tencrush | That big Janto debate, in summary, then...

tencrush

Thank everyone for jumping into my debate/ramblings about Jack/Ianto, just a point or two to clarify and summarise:

I don't have a problem with Gwen, or Jack being in love with or loving Gwen. I don't think it detracts from his relationship with Ianto and I don't think Ianto is some poor naive lamb who is hurt by Jack looking at or loving other people. I'm pretty sure Ianto realises that getting involved with Jack could mean entering into a polyamorous relationship, and I assume that in entering into a relationship with Jack, Ianto accepts that. I've never thought of Ianto as naive or stupid. He knows what he's doing.

The problem I do have, is in the fact that they are SHOWING us Jack MOONING over Gwen, and they are showing us ABSOLUTELY NO MOONING over Ianto. In doing that, whilst slowly showing us that Ianto is PRETTY DAMNED IN LOVE (The speech in Adam, the coming out scene this episode, Ianto is getting pretty invested into this relationship, if you hadn't noticed), they're not showing ANY OF THE SAME from Jack. Now Jack already is Ianto's boss, he's older than Ianto, and, this being Ianto's first guy-guy thing, Jack is VASTLY MORE EXPERIENCED as well. As they start to show us how emotionally involved Ianto is, with no reciprocation on that level from Jack, the relationship becomes more and more uncomfortable to watch because the power is starting to shift towards Jack so heavily. Harassment. I had this issue with them in season 1, as well. That niggling feeling I couldn't quite shift that Jack was manipulating Ianto with sex, because Jack figured it would be advantageous to redirect Ianto's obviously passionate loyalties towards Jack, by means of his magickal futuristic cock.

Or, to put it another way, and quote one of the commenters on the previous post: "isn't sleeping with someone who has way deep emotional feelings for you, which you clearly don't reciprocate as intensely, still pretty icky?" No matter which way you look at it, yeah, that's a little bit icky.

And to quote myself, another general niggle I have is this: The playing up of their sex games is starting to detract from any possible hints of depth to the relationship and is distracting me to the point of annoyance. Jokes are one thing, kink is fine, but you can take things too far, and that point has more or less been reached, unless you give me some depth to balance it out.

On a seperate note, I have never once said Gareth David-Lloyd is fat. I've been making pie jokes for a few weeks, because he's obviously gained a few pounds and he's one of those people unfortunate enough to have any weight gain, no matter how slight, show up around the face area, so he needs to watch himself. I only say it out of love and I would still happily FUCK HIM UNTIL HE BREAKS. Just to make that clear.

I do have a serious observation to make about Jack's implied attitude of fucking the men and marrying the women, but I'll probably save it for torch_wood or torchwood_meta or something, because it's something that seems to be becoming an issue with a lot of people.

Thank you all for listening.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

fahrbotdrusilla

I agree with pretty much everything you said, especially the second bullet point.

From: (Anonymous)

wrt above.

Point 1) Agree with Ianto not being bothered about Jack 'looking' at other people, I would necessarily agree on the 'in love' with other people part, that he would accept that a relationship with Jack would have to polyamorous. I've not seen anything much to indicate Jack is incapable of monogamy. 'Mom and dad' are about as 2.4 kids as you can get. The important relationships he's had, ie with women, you get no indication there was a requirement to accept him loving or sleeping with others. You can imagine him going off in monogamous bliss with Gwen. Of course having made Jack a 'sex God' who isn't seen to have sex, it's hard to get a definitive view. But short of me actually seeing some all Jack's relationships are polyamorous and Ianto's happy to share anouncement, I'm going to continue to plump for that's not necessarily the case. How naive Ianto is, again, something you can debate, he certainly got done over by Cyberlisa. It's been stated by pie boy that Ianto's inexperienced in same sex relationships. And as one commenter said, he comes across, to me at least, as being so in love that sense goes out the window.

2,3, 4) Agree re lack of any depth of feelings on Jack's side especially in light of obvious love of Gwen. I've never given much thought to the boss / subordinate thing but it just makes the relationship seem more unhealthy. Thought we might see something different after KKBB. Think sex games would seem less annoying without the 'I love you Gwen' to contrast them against though.

5) Down with pies! but not down his throat obviously. Perhaps Jack and Ianto can be saved by mutual pie love and the three of them (Jack/Ianto/Pie) can have an American Pie style triamorous relationship. OT3 <3 I'm afraid Sarah Jane would have to be thrown aside though.

From:

euphorazine.livejournal.com

And to quote myself, the general niggle I have is this: The playing up of their sex games is starting to detract from any possible hints of depth to the relationship and is distracting me to the point of annoyance. Jokes are one thing, kink is fine, but you can take things too far, and that point has more or less been reached, unless you give me some depth to balance it out.

I do agree with this. Otherwise, I've been enjoying this "slow burn" thing, but the *nudge nudge* *wink wink* "wot's going on 'ere then" bit is getting a little old. It's like the writers are distracted by what new stopwatches they can throw into the mix and the double entendres they can think up and have forgotten a little about... well, the depth.

Edited Date: 2008-03-09 01:14 pm (UTC)

From:

rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com

ITA and thanks for posting this. The discussion has been fantastic.

It's rather sad to me that I'm starting to feel uncomfortable about the references to the sex games because it should be wonderful to be in a such an obviously inventive and satisfying sexual relationship. But because Jack is such a cipher at this point, I'd just rather they cooled it for a bit.

Ianto has been depicted as a person of a very serious, deep nature. I always thought that part of S1 was about Jack screwing the life back into Ianto (to put it crudely). The relationship seemed equal; they both wanted to have a good time and Ianto was too damaged to entertain anything else. But by the end of S1 things changed. Now Ianto has an emotional investment. But who knows what Jack feels? Things started off well with Jack's nervousness about asking Ianto on a date but slowly we've gone through a process where Jack has disappeared emotionally. It's evident he loves his team but it's really hard to see if he feels anything essentially different for Ianto. Are we supposed to think that Jack is unaware of Ianto's feelings? Even though Jack doesn't remember Ianto's confession in Adam, I find that hard to believe. Ianto is such a private person that asking Jack to dance in public seems like a pretty significant statement to me (although Jack's almost eyeroll tells me he just saw it as Ianto pissing on him in public). Ianto, even after initially playing off Martha's nosiness with a 'we dabble' followed up with a very serious 'yes'. He's private and he'll protect what's important to him to keep it so but when pushed, he makes the gestures.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. But it soon will be if this series concludes without us getting a better look inside Jack's head. I had gone into SB hoping that the writers were just trying to give Jack/Gwen its due before bringing it to conclusion to move on with Jack/Ianto but...I need some text to keep the faith. I'm not sure making it clear that the relationship is 'no strings, just for fun' is even on the cards now unless they do some rework with Ianto.

I agree that the power dynamic is out of balance and the writers really need to rework it. Having Ianto anticipate Jack's needs, hold his coat, provide mind-blowing sex, shop for a romantic rival's wedding dress, etc. are all well and good but if Jack isn't meeting Ianto's emotional needs (which I think are deep) then it does start to approach icky

I also agree that I don't see Ianto as particularly jealous, but GDL has said in interviews that jealousy will always be an issue for Ianto. The BBC e-mails do have Jack teasing Ianto about being jealous but Ianto claiming that Jack underestimates him. I agree with you that I think Ianto realizes pretty well what he's gotten into and it's worth it to him to deal with it but there may be a line the audience doesn't want to cross in that respect even if Ianto does. At some point we have to wonder what's wrong with Ianto if he's willing to invest emotionally with someone who can't or won't return that fully. Is Ianto so damaged by the experience with Lisa that what's most important to him that he be involved with someone who can't leave (e.g. die)? And is that why he keeps pushing that issue with Jack? I don't know. But I'd love the writers to show me.

ETA: I'm exactly like GDL. When I gain weight, it shows in my face. ITA that GDL is by no means fat. I heard that last series he was considered to be excessively thin. But I do miss his jawline and it's in his own best interests to find it again. He has enough issues with his hairline. Okay, now I've done it by raising the other unspoken issue. I do love him, though, and he's fantastically sexy but seems to perhaps be partially unaware of it so bless him. Stay away from the intarwebz and the conventions, Garth! Stay as sweet as you are now.

Edited Date: 2008-03-09 01:30 pm (UTC)

From:

tencrush

OHGODISOWASN'TGOINGTOMENTIONTHEHAIRLINE.

I could post a long response, but everything you've written here and elsewhere so far has just made me nod vehemently and say "yes" and "exactly" a lot, so:

Yes. *nods* Exactly.

That big Janto debate, in summary, then...

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