many UNSUBTLE things going on. I find it interesting that they made the choice to be subtle about the emotional side of their relationship and unsubtle about the sexual side, obviously they could have just as easily gone the other way, but the other way doesn't provide for enough jokes about inside leg measurements, I suppose. And I think Jack/Gwen was played and written BADLY, I think it distracted a lot of people and caused a lot of unnecessary flailing. (And, God I wish Barrowman was just a little bit shinier at acting, in general.)
Looking back, yeah, it's all wonderfully done, I even remember mentioning when Meat aired, how much I liked the framing in that Jack/Gwen scene with Ianto permanently in the background, because, honestly, it's not that I'm blind to these things, it's just that they ARE subtle. (And I'm not the sort of person who watches episodes that many times, I've got two kids, I'm busy, I've seen every episode maybe three times, tops, even those from Season One. Maybe that's part of the problem.) So there you go. I'm happy about Jack/Ianto, I'm happy about the fact that my wish when I said weeks ago "I hope they really are just being SUBTLE as opposed to RAPE-SPRAY-STUPID" came true and they were just being subtle. I'm not going to apologise for starting or exacerbating the debate or whatever it was that I did, because I stand by what I said: it went a bit flaily and pear-shaped in the middle and Jack looked like a bit of a dick. But it's all good now. I can sleep at night.
And I still maintain there were too many kink jokes. It makes me happy that they seem to SUBTLY, again, hinting at Ianto being The Kinky One, but still. Stop joking about kink, kink is serious business, yo. Don't mess with kink or I'll come looking for you, and I've got a ball gag and a lovely little suede flogger with your name on it, don't think that I don't.
As you well know, I had a real problem with the portrayal of the Jack/Ianto relationship, primarily from Meat up and until Something Borrowed, with Something Borrowed specifically causing me much in the way of flailing and gnashing of teeth. Now, I have to start off by saying I never subscribed to the oh-poor-woobie-Ianto-getting-used-as-a-sextoy school of thought, I've always thought Ianto was more than capable of looking after himself, and he never struck me as being particularly unhappy with the relationship as it stood. In fact, it was precisely the fact that Ianto was happy in the relationship, even though the relationship seemed oddly superficial and carnal, that I found not worrying, just... odd, given Ianto's attitude in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang about office relationships and such. Anyway, I went into all the things I thought were wrong with the relationship, and if you don't know what they were, feel free to read up here, here, and here. It'll give you something to do, anyway. So, that was me after Something Borrowed.
I kind of like to pretend that FootR didn't happen AT ALL. In terms of characterisation that was pretty much a NON STORY, kudos to the actors for at least giving us a nice bit of one-on-one interaction that seemed quite intimate and relaxed, because there was not a lot in the text to go on. Then, a funny thing happened, and that thing was Adrift. I watched Adrift and SUDDENLY EVERYTHING WAS OK. I couldn't quite put my finger on why, it certainly wasn't anything to do with the sex scene, because oddly, I felt like the sex scene didn't really do much to sway my point of view on the issue IN EITHER DIRECTION, good or bad. They were doing something sexy, I knew they were doing that sort of thing already, so... yeah, whatever. And YET, I was perfectly happy with their relationship, suddenly everything was alright with the world. I had to rewatch it a few times to work out why. And it's subtle, and not completely obvious on first viewing (Not to me, anyway, I'm televisually slow. I blame the children.) It's all to do with Ianto's subterfuge for me, and realising what what Ianto does there implies about what Ianto is thinking, what Ianto's opinion is on the subject, and what that means in terms of the interaction he has with Jack in this episode. See, it's not until Gwen gets the GPS that we realise Ianto is deliberately going behind Jack's back, BECAUSE HE DISAGREES WITH JACK. He thinks it would be better to just tell Gwen and get it over with. Now this fact, the fact that Ianto and Jack don't see eye to eye on this matter, is not a fact that you're really aware of in a PREVIOUS scene, the scene where Ianto says he'll talk to Jack after Jack has FLOUNCED out of a meeting like a big gay diva because Gwen doesn't agree with him. In fact, it's only when you watch it again, knowing what you know about what Ianto's opinion is on the matter (I'll leave out the very obvious fact that IANTO KNOWS ABOUT FLAT HOLM, folks, because that's quite something in and of itself, but okay.) that you begin to understand what Ianto and Jack are talking about in the corridor after Jack has left the meeting. Ianto thinks Jack should tell Gwen. And far from storming off in a big flouncy strop like he did with Gwen when she disagreed with him, Jack stands there and listens to Ianto. Ianto puts his views to Jack, Jack still disagrees and makes that clear and leaves, calmly. Oh, wow, I realised on about the third viewing, that was them having an argument. How brilliant is that? The fact that Jack hears Ianto out, the fact that Ianto goes to Jack in the first place and everyone seems to find this perfectly acceptable, the whole interaction in terms of the two of them and the rest of the team suddenly seemed so natural and comfortable and relaxed that it threw a switch for me and I finally settled into the idea that yes, there's a relationship here and everything's okay. So, yeah, for me, that's what did it.
I still maintain that it all went a bit pear-shaped in the middle there. There's subtle when it comes to directing and body language and characterisation and then there's FUCKING SUBTLE. It's not so much that I have a problem with subtle, it's the fact that there were, at the same time, very many UNSUBTLE things going on. I find it interesting that they made the choice to be subtle about the emotional side of their relationship and unsubtle about the sexual side, obviously they could have just as easily gone the other way, but the other way doesn't provide for enough jokes about inside leg measurements, I suppose. And I think Jack/Gwen was played and written BADLY, I think it distracted a lot of people and caused a lot of unnecessary flailing. (And, God I wish Barrowman was just a little bit shinier at acting, in general.)
Looking back, yeah, it's all wonderfully done, I even remember mentioning when Meat aired, how much I liked the framing in that Jack/Gwen scene with Ianto permanently in the background, because, honestly, it's not that I'm blind to these things, it's just that they ARE subtle. (And I'm not the sort of person who watches episodes that many times, I've got two kids, I'm busy, I've seen every episode maybe three times, tops, even those from Season One. Maybe that's part of the problem.) So there you go. I'm happy about Jack/Ianto, I'm happy about the fact that my wish when I said weeks ago "I hope they really are just being SUBTLE as opposed to RAPE-SPRAY-STUPID" came true and they were just being subtle. I'm not going to apologise for starting or exacerbating the debate or whatever it was that I did, because I stand by what I said: it went a bit flaily and pear-shaped in the middle and Jack looked like a bit of a dick. But it's all good now. I can sleep at night.
And I still maintain there were too many kink jokes. It makes me happy that they seem to SUBTLY, again, hinting at Ianto being The Kinky One, but still. Stop joking about kink, kink is serious business, yo. Don't mess with kink or I'll come looking for you, and I've got a ball gag and a lovely little suede flogger with your name on it, don't think that I don't.
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no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 05:49 pm (UTC)Now hoping they get it right with the finale...
no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 06:03 pm (UTC)You and me both. Gareth did say that Ianto would end the series as Jack' loyal solider, which can be interpreted in all kinds of ways. As long as he's still alive at the end I'll be happy.
From Out Of The Rain.
How can you mess up a Ianto-centric episode?
no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 06:22 pm (UTC)Apparently, it's not as hard as you'd think ;) Just leave out any actual characterisation and write a generic story that you could insert any cast into, and sit back and watch. It could have been an X-files, or an episode of Primeval, it really didn't matter WHO it revolved around. Kudos to Gareth for rescuing what was an absolutely dire story, but then he does seem to take anything he's given and run with it while keeping his character as consistent as the writing will allow. And let's face it, the writing is often all over the fucking place.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 06:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 06:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 06:36 pm (UTC)It's like each writers write what ever they want, don't get me started on Jack/Gwen Jack/Ianto.
'Kudos to Gareth for rescuing what was an absolutely dire story, but then he does seem to take anything he's
given and run with it while keeping his character as consistent as the writing will allow.'
He really deserves nothing but praise :D I think the reason I like Jack/Ianto so much is because John always seems to do some of his best work when he's with Gareth.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 05:09 am (UTC)I've noticed that JB does his best work with GDL, followed by Naoko Mori (have you ever seen a Jack/Tosh scene that made you want to rip your eyes out? No?), then Burn Gorman, then Eve Myles. I think it's because he has to work with everything he has to match GDL. With NM he has over 10 years of knowing her and working with her, including being co-leads in Miss Saigon. Burn Gorman is just a fab actor, although his most memorable scenes tend to not have Jack in them. As far as JB/EM, it's kind of hit or miss. She clicks much better with Kai Owen.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 05:36 am (UTC)So true. It really is nice when writers let a character live up to his potential. Gareth can say more with one line than most actors can with a whole page of dialog. Sometimes all he needs is an eyebrow raise or an eye roll.
'As far as JB/EM, it's kind of hit or miss. She clicks much better with Kai Owen.'
I've noticed that.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 08:32 am (UTC)both GDL and NM have theater backgrounds, but they have television experience as well, as does BG and all of them have tended to be character actors, so that tends to mean a bit more experience with subtly. i really don't know much about EM, but i'm honestly not impressed with her acting skills- they tend to be a bit bombastic which is why her and JB just don't work in the same scene too well.
my partner and i compare JB to really hot indian food, he needs to be cut with raita *g*. so put him in a scene with the master of subtle (GDL) and you get a great scene; but him with NM or BG and you get a good scene, but him with EM and you go looking for the bromide.
but the writers do earn a bit of credit because they apparently looked at S1, saw what worked for GDL and wrote mostly to his strong points. he may not have more than a page of dialog in a show; but he can work gestures better than almost anyone.
and yeah, he is pretty damn adorable.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 03:53 pm (UTC)Great analogy :D I'll have to remember it.
My whole problem with Jack/Gwen scenes is that sometimes I don't think John knows how to play their scenes.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 06:26 pm (UTC)ROFL, yes, how can you???? :D
The "loyal soldier" remark strikes me as so odd, because aside from the cyberwoman incident and the minor hiccup in End Of Days, hasn't Ianto *always* been Jack's loyal soldier? So why would Gareth make a specific point of it with reference to the end of this season? Although, the last time Ianto really stuck me as being Jack's loyal soldier was in Captain Jack Harkness, when he argues with Owen and ends up shooting Owen over whether to open the rift. Ianto was insisting that they follow Jack's standing orders in Jack's absence, in a way that came off as very "soldier following commander." So... maybe a similar situation happens in the finale??
no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 06:52 pm (UTC)ROFL, yes, how can you???? :D'
I know.It wasn't even all that Ianto-centric. That episode could have been written for ANY Sci-fi show.
I really hope they don't get Peter J. Hammond to replace Chris Chibnall.
'So... maybe a similar situation happens in the finale??'
I thinking that's what will happen.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 05:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 01:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 06:24 pm (UTC)I thought it was the hottest interaction they had all season. I love actual real unresolved sexual TENSION.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-02 06:45 pm (UTC)You and me both :D
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Date: 2008-04-02 08:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 05:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 01:22 pm (UTC)I do agree that they have a "no-touching during work" rule going on, which, you know, is something to be expected from Ianto, but a bit unexpected coming from Jack. Yes, Jack's really a private person beneath the flamboyant exterior, so if you *really* think about it, it makes sense. But initially, it's like, "wait, they never touch. what's going on?" Takes a bit of reflection before it starts to sink in that they only touch when they are off-work.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 01:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 01:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 02:11 pm (UTC)Woooo, fantastic idea!!! Damn it, why were you not directing that episode?
And the thing is, we know GDL and JB can pull off emotional intimacy -- the kisses in End Of Days and To The Last Man, the almost-kiss in Fragments... So why not here? grrrrrr
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Date: 2008-04-03 02:16 pm (UTC)And the thing is, we know GDL and JB can pull off emotional intimacy
Yeah, exactly, and this was somehow the most weirdly disconnected scene they've had together, I don't get it.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 04:30 pm (UTC)They should, they really should.
They stole your manwhore storyline?? So you're the one I have to thank ;) nods to icon
no subject
Date: 2008-04-03 06:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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