I WUV YOU IANTO

[tencrush]

A brief post about LOVE, like I promised. Or more specifically, about "I love you" and Children of Earth. I've heard from one of GDL's panels at DragonCon that there was a reciprocal "I love you" in Ianto's death scene in Day Four, but it removed at the request of JB and GDL. You may be surprised to know that I am GODDAMN HAPPY about that. That scene was fucking awful, man. It made me cry, yes, Ianto was soon to be dead, but Christ what a cringeworthy sappy piece of shit scene that was. I was upset at the time that there WASN'T an "I love you" from Jack in that scene, I'll admit, but my actual upset wasn't about those words and that moment, it was about the fact that there wasn't anything even remotely approaching a relationship in which those words could have been spoken up until that scene.

What Children of Earth did, for me, above anything else, was tell me that I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG. Way back when, when I started thinking that Jack/Ianto was a bit squicky, and I talked and I talked and I talked and people talked to me, and everyone started convincing each other that we should be reading between the lines and there was more to their emotional bond than we were being shown, all that stuff was thrown out the window in Days One to Four of Children of Earth. There wasn't. There hadn't been. And so all those thoughts I had back then, that Jack was essentially fucking an employee, not really giving anything back emotionally, despite the fact that that employee, who was younger, less experienced, emotionally broken and vulnerable, was very obviously falling in love with him, all that stuff was true. My inklings and instincts that Jack was being a user and was, in fact, a bit of a dick, that really was the case. Not only was there nothing going on, emotionally, in Series One or Two, but when that subject did start coming up in CoE, it was shot down, their interactions became hugely uncomfortable to watch, and a sudden redemption on that front on Ianto's deathbed did absolutely nothing to change that. Too little, too late. It made me hate Jack, far more than I'm sure it was meant to, but it did. I'm glad Jack didn't say "I love you", it would probably have made me hate him even more.

The reason all this stuff still bothers me is pretty simple. I had these bad feelings about Jack during S2 of Torchwood, this inkling that he used people and acted like an arsehole, and used his immortality as an excuse, in his own head, anyway, for how he treated mere mortals emotionally. For me, those feelings were confirmed in CoE when the big, climactic, dramatic drama happened. And the thing is, I have these same feelings about the Doctor. Well, no, not the Doctor, Ten, specifically. This niggling feeling that he's been acting like a dick, and that he uses his emo as an excuse to treat people like shit. In fact with the Doctor it's far less niggling, and far more blatant. I don't want to feel this way about the Doctor, and I'm very, very afraid that, as with Jack, these things will come into play in the final furlong. I DO NOT WANT.

I never really cared about the fact that I disliked Jack, Jack's not a big deal, but the Doctor? I watch this shit with my kid, man, I don't want to have him squeeing over monsters and sonic screwdrivers and TARDISes while I sit by on the sofa and fume and cringe and hate Ten. I don't want all this serious manpain in Who, and I certainly don't want these HINTS of serious manpain and emotional retardation to become CANON. I don't mind hints, I don't mind it when I can read things into this kiddie show, I like being given ambiguity and subtext, things to enjoy on another level while my child hides behind the sofa, that's all great, it's cool. Actual canonical emo and manpain and emotional manipulation? Not so much.

I hear a lot of people saying that it sounds like Moffat's tenure might be a bit much in the way of jelly babies and crappy monsters and silliness. GOOD. I, for one, cannot wait for this development. Bring it on. And Russell? Go make SRSDRAMA somewhere else. I won't be watching.

ETA: LOL, though. I've been criticising Russell T Davies for like two years now, and what was my major complaint about Jack/Ianto? It was Russell, you're not doing a very good job of showing us a relationship between two equals that isn't mildly emotionally abusive and isn't primarily about sex. I was totally wrong. He did a great job of showing us a relationship that wasn't between two equals, was mildly emotionally abusive and was primarily about sex. Russell is, in fact, very good at his job. Who would have thought?

Comments

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the lack of mutual ILU, and I agree with much of what you're saying about Jack's character, though it doesn't cause me to dislike him - I find flawed, fucked up characters more interesting, tbh. I agree too that Jack and Ianto's relationship came from this very fucked up and dark place. I think they actually worked surprisingly amicably and well considering the levels of both their baggage and maladjustment - Ianto's recent and traumatic bereavement, Jack's involvement in that, Jack being Jack with all attendant man!pain, their working relationship, Ianto's mortality always being an unspoken third party etc.

For me, the lack of mutual ILUs saved the scene from descending entirely into cheesy, OTT melodrama, because sometimes people don't say what they ought to say right when they should, and then it's too late, and such is life (and death). I think less is often more in these scenes which are meant to be both sad and beautiful, and it gave the whole scene a bittersweet edge. Far more meaning and sadness and poignancy was packed into that "Don't!" than could have gone into a cliche ILU.

Also, IMHO, deathbed ILUs have limited value anyway - if Jack had said it at that point, I still might not have believed him. I think they did love each other on some level, but theirs wasn't storybook romantic love, and I'm glad it didn't end like that.

[santousha.livejournal.com]

I'm meh on the lack of 'I love you'. If it had been put in I would have cringed. Till the end I still had hope Ianto would dump Jack :/

Jack was essentially fucking an employee, not really giving anything back emotionally, despite the fact that that employee,...interactions became hugely uncomfortable to watch

This is the main reason I never got fully behind the pairing and one of the reasons I hate the character of Jack (the other reason is JB's 'actoring' :/).

But that said, I do think that there were feelings there on Jack's side, while it wasn't love, I do think that there was some affection for Ianto bc the sex could not have been 'that' good.

Jack was just too broken to give Ianto what he needed and Ianto was too damaged to leave. They both got either too complacent or just neither of them wanted it bad enough.

[alba17.livejournal.com]

Sadly, I agree with you, despite being a huge Jack/Ianto shipper and really wanting them to be "in love". COE made it abundantly clear that that wasn't the case, at least on Jack's side, and that Jack was giving Ianto fuck all on the emotional side. It was hugely disappointing to me. I don't dislike Jack because of it though - I felt kind of sad for him that he couldn't really participate in a relationship (and then of course, they totally destroyed him and that aspect was almost a moot point). I agree it would have been inappropriate for Jack to say ILU - they didn't do any of the prep work in the character development to make that convincing, as you say. It was more moving for Jack to say "don't".

[tencrush]

Yeah, I think the reason I see things this way is primarily because I always liked Ianto more than Jack. Ianto kept me watching the show, and I think when you come from an angle of preferring Ianto to Jack, you really end up disliking Jack for the way he treated him.

For me, I'd have been more emotionally satisfied if the fucked-up angle had been played up more, their tension and discomfort with each other had been allowed to grow, and then Ianto had gone off somewhere to do something brave or heroic or foolish without Jack and been shot in the face, bam, dead. Leaving Jack with nothing and leaving everything unsaid. The clichéd soap-opera deathbed thing did absolutely nothing for me in the way of hammering home mortality and missed opportunities or whatever it was that RTD says he was trying to get across.

[tencrush]

I'm with you on the dumping. I really thought that was where it was heading in that scene where Jack tells Ianto about Alice. Ianto had a real "Hey, you know what, this thing isn't going anywhere, why don't you go fuck yourself?" vibe going on in that scene.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

And so all those thoughts I had back then, that Jack was essentially fucking an employee, not really giving anything back emotionally, despite the fact that that employee, who was younger, less experienced, emotionally broken and vulnerable, was very obviously falling in love with him, all that stuff was true.

Well, I had those thoughts too, though I like complicated feelings and motives in onscreen relationships not the Disney romance stuff.

It's my own bias about pairings in entertainment showing, but I prefer UST and weird motives on both sides to "ILU!" "OMG ILU TOO!" After that happens, I'm totally bored with the couple. OHAI MULDER AND SCULLY.

Like Santousha, I would have liked it if Ianto dumped Jack, too. At first, it would have been exciting to be with Jack and reassuring after Lisa (to be with someone invincible) but I would have liked him to love Jack, find that Jack was holding out emotionally because of his past, find someone else (whomever replaced Tosh or Owen, probably) and tell Jack, "Dude, me with you? Not really healthy for me. No hard feelings, but thanks for confirming that I'm bi!" Then Jack would be butthurt for a while and it would've been LOL watching him. I like the dynamic of exes working together, too.

That would have been deliciously uncomfortable!

Huh. I think I might write this.

[tencrush]

I would have liked him to love Jack, find that Jack was holding out emotionally because of his past, find someone else (whomever replaced Tosh or Owen, probably) and tell Jack, "Dude, me with you? Not really healthy for me. No hard feelings, but thanks for confirming that I'm bi!" Then Jack would be butthurt for a while and it would've been LOL watching him. I like the dynamic of exes working together, too.
That would have made for such a great entire fourth series. Plus, it would have got rid of that unspoken vibe that's there in Torchwood that Jack's cock is just the greatest thing since sliced bread. Ianto could have been all "It's just a cock, Jack. I've had better. You're a bit full of yourself and have a tendency to preen and pretend you're on camera" and we would have lolled all over the place. DAMN YOU SHOW!!!

[takenatwork.livejournal.com]

Ianto was so much more than his relationship with Jack and it's heartbreaking that that's all he became in COE. Sadly, I agree with what you say, about Jack, the Doctor, manpain and jelly babies.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

\o/

Even people who are uber-attractive and great in bed get dumped, if they're not filling an emotional or other need.

I'd have liked Ianto to say, "You know, I've decided I want to live, and you're going to live forever, and in ten years, it'll be weird. I want a normal relationship."

And sure, it'd be ironic man-pain for Jack after he's encouraged Gwen to have a normal life and 'keeps it realz' when Ianto decides to as well. "But. Wait. I can care more. Damn, too late."

I prefer "I got dumped" manpain to "my boyfriend died" manpain. Everybody Jack's loved has already died anyway. It's been done!

[lukita.livejournal.com]

RTD's writing is a bit like looking at some newbie writer with a ton of potential if someone edits the hell out of it. Then we remember that RTD isn't fresh out of film school, have been writing for years and have a lot of scripts under his belt.

I'm going back to forgetting CoE and waiting for Moffat's Doctor.

Also, as much as I love Janto, I agree with the above people and say it would have been fun to watch Ianto dumping Jack's ass.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I'm going back to forgetting CoE'
Me too. CoE was just so weird and AU like that it's easy for me to forgot.

[santousha.livejournal.com]

Ianto lost his fire and passion in COE. I missed the man who defied/punched Jack in Cyberwoman and Adrift, manipulated him in Fragments, fought for Jack in Exit Wounds and Meat.

Jack pushed hard when Ianto brought up the kids. He meant to hurt and Ianto just took it.

He didn't get angry or aggressive, he just put on his wooby-face and took it.

And what was up with that wooby-face?
The Ianto that saved Jack in COE was not the Ianto that stun-gunned a guy in the crotch or aimed a gun at Hart's face. /rant

I'm of two minds on whether it was IC or not. It seemed to fit with the backstory he had received in COE, but not with the backstory and character-dev of the past 2 series.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I agree with every single word.

""For me, I'd have been more emotionally satisfied if the fucked-up angle had been played up more, their tension and discomfort with each other had been allowed to grow, and then Ianto had gone off somewhere to do something brave or heroic or foolish without Jack and been shot in the face, bam, dead. Leaving Jack with nothing and leaving everything unsaid.""

I agree with this too. It's like RTD couldn't decide whether to have Jack and Ianto as an OTP type of couple or a totally fu**** up type of couple. He just took little bits from both types of relationship, leaving us feeling confused and unsatisfied.

[lukita.livejournal.com]

It reminded me of those really bad "horror flicks" I watched when I was in high school, kill a bunch of people in the beginning, girls runs upstairs in high heels and a blow everything up ending. I enjoyed watching them back then but you know... high school.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

Great analogy! When I was watching CoE all I could think was 'I waited 14-months for THAT!?'

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'It's like RTD couldn't decide whether to have Jack and Ianto as an OTP type of couple or a totally fu**** up type of couple. He just took little bits from both types of relationship, leaving us feeling confused and unsatisfied.'
I think that RTD actually saw Jack/Ianto as a OTP. When he tries to write OTP the relationships are always screwed up, with one person having all the power (in this case Jack) and the other not having any (Ianto). Just look at Doctor 10/Rose

[lukita.livejournal.com]

XD I'm a horror fan, so all the RTD!DRAMA got lost on me and I spent a good portion of CoE being bored. I came in late to the fandom so I didn't wait as long, but yeesh what a let down.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was bored too.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

Yeah I see what you mean.

But I still come away from the whole Jack/Ianto relationship feeling confused about what we were meant to be seeing. :)

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'But I still come away from the whole Jack/Ianto relationship feeling confused about what we were meant to be seeing. :)'
Yeah, it was confusing. A lot of CoE confused me. I just found the characters so OOC.

[ella-caramella.livejournal.com]

In the end it's just bad writing. RTD isn't even responsible for the disjointed way the relationship was written, he only wrote the first episode of season 1 and threw the characterisations out of the window in CoE.

RTD and JG deliberately sold the relationship as a 'love story' only because it suited them in that occasion to do so. They just needed something to be the turning point in Jack's devastation so they took what previously was just an ambiguous interaction and elevated it to the 'love story' status. Too bad that this elevation happened only in the interviews and never actually on screen.

I sure as hell wasn't expecting and above all never wanted Jack and Ianto to get married and start adopting children. I love dark, complicated, fucked up characters and relationships but the problem with Torchwood in general and with CoE in particular is that, while there was fucked up stuff there, there was never a relationship. At all. Whatever was happening there between Jack and Ianto was not fucked up in a good way, as the result of an intentionally intriguing storyline and characterisation but it was fucked up in a bad bad way, unintentionally, because of lazy writing and lack of continuity.

RTD doesn't give a damn about the characters, to him they are just props to use and abuse in order to serve the plot and to raise the ratings (I'm sure one of the reasons why Ianto had to die was to give the NEW viewers the 'Jack's immortality is a curse' message - the old fans already got that ad nauseam) and that's why he can't be bothered with keeping them IC.

He did a great job of showing us a relationship that wasn't between two equals, was mildly emotionally abusive and was primarily about sex. Russell is, in fact, very good at his job. Who would have thought?

LOL, in fact. Don't you love the irony in this? You have to concede him that he's extremely good at being bad.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

While I can see how your interpretation of Jack in CoE comes about, and I do think it's a valid interpretation, I don't think it's the *only* possible interpretation. I, for one, thought that CoE did have many subtle moments where Jack does show reciprocal affection toward Ianto. The most prominent one being the conversation right before the "beans," where Ianto suggests that they should make the most of the time they have, and Jack says "Suppose," with what I felt was the most fond and affectionate smile at Ianto. But I also respect that others might not see those moments and think I'm just projecting what I want to see. What I did think was cheesy about the death scene was that *Ianto* revived long enough to say "I love you," and "Don't forget me" (gah!). I would have preferred it if Ianto just collapsed and died without saying anything, and then perhaps we could be having a big debate about whether Ianto actually loved Jack or not.... *g*

[as1mplegirl.livejournal.com]

They don't seem to have many problems implying Jack has having relationships in the past with women. I just think that they (the writers) refused to do this relationship justice. Whether that's being too ghey or wanting footloose fancy free not too involved 'hero'. I don't know.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Too bad that this elevation happened only in the interviews and never actually on screen.'
Yeah, but like you said pretty much ALL of their relationship happened off-screen.

'(I'm sure one of the reasons why Ianto had to die was to give the NEW viewers the 'Jack's immortality is a curse' message - the old fans already got that ad nauseam)'
Not to mention the 'people die young in Torchwood' message that we also got ad nauseam with Owen and Tosh.

[satanassa.livejournal.com]

I'll repeat a comment I made elsewhere -- can you imagine John B, with his shite acting skills, making an 'emotional' face and bawling 'I love you, Ianto!'? It makes me cringe even to think about it.

Any signs of affection from Jack to Ianto in CoE were very slight and very rare. On the contrary, there were numerous signs of indifference and disrespectful behaviour from Jack towards Ianto (remember when he *yells* at Ianto to tell him the names of the people who were involved in the 456 cover-up decades ago?). If RTD thought this was a portrayal of 'true love' I have to wonder if he is mentally disturbed.