I WUV YOU IANTO

[tencrush]

A brief post about LOVE, like I promised. Or more specifically, about "I love you" and Children of Earth. I've heard from one of GDL's panels at DragonCon that there was a reciprocal "I love you" in Ianto's death scene in Day Four, but it removed at the request of JB and GDL. You may be surprised to know that I am GODDAMN HAPPY about that. That scene was fucking awful, man. It made me cry, yes, Ianto was soon to be dead, but Christ what a cringeworthy sappy piece of shit scene that was. I was upset at the time that there WASN'T an "I love you" from Jack in that scene, I'll admit, but my actual upset wasn't about those words and that moment, it was about the fact that there wasn't anything even remotely approaching a relationship in which those words could have been spoken up until that scene.

What Children of Earth did, for me, above anything else, was tell me that I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG. Way back when, when I started thinking that Jack/Ianto was a bit squicky, and I talked and I talked and I talked and people talked to me, and everyone started convincing each other that we should be reading between the lines and there was more to their emotional bond than we were being shown, all that stuff was thrown out the window in Days One to Four of Children of Earth. There wasn't. There hadn't been. And so all those thoughts I had back then, that Jack was essentially fucking an employee, not really giving anything back emotionally, despite the fact that that employee, who was younger, less experienced, emotionally broken and vulnerable, was very obviously falling in love with him, all that stuff was true. My inklings and instincts that Jack was being a user and was, in fact, a bit of a dick, that really was the case. Not only was there nothing going on, emotionally, in Series One or Two, but when that subject did start coming up in CoE, it was shot down, their interactions became hugely uncomfortable to watch, and a sudden redemption on that front on Ianto's deathbed did absolutely nothing to change that. Too little, too late. It made me hate Jack, far more than I'm sure it was meant to, but it did. I'm glad Jack didn't say "I love you", it would probably have made me hate him even more.

The reason all this stuff still bothers me is pretty simple. I had these bad feelings about Jack during S2 of Torchwood, this inkling that he used people and acted like an arsehole, and used his immortality as an excuse, in his own head, anyway, for how he treated mere mortals emotionally. For me, those feelings were confirmed in CoE when the big, climactic, dramatic drama happened. And the thing is, I have these same feelings about the Doctor. Well, no, not the Doctor, Ten, specifically. This niggling feeling that he's been acting like a dick, and that he uses his emo as an excuse to treat people like shit. In fact with the Doctor it's far less niggling, and far more blatant. I don't want to feel this way about the Doctor, and I'm very, very afraid that, as with Jack, these things will come into play in the final furlong. I DO NOT WANT.

I never really cared about the fact that I disliked Jack, Jack's not a big deal, but the Doctor? I watch this shit with my kid, man, I don't want to have him squeeing over monsters and sonic screwdrivers and TARDISes while I sit by on the sofa and fume and cringe and hate Ten. I don't want all this serious manpain in Who, and I certainly don't want these HINTS of serious manpain and emotional retardation to become CANON. I don't mind hints, I don't mind it when I can read things into this kiddie show, I like being given ambiguity and subtext, things to enjoy on another level while my child hides behind the sofa, that's all great, it's cool. Actual canonical emo and manpain and emotional manipulation? Not so much.

I hear a lot of people saying that it sounds like Moffat's tenure might be a bit much in the way of jelly babies and crappy monsters and silliness. GOOD. I, for one, cannot wait for this development. Bring it on. And Russell? Go make SRSDRAMA somewhere else. I won't be watching.

ETA: LOL, though. I've been criticising Russell T Davies for like two years now, and what was my major complaint about Jack/Ianto? It was Russell, you're not doing a very good job of showing us a relationship between two equals that isn't mildly emotionally abusive and isn't primarily about sex. I was totally wrong. He did a great job of showing us a relationship that wasn't between two equals, was mildly emotionally abusive and was primarily about sex. Russell is, in fact, very good at his job. Who would have thought?

Comments

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

While I disagree with your characterisation of Jack to a vast degree, I can't help but wonder if you listened to the BBC Radio Plays that were released before CoE.

The Dead Line has some deep emotional affection (i.e. love) being pretty explicitly returned by Jack towards Ianto. Taking the plays as canon and making the logical leap that the events of The Dead Line happened the week before CoE, I'm inclined to say that the awkwardness we witness in the pair is due to the fact that these two emotionally stunted/vulnerable people who basically confessed their love to each other and don't really know how to handle that. Add in the whole way their relationship developed (not healthy) and the fact that the hierarchy of their positions remain central to their interpersonal relationship. Given his reaction when Dr. Patanjali makes an assumption about their relationship, Ianto's clearly uncomfortable with people outside Torchwood knowing that he's with Jack. After that point Jack follows Ianto's lead in defining it. With all this evidence of a deeply emotional dynamic, I don't how you make the leap that there is no love coming from Jack, ever, at all.

[satanassa.livejournal.com]

With all this evidence of a deeply emotional dynamic,

I don't think the radio plays (and Captain's Blog, etc) can really count so much as evidence, or at least, as very strong evidence. The radio plays were recorded long after CoE was filmed and did not get even a fraction of the advertising that CoE got. Many fans do not seem to have heard of them yet. And amongst the general non-fannish public I am sure there will be few who would have heard of them and listened to them. They (and Dead Line in particular) seem to have been a way to throw a bone to devoted fans and to people who were interested in the Jack/Ianto pairing. Certainly there was much more relationship information in the few minutes of Ianto's monologue than there was in all of S1,S2 and S3 combined.

The thing is, if we're meant to count plays like Dead Line as canon (and there is a strong case to count them as canon), then why could they not have been made more visible and mainstream? Or failing that, why could not the same concepts and ideas be presented on the TV show itself? Because if a person without internet access or without knowledge of the radio broadcasts watched nothing but the TV series of Torchwood, they would have to conclude what [Bad username or site: tencrush lj-user @ livejournal.com] is saying here.

[satanassa.livejournal.com]

Er -- whups! I don't know what happened there. Sorry for seeming to post a big comment; it is actually just half of that.

[ella-caramella.livejournal.com]

If we take into consideration the books, the audiobooks, the radio dramas, the Capt. Blog, the short stories on the magazine and whatever is out there, which satanassa is perfectly right about is not available to anyone, and we watch them in chronological order along with the actual episodes from the TV show, that's right when we notice that the writing of the relationship is incredibly inconsistent.

They jump from talks about the L word to insecurities about being nothing but a part time shag, from tender moments between them to Jack being emotional/mooning over someone else.

In some of the novels Jack is caring, protective, consider Ianto his boyfriend, admits that he will never be just a blip in time and the week after gives him the cold treatment in CoE. And causes his death.

Ianto goes from being confident enough to proposition Jack to being afraid of what his family/other people may think of his being queer and having the emotional angst of the stereotyped gay teenager.

[tencrush]

I have to agree with the posters above here and say that what evidence there was for any sort of emotional dymanic was hidden away in precisely those marginal things you mention like the Captain's Blog and radio plays, and not intended for the wider audience. That strikes a lot of people as a sign of a production team wanting to have their cake and eat it too, wanting mainstream acceptance and hiding away the emotional aspects of the gay relationship in order to get it, and adding the depth to it in other less mainstream avenues, so they can point to those things and say "No, look, they really did love each other, honest!" All of that, to me, seems cynically pasteded on, and I have terrible trouble taking it seriously.

No matter what was stated in the plays and blog, nothing can alter the fact that their relationship in CoE was at an awkward stage, which, given the things that happened before seemed to a backwards progression. Jack's reluctance to give Ianto even a hint of affection was odd and, to me, seemed out of character.

Having said all that, I have great difficulty seeing Children of Earth in any other way than how it was written, and that was as a standalone production for a new audience, and viewing it as that, not knowing anything that's gone before, Jack is fucking cold towards a stereotypical infatuated, awkward gay boy, pure and simple.

[eandh99.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this. CoE is a new Torchwood for an audience who have little or no knowledge of what had previously appeared under that label, perhaps nothing more than they could've seen in The Stolen Earth (Jack, Gwen, Ianto, Hub). It is for me highly OOC for all the characters (except maybe Rhys). The needy whiny Ianto and the awkward distant Jack of CoE are not only OOC based on the radio plays and the Captain's Blog, they're OOC based on Sleeper (I was terrified...but it passed) and Meat and Adrift and Exit Wounds. In Exit Wounds Ianto doesn't reach for Jack, Gwen reaches for Jack and demands comfort from him, Jack reaches for Ianto, Jack's the one in the final scene who looks like he's cried all night.

And it's not because RTD finally takes over the show and does it his way at last; RTD has approved every script from Everything Changes onwards, made last minute changes. Gareth says that the actors themselves couldn't change a word without approval from RTD and Julie Gardner. ALL of Torchwood is what RTD approved, and the relaunch of CoE is his deliberate rejection of the show's past in favour of a more mainstream, heteronormative, marketable version. I don't believe the "story" determined what happened in CoE, I believe RTD's and Julie's ambitions set the storyline, a combination of Burn Down the Show and Bury the Gay so that they personally could take advantage of the show's success to further their own careers in the US.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Yep. CoE is nothing but a standalone series. It was never meant to be a continuation of S2.

That being said, I think that Jack's disrespect for Ianto is always under the surface. That's why I can easily accept some of the LJ writers who write Jack as a total prick. CoE Jack is like DW Jack with all the good naturedness stripped away. He's not just a skin hound, he's a nasty, bastard period.

A stronger Ianto would have kicked him to the curb. For me, a strong character (e.g. a ninja Ianto) isn't necessary the character that controls the sexual nature of the relationship but is strong enough to walk away from something that isn't giving him what he needs.

[eandh99.livejournal.com]

I don't see as much of that disrespect as you do - but then I think that may be the actors struggling to overcome the scripts, Jack always reads meaner than he plays, in a way, I noticed that in the tie-in novels.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'ALL of Torchwood is what RTD approved, and the relaunch of CoE is his deliberate rejection of the show's past in favour of a more mainstream, heteronormative, marketable version. I don't believe the "story" determined what happened in CoE, I believe RTD's and Julie's ambitions set the storyline, a combination of Burn Down the Show and Bury the Gay so that they personally could take advantage of the show's success to further their own careers in the US.'
So much THIS!

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

love_jackianto: Remember some time ago you asked me what my friend who liked CoE (and who hadn't seem any other TW) thought of S1 & S2 (except the final episode of S2).

She's just finished series 1. Her feeling is that S1 Gwen isn't 'her' Gwen, and Tosh is now her favorite character. Love's Ianto, but with the knowledge that he's going to die. Its like imprinting - her vision of the characters was totally formed by CoE and nothing is going to change that. Just like our vision was set by S1 & S2 and we can't change that. Will she watch a Gwen-centric S4 - you betcha? So RTD has now achieved his original goal of creating a female heroine story with a Welsh policewoman.

The only thing that could f-it-up for him is that the perfect economic storm has hit the entertainiment industry on this side of the Atlantic (I was reading a Brit paper in Heathrow yesterday and yikes, the BBC is really gutting budgets and salaries). I would be so sad is RTD couldn't get his many. new, brilliant ideas, funded on this side of the pond (not).

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Remember some time ago you asked me what my friend who liked CoE (and who hadn't seem any other TW) thought of S1 & S2 (except the final episode of S2).'
I do remember. Thanks for replying!

'So RTD has now achieved his original goal of creating a female heroine story with a Welsh policewoman.'
It's looking like it. If Jack comes back as anything more than a background character and/or Gwen's love interest, I'll be shocked.

'Its like imprinting - her vision of the characters was totally formed by CoE and nothing is going to change that. Just like our vision was set by S1 & S2 and we can't change that.'
That is so true. I have a lot of trouble considering CoE canon (I tend to think of it as TW set in some weird AU) and I probably would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't seen series 1 and series 2. I'm guessing that was the whole point; CoE was made not for the people who watched TW from the beginning, but mainstream fans who don't really care/know about what came before.

'I was reading a Brit paper in Heathrow yesterday and yikes, the BBC is really gutting budgets and salaries'
I know! That's why I'm pretty sure that John is going to have to come back if they want to make another Torchwood. I don't think that TPTB are going to take a chance on a Jack-less Torchwood; even if all Jack does is look pretty and make bad sex jokes.

I would be so sad is RTD couldn't get his many. new, brilliant ideas, funded on this side of the pond (not).
Oh yes, it would be such a shame not to see more of his 'original' ideas. *Ianto style eye roll* Although I would love to see RTD tell his American fans to piss off. He'd be ripped to shreds, first by TPTB and then the fans. For better or worse, American t.v. shows live and die by ratings and telling your fans that they just don't understand 'real' drama and need to go watch something else is a HUGE no-no.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I keep thinking that the supreme irony (both tragic and comic) would be for RTD to fail because he is an openly gay man.

He (IMHO) de-gays a show to make it acceptable to the religious loonies in my country and then discovers that being gay will cause folks to boycott his show...even if its called "Its nice to hate gays."

Let's not forget the Tinky Winky stinky of a few years ago. (OMG he's gay!!). And just recently, one of our brilliant conservative talking-heads creating a nice little fuss about the new GI Joe movie (OMG - he's not American!, with American values!!, he's part of the international UN comspiracy!).

I hope I never find myself in the position of abandoning my principles to make people who think I'm going to burn in hell happy about my work.

At the end of the day, all you have is your personal integrity and reputation. And once you sell out, it really doesn't matter whether its for millions or $10; you've shown what you are, now you're just haggling over the price.

[ella-caramella.livejournal.com]

But he has already done that, hasn't he? Considering all those who are creaming in their pants for the precise reason that Ianto (the gay character!) is dead.

RTD has de-gayed the show with the elimination of the Jack/Ianto relationship. No matter what he says, that's exactly what he has done.

What's even worse is that he has possibly condemned Jack to the role of the 'dirty old man' lusting after pretty young boys coming the chance of a Ianto replacement.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Exactly!

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I keep thinking that the supreme irony (both tragic and comic) would be for RTD to fail because he is an openly gay man.'
That would be ironic.

'Let's not forget the Tinky Winky stinky of a few years ago. (OMG he's gay!!).'
I'm still boggling over that one; they thought he was gay because he was purple, had a triangle on his head and carried a purse magic bag? Someone had WAY TOO MUCH time of their hands.

'I hope I never find myself in the position of abandoning my principles to make people who think I'm going to burn in hell happy about my work.'
Same here. I would like to think that I would walk away before it came to that.