I WUV YOU IANTO
Sep. 11th, 2009 09:58 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tencrushA brief post about LOVE, like I promised. Or more specifically, about "I love you" and Children of Earth. I've heard from one of GDL's panels at DragonCon that there was a reciprocal "I love you" in Ianto's death scene in Day Four, but it removed at the request of JB and GDL. You may be surprised to know that I am GODDAMN HAPPY about that. That scene was fucking awful, man. It made me cry, yes, Ianto was soon to be dead, but Christ what a cringeworthy sappy piece of shit scene that was. I was upset at the time that there WASN'T an "I love you" from Jack in that scene, I'll admit, but my actual upset wasn't about those words and that moment, it was about the fact that there wasn't anything even remotely approaching a relationship in which those words could have been spoken up until that scene.
What Children of Earth did, for me, above anything else, was tell me that I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG. Way back when, when I started thinking that Jack/Ianto was a bit squicky, and I talked and I talked and I talked and people talked to me, and everyone started convincing each other that we should be reading between the lines and there was more to their emotional bond than we were being shown, all that stuff was thrown out the window in Days One to Four of Children of Earth. There wasn't. There hadn't been. And so all those thoughts I had back then, that Jack was essentially fucking an employee, not really giving anything back emotionally, despite the fact that that employee, who was younger, less experienced, emotionally broken and vulnerable, was very obviously falling in love with him, all that stuff was true. My inklings and instincts that Jack was being a user and was, in fact, a bit of a dick, that really was the case. Not only was there nothing going on, emotionally, in Series One or Two, but when that subject did start coming up in CoE, it was shot down, their interactions became hugely uncomfortable to watch, and a sudden redemption on that front on Ianto's deathbed did absolutely nothing to change that. Too little, too late. It made me hate Jack, far more than I'm sure it was meant to, but it did. I'm glad Jack didn't say "I love you", it would probably have made me hate him even more.
The reason all this stuff still bothers me is pretty simple. I had these bad feelings about Jack during S2 of Torchwood, this inkling that he used people and acted like an arsehole, and used his immortality as an excuse, in his own head, anyway, for how he treated mere mortals emotionally. For me, those feelings were confirmed in CoE when the big, climactic, dramatic drama happened. And the thing is, I have these same feelings about the Doctor. Well, no, not the Doctor, Ten, specifically. This niggling feeling that he's been acting like a dick, and that he uses his emo as an excuse to treat people like shit. In fact with the Doctor it's far less niggling, and far more blatant. I don't want to feel this way about the Doctor, and I'm very, very afraid that, as with Jack, these things will come into play in the final furlong. I DO NOT WANT.
I never really cared about the fact that I disliked Jack, Jack's not a big deal, but the Doctor? I watch this shit with my kid, man, I don't want to have him squeeing over monsters and sonic screwdrivers and TARDISes while I sit by on the sofa and fume and cringe and hate Ten. I don't want all this serious manpain in Who, and I certainly don't want these HINTS of serious manpain and emotional retardation to become CANON. I don't mind hints, I don't mind it when I can read things into this kiddie show, I like being given ambiguity and subtext, things to enjoy on another level while my child hides behind the sofa, that's all great, it's cool. Actual canonical emo and manpain and emotional manipulation? Not so much.
I hear a lot of people saying that it sounds like Moffat's tenure might be a bit much in the way of jelly babies and crappy monsters and silliness. GOOD. I, for one, cannot wait for this development. Bring it on. And Russell? Go make SRSDRAMA somewhere else. I won't be watching.
ETA: LOL, though. I've been criticising Russell T Davies for like two years now, and what was my major complaint about Jack/Ianto? It was Russell, you're not doing a very good job of showing us a relationship between two equals that isn't mildly emotionally abusive and isn't primarily about sex. I was totally wrong. He did a great job of showing us a relationship that wasn't between two equals, was mildly emotionally abusive and was primarily about sex. Russell is, in fact, very good at his job. Who would have thought?
What Children of Earth did, for me, above anything else, was tell me that I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG. Way back when, when I started thinking that Jack/Ianto was a bit squicky, and I talked and I talked and I talked and people talked to me, and everyone started convincing each other that we should be reading between the lines and there was more to their emotional bond than we were being shown, all that stuff was thrown out the window in Days One to Four of Children of Earth. There wasn't. There hadn't been. And so all those thoughts I had back then, that Jack was essentially fucking an employee, not really giving anything back emotionally, despite the fact that that employee, who was younger, less experienced, emotionally broken and vulnerable, was very obviously falling in love with him, all that stuff was true. My inklings and instincts that Jack was being a user and was, in fact, a bit of a dick, that really was the case. Not only was there nothing going on, emotionally, in Series One or Two, but when that subject did start coming up in CoE, it was shot down, their interactions became hugely uncomfortable to watch, and a sudden redemption on that front on Ianto's deathbed did absolutely nothing to change that. Too little, too late. It made me hate Jack, far more than I'm sure it was meant to, but it did. I'm glad Jack didn't say "I love you", it would probably have made me hate him even more.
The reason all this stuff still bothers me is pretty simple. I had these bad feelings about Jack during S2 of Torchwood, this inkling that he used people and acted like an arsehole, and used his immortality as an excuse, in his own head, anyway, for how he treated mere mortals emotionally. For me, those feelings were confirmed in CoE when the big, climactic, dramatic drama happened. And the thing is, I have these same feelings about the Doctor. Well, no, not the Doctor, Ten, specifically. This niggling feeling that he's been acting like a dick, and that he uses his emo as an excuse to treat people like shit. In fact with the Doctor it's far less niggling, and far more blatant. I don't want to feel this way about the Doctor, and I'm very, very afraid that, as with Jack, these things will come into play in the final furlong. I DO NOT WANT.
I never really cared about the fact that I disliked Jack, Jack's not a big deal, but the Doctor? I watch this shit with my kid, man, I don't want to have him squeeing over monsters and sonic screwdrivers and TARDISes while I sit by on the sofa and fume and cringe and hate Ten. I don't want all this serious manpain in Who, and I certainly don't want these HINTS of serious manpain and emotional retardation to become CANON. I don't mind hints, I don't mind it when I can read things into this kiddie show, I like being given ambiguity and subtext, things to enjoy on another level while my child hides behind the sofa, that's all great, it's cool. Actual canonical emo and manpain and emotional manipulation? Not so much.
I hear a lot of people saying that it sounds like Moffat's tenure might be a bit much in the way of jelly babies and crappy monsters and silliness. GOOD. I, for one, cannot wait for this development. Bring it on. And Russell? Go make SRSDRAMA somewhere else. I won't be watching.
ETA: LOL, though. I've been criticising Russell T Davies for like two years now, and what was my major complaint about Jack/Ianto? It was Russell, you're not doing a very good job of showing us a relationship between two equals that isn't mildly emotionally abusive and isn't primarily about sex. I was totally wrong. He did a great job of showing us a relationship that wasn't between two equals, was mildly emotionally abusive and was primarily about sex. Russell is, in fact, very good at his job. Who would have thought?
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no subject
Date: 2009-09-13 06:10 pm (UTC)She's just finished series 1. Her feeling is that S1 Gwen isn't 'her' Gwen, and Tosh is now her favorite character. Love's Ianto, but with the knowledge that he's going to die. Its like imprinting - her vision of the characters was totally formed by CoE and nothing is going to change that. Just like our vision was set by S1 & S2 and we can't change that. Will she watch a Gwen-centric S4 - you betcha? So RTD has now achieved his original goal of creating a female heroine story with a Welsh policewoman.
The only thing that could f-it-up for him is that the perfect economic storm has hit the entertainiment industry on this side of the Atlantic (I was reading a Brit paper in Heathrow yesterday and yikes, the BBC is really gutting budgets and salaries). I would be so sad is RTD couldn't get his many. new, brilliant ideas, funded on this side of the pond (not).
no subject
Date: 2009-09-13 07:02 pm (UTC)I do remember. Thanks for replying!
'So RTD has now achieved his original goal of creating a female heroine story with a Welsh policewoman.'
It's looking like it. If Jack comes back as anything more than a background character and/or Gwen's love interest, I'll be shocked.
'Its like imprinting - her vision of the characters was totally formed by CoE and nothing is going to change that. Just like our vision was set by S1 & S2 and we can't change that.'
That is so true. I have a lot of trouble considering CoE canon (I tend to think of it as TW set in some weird AU) and I probably would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't seen series 1 and series 2. I'm guessing that was the whole point; CoE was made not for the people who watched TW from the beginning, but mainstream fans who don't really care/know about what came before.
'I was reading a Brit paper in Heathrow yesterday and yikes, the BBC is really gutting budgets and salaries'
I know! That's why I'm pretty sure that John is going to have to come back if they want to make another Torchwood. I don't think that TPTB are going to take a chance on a Jack-less Torchwood; even if all Jack does is look pretty and make bad sex jokes.
I would be so sad is RTD couldn't get his many. new, brilliant ideas, funded on this side of the pond (not).
Oh yes, it would be such a shame not to see more of his 'original' ideas. *Ianto style eye roll* Although I would love to see RTD tell his American fans to piss off. He'd be ripped to shreds, first by TPTB and then the fans. For better or worse, American t.v. shows live and die by ratings and telling your fans that they just don't understand 'real' drama and need to go watch something else is a HUGE no-no.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-13 07:33 pm (UTC)He (IMHO) de-gays a show to make it acceptable to the religious loonies in my country and then discovers that being gay will cause folks to boycott his show...even if its called "Its nice to hate gays."
Let's not forget the Tinky Winky stinky of a few years ago. (OMG he's gay!!). And just recently, one of our brilliant conservative talking-heads creating a nice little fuss about the new GI Joe movie (OMG - he's not American!, with American values!!, he's part of the international UN comspiracy!).
I hope I never find myself in the position of abandoning my principles to make people who think I'm going to burn in hell happy about my work.
At the end of the day, all you have is your personal integrity and reputation. And once you sell out, it really doesn't matter whether its for millions or $10; you've shown what you are, now you're just haggling over the price.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-13 07:51 pm (UTC)RTD has de-gayed the show with the elimination of the Jack/Ianto relationship. No matter what he says, that's exactly what he has done.
What's even worse is that he has possibly condemned Jack to the role of the 'dirty old man' lusting after pretty young boys coming the chance of a Ianto replacement.
no subject
Date: 2009-09-13 10:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-09-14 04:10 pm (UTC)That would be ironic.
'Let's not forget the Tinky Winky stinky of a few years ago. (OMG he's gay!!).'
I'm still boggling over that one; they thought he was gay because he was purple, had a triangle on his head and carried a
pursemagic bag? Someone had WAY TOO MUCH time of their hands.'I hope I never find myself in the position of abandoning my principles to make people who think I'm going to burn in hell happy about my work.'
Same here. I would like to think that I would walk away before it came to that.