How they killed my Janto, dudes.

[tencrush]

I'm still full of hate after Something Borrowed, and I'll attempt to explain why.

In Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, we were given a promising glimpse of Ianto-with-a-spine. He basically stated he wasn't interested in being Jack's part time office shag and wanted more, or no deal. Jack seemed to be au fait with this and looked to be pursuing the relationship. My little shipper heart went YAY, and that didn't really change, especially after To The Last Man, when I, along with everyone else in the world, pretty much saw what appeared to be a declaration of love from Jack. OMG WOW. Then... what the fuck happened?

I started to develop hate when Ianto said he and Jack 'dabbled'. While I could defend Jack's trying to hide the relationship based on what he said in Meat (he has an emotional investment, it makes you vulnerable, and he really shouldn't be forming EMOTIONAL bonds with his team, because it affects his abilities as their leader, yeah? Fine.), here, though, we suddenly have Ianto downplaying what I had assumed was an emotional attachment to Jack, and why? Dead Man Walking, again, shows Ianto on the defensive with regards to the relationship. "It's not like that", right, OK. Funnily enough, Ianto seems too unsure to expand and tell Owen what it IS, in fact, like. He's become almost apologetic, and why? Oh, roll on Something Borrowed, HERE'S WHY! He's IN LOVE. He's a lovesick puppy, thinking about wedding dresses and looking to settle down. If there's one thing we know about Ianto, you see, it's that he is wickedly loyal, faithful and, one would assume, MONOGAMOUS. Yet suddenly, since Adam, the relationship seems to have taken a turn into roleplaying toy-based sexamalympics. There's been no emotional connection since the kiss in TTLM. What bugs me is that Ianto is shown to be perfectly satisfied with this turn of events. It's almost like the Date Conversation never happened.

Now, I can buy that Jack is capable of loving more than one person. I can buy that Jack loves Gwen. I can even buy that Ianto is perfectly happy to know this and not care. That all makes perfect sense to me. What I can't buy is that Ianto has become such a lovesick boytoy, so impressed with Jack's avant garde sexual prowess, that he is happy to settle back into his role as office based shag, taking whatever nuggets of affection Jack sees fit too throw his way. And it's not Ianto's character making me think that that's how the relationship has progressed, it's Jack's, yet again. Jack, who makes these grandiose declarations about the nature of love to Gwen. Jack, who pines after a long dead wife. Jack, who we thought perhaps was a bit more flexible when it came to who and how many people he gives his heart to, who is QUITE OBVIOUSLY showing us that he believes in OMGONETRUELOVE, and between the lines quite blatantly showing us that Ianto isn't in the running. NO AFFECTION, throwaway lines about red caps and "doing Ianto", that's no longer a guy trying to hide the fact that he's in love with one of his subordinates, that's an omnisexual slut, not at all embarrassed about what he and the teaboy do with hockey sticks. AND I WOULD BE FINE WITH ALL THAT. If it weren't for the date conversation telling me that Ianto wants more, and Ianto's fawning in this episode blatanly telling us HE IS WICKED IN LOVE WITH JACK. Why is he settling for this? What have they done to my boy? Who said in the first episode that some fetishes should be kept to yourself? How many fetishes have he and Jack been broadcasting to the world since Adam? There's something so OFF in this relationship, and I think it's something you either see and hate or you just don't notice AT ALL.

One of the things that squicks me is Jack's flippancy about past conquests (all male, have we noticed yet??) and his obvious love for Gwen and DeadWife. It's almost like the implication is that while dabbling and sexual gymnastics is something Jack does with men, settling down is something he does with women. And Ianto and that dress? Just makes me feel like Jack hasn't yet let Ianto in on that fact, and the joke's on him. Ha ha.

NONE OF THE ABOVE MAKES ANY SENSE, I AM AWARE OF THAT, I JUST CAN'T PUT MY FINGER ON WHAT IS WRONG IN JANTOLAND. I JUST... HATE IT.

Comments

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

While we are approaching this from utterly different starting points we have reached the completely SAME conclusions and with the exception of one point it makes me deliriously happy. I love the acknowledgement that is IS just sex. Pizza, Ianto, saving the world. Not even first Heheheh.

It's almost like the implication is that while dabbling and sexual gymnastics is something Jack does with men, settling down is something he does with women.

I've actually been ranting about this since the original spoilers for KKBB. I want an omni-sexual Jack who fucks MEN AND WOMEN AND ALIENS. (Which is I'm virulently anti--J/I schmoop.) I hate the idea of Jack with sort a madonna/whore split between women and men. Blech.

[tencrush]

I'm also against J/I schmoop as such, but only in as much as I'm AGAINST JACK SCHMOOPING WITH ANYONE. And what they seem to keep telling us, especially in this episode, is that Jack DOES INDEED SCHMOOP, but for some reason Ianto is undeserving of the Jack!Schmoop, or men in general are undeserving of the schmoop. Russell has this sickmakingly apologetic and slightly embarrassed way of portraying gay relationships sometimes, and the purely carnal nature of this one is one that I find offensive. Especially as it's being implied that there is unrequited love there, and Jack really doesn't give a damn. Way to make your hero look like a dick. Agsin.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Shush you, the audience ADORES seeing our heroes have unrequited love for each other.

[tencrush]

Yes, the audience loves it when their hero is unable or unwilling to SIT THE FUCK DOWN and tell their hero-worshipping, mortgage-desiring, wedding-dress-fancying companion that yes, they can offer them time-space luls/UNIT-based roleplay, but THAT'S IT, so get over it already, take what's on offer or piss off. The audience prefers their heroes to string the doe-eyed love interests along indefinitely with vague promises and glimmers of hope that they have no intention of following up on, until the Clueless Ones inevitably die/get stuck in a parallel universe, still high on promises of what could have been.

[off_coloratura]

I dunno... I felt like it was the wedding that was making Jack momentarily pull away from Ianto, because of 1) whatever the fuck is up with him and Gwen, and 2) his past wedding memories surfacing and turning him into Sad Past Jack.

As for Ianto, the wedding had the opposite effect, making him want to be closer to Jack (the dress, the dance). We'll see what happens with them now that it's over and done with. I still have hope.

[tencrush]

I don't even really actively ship them, what the fuck's up with that? I'm just mostly pissed because since Adam, the relationship seems to have been downgraded to a handy device for making cheap jokes about mansex and kink. I take my mansex and kink way too seriously for that.

[buttercupgaud.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you should say this. In my house all 6 of us watch TW together and we're united in our hating of Jack/Gwen (although not in liking Jack/Ianto or disliking Gwen generally). My (male and straight) housemate was talking to me about what he found annoying about the whole, 'who does Jack really like' thing, and it was exactly that. That the gay relationship is shown as having no real feelings. Like two men cannot share what a man and a woman share. I hadn't seen it like that, but since then he seems to have been proven right. Jack makes jokes about his male partners, but never says they were serious or that he loved them. The only women he's ever mentioned have ALL been really serious and committed. It's so frustrating. I'm not sure what the writers are playing at. I hated the way Ianto had to ask to cut in and was ignored, it was cringe-making. I hated that even when Ianto was RIGHT THERE Jack STILL looked at Gwen. It really undermined the relationship. They could have made it a little better if at least Ianto had come in when Jack was looking at the photos and Jack opened up, or smiled and put them away or something. But no. It was like he'd had his end away and was now free to emote to his hearts content. I don't mind Jack loving Gwen (this is a semi-lie, as I see no chemistry), or not wanting Ianto but stop with the mixed signals and making Ianto look really stupid. Sorry, for the huge rant.

[tencrush]

Rant away, I agree. I find it mind boggling that Russell, a GAY MAN, would throw away what could be an accepted (even applauded and encouraged by most of the audience) potentially healthy and loving openly gay relationship, and choose instead to downplay it for cheap innuendo and laughs to such an extent that it starts to annoy ME, a HETEROSEXUAL WOMAN.

[shamazipan.livejournal.com]

I am a massive Janto shipper. Huge. Up until something borrowed I thought I knew where the relationship between the boys was. Now I am very confused and feeling that Ianto is being sold way short. He is smart. We know that! Ianto knows everything. He is also capable of being very brave, and very active in fighting for a relationship to the death (hello, Lisa?). Ianto's feelings for Jack have always seemed more than the sex (Brokeback Torchwood jacket sniffing anyone?) so why is he content to be pushed to the back burner.

However, in TTLM and Adam, Jack showed real affection for Ianto. It was his faith in Ianto that saved them all in Adam - where has that gone?

I read Ianto's exchange with Martha as flippant because Jack told her that they have kinky man sex. That was all Jack told her. Would Ianto open up and spill his heart on that basis, just for Martha to find out jack is not on the same page and pity him? No he wouldn't. As much as I love Janto I feel that they need to either need to end it, or put them back on a level footing and give Ianto some respect.

[tencrush]

Yeah, and as you say there EXACTLY, Ianto's flippancy towards Martha (and his apologetic attitude towards Owen later) shows that Ianto, who's not an idiot, knows full well that Jack isn't on the same page as he is, and doesn't want to look a fool were Martha to check back in with Jack on the subject (and also doesn't want Jack to know the extent of his feelings?) It makes Ianto such a pathetic lovesick fool, which is what I thought they were trying to steer away from in KKBB. He's settling for unrequited now, and I don't understand why.

[ourmutualfiend.livejournal.com]

I've been reading your TW posts all season- much love- and I'm finally going to comment.

I have to think the whole thing is some big galactic joke on behalf of the writers "Ahaha, you want Jack and Ianto? Fine here you go. One caveat: Jack will be in love with Gwen the whole time!"

Mwahaha. Twirly-twirly moustaches.

[tencrush]

Mwah hah... and you know why, of course... Russell doesn't even LIKE gay people! Ha! He's funny like that, it's one of those externalised self-loathing things, you know? It's complicated, but yeah, he hates seeing gay people happy. LOL.

*squints at PSP*
Is that Garth Marenghi?
It's egg, in soup.

[ionlylurkhere.livejournal.com]

Can we blame it on Barrowman's acting?

[tencrush]

OF COURSE WE CAN!!

:)

[cloverdilly.livejournal.com]

Oh, my gosh, I can't help but agree with this whole thing. I live in a wishful-thinking bubble where this big picture/big love thing is happily ignored for the little details like the man-to-man sexual innuendo, but when I'm no being delusional that all is well and that Jack is a hero with integrity and a man of his word, everything you said here is so true. And Jack's a big, selfish boy, and all this "free love" thing of Jack is a crap excuse for it. Grr.

[tencrush]

I think it's interesting, also, that we were shown a glimpse of Jack's childhood, and far from being some sort of futuristic polyamorous love-in like he would lead us to believe, he comes from, and it would appear to be the norm, a traditional mum and dad type family. Se he does know about monogamy and romance and settling down. I just wonder if it's anything he's ever even considered doing with a man.

[tencrush]

I think Ianto's madly in love with him. I think possibly one of the reasons that that bothers me is that it's been implied, both on and off screen, that this is Ianto's first same-sex relationship. A lot of his slightly ambiguous behaviour therefore comes across to us, the viewer, as uncertainty as to how to behave, what to do and where the boundaries lie. With Jack's experience and history, I think we expect more from him in the way of guidance, assurance and, above all, clarity, and we're not being shown that, which makes it look very much like Jack is happy to throw Ianto to the wolves and let him figure it all out on his own. Poor Ianto. :(

[frozenn.livejournal.com]

It's almost like the implication is that while dabbling and sexual gymnastics is something Jack does with men, settling down is something he does with women.

Couldn't agree with you more on this point and this is precisely what has been bothering me as well the last few episodes. And to think this comes from RTD who's a gay man, apparently creating a show that is meant to show same sex relationship in a more positive light along with straight relationships. I just feel Torchwoord is just going downhill nowadays and I just hate it. :(

[tencrush]

*nods* In playing up the toys and fun and games aspect of their sex life (which is FINE BY ME, don't get me wrong, I'm VERY SUPPORTIVE of sexual weirdness) one would assume, for laughs, they're actually writing OUT any possibility of emotional attachment. Ianto seems IN AWE of Jack's bedroom skills, but this is coming from a guy who stated plainly that he wanted things to prgress outside of the bedroom and we haven't been shown any of that progression. If we're meant to be ASSUMING that it HAS progressed to outside of the bedroom, then Jack's characterisation is doing a really bad job of making us believe that, and Ianto's puppy eyes at Jack are actually serving to make us believe that Jack has somehow silenced Ianto's demands for emotional depth, possibly by ramming his magical futuristic cock in his mouth.

[ivy-b.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't bury the Jack/Ianto relationship just yet. This was an emotional episode for Jack- not only Gwen getting married (whether he loves her or is just afraid of losing her as a friend) but also memories of his own marriage that probably popped up. I agree this episode wasn't very good for that shipping, but it's not something that can't be fixed in an episode or two when Jack gets out of his funk.

As for Jack's "pizza, Ianto..." Ianto told Martha that they "dabble", so they're both downplaying it. Plus it's Jack, he always makes jokes like that.

Lack of chemistry during the dance between Jack and Ianto? I'll say Jack's being tired and Emo and not really there, which to me explains the lack of chemistry in the Jack/Martha kiss.

I'm not a shipper, I like Jack/anyone (besides Owen, that's strictly father/son) but I don't want Jack and Gwen to get together, cause I adore Rhys and Jack's always been very supportive of their relationship.

I think we don't know enough about the Jack/Ianto relationship to really say what's going on there. They never show them talking about it, so we don't really know if they're exclusive or if Jack told him he can't commit, or what not.

I'd give it a few more episodes- I think we might see some Ianto/Jack in the next two episodes (just a feeling based on very vague rumors) and then people can take the shipping apart.

[tencrush]

Oh, I haven't buried anything, I know the rumours of which you speak, and I'm secretly hoping the entire relationship will redeem itself in the next two episodes and possibly even some of the issues being discussed here will be addressed.

The downplaying is one of the things I have a problem with, though. I see the downplaying on Ianto's part as embarrassment and a reluctance to admit how he feels, possibly because he knows Jack doesn't feel the same way, that's how it's coming across to me. Jack's joking about Ianto is the one that really gets me, though, because I feel it puts Ianto firmly in the "I had a boyfriend whose nostrils would flare"/twin acrobat sexual conquest category. It's the ones Jack DOESN'T joke about, or even bloody mention (strangely all women) that seem to be the people he cares about. Making it seem to me that Ianto is not a candidate for a serious relationship, and Jack is stringing him along despite knowing full well that a serious relationship is what Ianto is after.

[tencrush]

LOL. And it's good to know ALL PEOPLE have that kink. Especially where Ianto is concerned.

[unmikely.livejournal.com]

Nah. You're all crazy. :P

Ianto is Mr. Make Everything Run Smoothly. Remember his comment on the drive to the wedding about "the happy couple just want everything to be perfect on their day"? I think he was reminding Jack to keep Torchwood practicality out of it, in a way. So in following, he would have been glad jack danced with her and gave her his blessing to go have a nice normal honeymoon. And then before her big day got too Torchwooded up, Ianto cuts in and let's Gwen go off to be with her family.

Also, the awkward dress buying scene fits with ianto as wedding fairy. In that scene we see he's willing to go through uncomfortable situations to help preserve Gwen's real life, including dancing with Jack in public to send Gwen back to her TW3-free fun.

[unmikely.livejournal.com]

I so wasn't finished typing when that posted. Goodbye train of thought.

Anyways... I also kind of liked Jack and Ianto dancing being "no big deal". It's not like Jack/Jack where you know it's the only time they'll get to dance ever. This seems more like they have danced and will dance again, something something... yeah, you really can't catch a train once it's passed.

[galaxy-song.livejournal.com]

I have come to the conclusion that none of the writers talk to each other or even watch the other episodes. They all have there own idea of what they want to happen and are just going for it.

I hate to admit it but what you are saying about Jack only wanting to settle down with a woman and be with men for fun sounds just about right with what we have seen.

You would think RTD would know better I cant really blame the actors for all of the confusion when they arent the ones writing the script.

As for Jack Gwen *head desk* theres not enough keys on my keyboard for that rant.

[tencrush]

Yeah Jack's female/male madonna/whore thing does seem to be striking a wrong note with a lot of people, and it's something that the script could have easily avoided. I think it's hard from a writing point of view, and I think it's probably just a case of the writers being acutely aware that Jack saying something like "I once shagged a chick who..." immediately would come across as misogynistic/sexist/whatever and so they don't want to go there. But in avoiding that, they've really made him look like he does men for kicks and women for the long term commitment.

[stopwatch-plz.livejournal.com]

You make some interesting points - esp with the "dabbling"/"It's not like that scenes" without any further explanation... I do feel like the team are starting to get suspicious of their "relationship" - in whatever way - and it makes for awkward dynamics and scene that just don't play right.

I know the writers said they wouldn't portray Jack in any "intimate scenarios", but that tends to make it seem less important that anything else. Which is sad, becuase it has (had?) such promise... But Jack's character was such a bastard to Owen in DMW I'm a bit "Whatever" about him atm. Which is sad also.

I'm sure it's just the curse of Lack of TW Continuity that's making it sit so awkwardly, but if you're going to make bold statements about sexuality like that, you have to go all or nothing. Having a character that uses their poly/pansexuality badly is worse than not having it represented at all - I think that's what pisses me off the most!

I read an interview with GDL in DeathRay mag who says about the relationship "...as far as Ianto is concerned, it's a serious thing" and yeah, having been in situations like that, I just want to scream "RUN AWAY!!" at the TV *lol*

I can understand the writers are in a very precarious situation with portraying stuff like this, but doing it badly is a million times worse than just not doing it at all.

[tencrush]

Yeah, I think as far as Ianto is concerned, it's very obviously a Serious Thing. The whole deal with Lisa, plus the actually rather telling fact that Ianto is the ONLY CHARACTER who has never been shown to have casual sex (even Tosh, who is IN LOVE WITH OWEN, has had casual fucks on a number of accasions), kind of shows us that Ianto isn't really the kind of guy who does casual, and worse than that, I think that's something that Jack is more than aware of, which makes it all the worse that Jack's being shown to be taking such a flippant attitude towards the relationship.

All of which reminds me of the problem I had in season one with the relationship, and that was the implication that, if Jack KNOWS Ianto doesn't do casual, yet he casually fucks Ianto regardless, that makes "harassment" far less of a joke and far more of a reality, and it implies a slightly manipulative side to Jack, who has seen the depths of Ianto's devotion with Lisa, and the possibility that Jack has knowingly entered into this relationship, thinking that redirecting Ianto's obvious passion and devotion towards Jack would be beneficial for all concerned. Ouch.

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank GODS it wasn't just me!

I've been worrying at this for weeks. Bear in mind that I watch the episodes first very early on Thursday morning. (Don't ask, just bear that in mind.) And I haven't rewatched 09 yet, so I thought maybe it was my sleep-muddied imagination. But, yes, this was bothering me for a reason. And, yes, it's been going on for weeks and IT HAS TO STOP!

I can forgive RTD for not having complete control, no matter how much we can with he did, of his show. There are writers who are not in total agreement on everything. (The three-story Martha arc? Three stories. I didn't think they were at all well-connected, despite Owen's predicament.) But Barrowman surely saw this in the dailies, and I cannot accept that he's let it go without a fight unless he knows something not yet shown will have an impact. I'm holding out for that. Despite the fact that I have as yet to read an interview with him where he admits to watching the dailies. I can't believe an old queen like Barrowman doesn't revel in seeing himself on screen. Especially in THAT coat! LOL!

I know there's no way they can find a girlfriend for Ianto that will satisfy any of the fans. But he's too good a character to be the teaboy and part-time shag for the boss. They need to end it or make it work. This fifty-fifty split is just annoying.

And at the moment I hate Jack with such a passion I hope Gwen turns on him as soon as she comes back from her honeymoon. And while not a Gwack shipper, I do like the friendship between them. And I REALLY want to see Tosh discover the backbone she developed in Adam before she was retconned, and turn on Jack, too. Leave him with Owen as his only friend. HAH! That'll do Jack some good!

[tencrush]

Yeah, I'm not too sure either, what with having Russell AND John on board, I find it hard to believe that what is turning out to be such a negative portrayal of teh Ghey would have really slipped past them. But then I know how easy it is to read over one's own spelling mistakes umpteen times and really not be able to see them until someone else points them out.

I fear people like Russell and John may be so immersed in this show that they're unable to see the impact things have until they have that impact and it's already too late. Kind of like Owen's LOLlerrific rape spray.

[candesgirl.livejournal.com]

I am almost afraid to post this here, for fear of having stuff thrown at me, but I had to say something....I just don't agree with what you are saying at all, and I know that in this thread of posts it puts me in the vast minority.

Ok, we know that Jack was married to a woman and had a serious thing with Estelle. That means he can only "settle" down with women? Just because we are getting a glimpse of that does not make it a universal truth. Yeah, he mentions men he has had sex with a lot, but you know, the shock factor is so much better there than stating the same about his female partners. As for the Gwen/Jack scenario, I do think Jack loves her, but not in the same way he loves Ianto. He loves every member of that team in one way or another, but is obviously connected most to Gwen and Ianto. Maybe there is a longing for Gwen the actual character, but it feels to me more like a longing for what she has, for the grand idea of it all. I didn't care for their moment when they were dancing to be honest, but I can see the point of it. There is mutual attraction there, sure, and maybe a hint of what could have been or what could be....But in the end, she is with Rhys, where Jack knows she belongs.

Also, have to say that I think Jack was very much in love with The Doctor, an alien sure, but in the form of a male.

Anyway, the Ianto bit....Where has his character at all said he is not liking the relationship as is? And who is to say that Jack is not taking it seriously. Because they "dabble" " (Ianto's choice of words, not Jack's. He could have said anything to Martha, he chose to be coy.) It isn't as if we see Jack cavorting with anyone, or as a matter of fact, we see him with no one. The same basic principle applies to he and Ianto as with he and Gwen, in the end it can never be the happily ever after, white picket fence and all. Jack will live, everyone else will die. It will hurt. And that has to factor in to it.

As for Jack pining away over said dead wife, well after a wedding would be the time to do that wouldn't it? You don't just stop loving someone because they died, do you? I would imagine even a hundred years later it would still sting, and the memories of those you loved, man, woman, alien, whatever....Would still haunt you and pain you.

The dress thing I thought was super funny, went along well with Ianto calling himself the wedding fairy. I thought it was funny and I don't see how it made a statemtent about him and Jack and their relationship so much as it being a good joke. Same goes for the comment about "doing" Ianto. Jack and Gwen got a chuckle out of it, and I don't think it was meant as derogatory or anything like that. I thought it was actually kind of cute.

So yeah, throwing in my two cents or whatever. Hope someone out there agrees with me!

[tencrush]

I'm not claiming that Ianto's unhappy with the relationship as it stands, I'm complaining about a certain lack of character continuity (there's that old TW chestnut again!) in the fact that they're showing us Ianto IS happy with the relationship as it stands. My general complaint is that they're choosing to play up the sex for laughs (also in the "doing Ianto" comment), which is making it harder and harder to buy that there's more to the relationship than sex.

he mentions men he has had sex with a lot, but you know, the shock factor is so much better there than stating the same about his female partners
Again, that is something that seems to imply that Jack views the two differently, though. He's supposed to be so enlightened and omnisexual and yet he is shown to be making a distinction there.

[1flying-wonder.livejournal.com]

I find this whole thing interesting, and while I share the frustration of those who would like to see some deeper and more emotional interactions between Jack and Ianto, since we haven't had any since Adam other that Ianto's clarification to Owen, I don't really share the general pessimism that seems to be going around on the subject (yet). Why? Well, here are a few of my thoughts on the issue.

I was surprised to see people getting so upset about he "dabbling" line. To me, Ianto was being asked about a very personal thing by someone he barely knows. He has no idea how to react. He is surprised by her question, probably surprised that Jack mentioned him specifically to her, and not knowing her has no idea how she would react to a relationship between he and Jack. Disgust? Jealousy? I heard the dabbling bit as simply an off-handed reply to try and deflect the personal question. Cause right after that when Martha seems utterly delighted by the prospect and asks "yeah?" you and watch him physically relax and answer with a much more confident and secure "Yeah." clearly stating to Martha that yes he and Jack are seeing one another.

The whole "Doing Pizza and Ianto" thing is just Jack. A reflection of his continual need to stick sexual references into every conversation he has (not one of my favorite traits) as well as his habit of deflecting any conversation that could lead to him having to actually share something personal about himself with anyone. Which brings me to the 2 major things that people seem to not be taking into consideration about Jack & Ianto:

CONTINUED IN PART 2
(Holy crap! My comment is so long they won't let me post it! So the second part is in a reply to myself. Sorry!)

[1flying-wonder.livejournal.com]

PART 2...

A) Jack is a broken man. He puts on the heroic, "I'm in control and nothing bothers me" front, but the truth is Jack is terribly insecure and needy, he has horrific abandonment issues and, in many ways, believe he thinks he has nothing to offer anyone. He trys to protect himself from all these things through off-handed banter, turning everything into a punchline, being as mysterious as possible and keeping people at an emotional distance. The fact that Ianto even gets him to agree to try more than just shagging is a minor miracle.

Gwen is important to Jack and always will be because she has been the catalyst in helping Jack realize that cutting himself off emotionally to keep himself safe or to better deal with the job isn't working. For him or for the people he is trying to protect. She has also been, since her engagement, a constant reminder of what was (I would guess)one of the biggest relationship disasters and heart breaks of Jack's life. And based on what we know about Jack's personality, I'm sure what he regards as one of his biggest failures or areas of inadequacy (I say this cause based on the time period of the wedding photo I'm thinking that may have been when he realized his immortality). Jack's immortality will NEVER allow him to have the life that Gwen and Rhys will have. And after having cut himself off emotionally for so long, Jack is mourning that all over again. What does he have to offer anyone? How can he open himself up to anyone knowing he WILL lose them? All those things he lists to Gwen as reasons Rhys will be such a good husband are things he doubts that he will ever be able to offer anyone. He is a truly broken man.

B) No one seems to be giving Ianto enough credit. Why is there this assumption that Ianto is madly, puppy love crazy about Jack? Were there scenes where Ianto started bringing Jack flowers and candy and writing sonnets about his undying love that I missed? It is clear that Ianto is very fond of Jack and cares about him on a deeper level, and there is basically his statement that he wants an opportunity to get to know him better and expects the same in return when Jack asks him out, but I think that people too often cross the devotion and loyalty of Ianto's working relationship with Jack and his personal one. Employee Ianto worships Jack. He would do anything for him. Follow any order, lay down his life, defend Jack to the end. Personal Ianto has plenty of his own emotional baggage and he knows it. He also knows Jack. Ianto wants it to be more than shagging because, while that got them through a tough time, it does neither of them any good in the long run. There has to be an openness to something more or it isn't healthy for either of them. It's just them hiding from themselves. At the beginning of season 2 Ianto has decided he is ready to start trying to reach out again emotionally and if Jack still wants to be with him, he expects Jack to at least try too.

Yeah, I want to see more emotional development (and hopefully we are gonna get some coming up), but these are 2 dysfunctional people working on something that is going to take serious time and patience if it's going to work at all. I don't know that either of them expect to succeed, but I think they both know they have to try.

This is the longest comment ever! Sorry!

[xtricks.livejournal.com]

I think one thing to remember is that – IMO – the wedding episode was intended to be, more or less, a parody or a comedy of errors. All the minor characters and many of the scenes were parodies of various types of stories; giving birth in the ‘manger’?, the chainsaw?, the evil mother in law?, Ianto and the wedding dress?, JB’s over-acting the shape shifting alien? – okay, maybe that was his regular acting but still – and I think that a lot of normal characterization was kind of tossed out the window to allow the writers to have fun with what is a hugely, ridiculously, clichéd sci-fi trope. Alien!baby FTW!

I have noticed that Torchwood writers do have a tendency to screw long-term characterization for short term story arcs (IMO, Jack’s characterization was screwed over to give Owen’s story-line in ‘A Day in the Death’ a bigger impact), and I think, as fandom, we’ll just have to accept that. And write more stories. :p

More seriously, I do belive that Jack loves Gwen and that feeling is reciprocated. However, Gwen’s made it quite clear that she wants some stability somewhere and both of them are quite aware that Jack isn’t the man for that. I think they both regret that and I think it hurts them both but they’ve chosen not to persue that attraction. And, if that’s true, then Jack (and Ianto, not being stupid) are aware that their relationship is not built on the long term, or stability and either they have come to terms with that, or will, or it will/can be an issue in their relationship. IMO – Jack and Ianto’s relationship, whatever it is, is not yet settled and neither of them really know what it is yet – and a simple sexual one is the easiest to negotiate and talk about. Since TW isn’t going to do any sex scenes with Jack, we will probably never get equal billing to scenes like Owen/Diane or even some Gwen/Rhys so Ianto and Jack will always look less serious by comparison. Sucks but such is life.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Since TW isn’t going to do any sex scenes with Jack,

SAY WHAT? Is this written in stone because Jack is technically a Dr. Who character and therefore not eligible for sex scenes?

Of course JB looking at someone is pretty much a sex scene, but still...

[jbs-teeth.livejournal.com]

I think there is a lot to agree with here, in both the post and everyone's comments; having said that, though, I do wonder whether gender and orientation, as it were, would be quite such an issue if Gwen was kick-ass (at least as kick-ass as Ianto) or if anyone liked her even a little bit. Had Gwen many of the awesome characteristics that Ianto posses -- gorgeous and smart, funny as hell, impeccable work attire, efficiency in action (I really like how he wields that stun gun: "Tell me what I need to know.... Thanks. ZAP. Next?!" ) -- then I don't think people would have a problem with it. The core issue is that there is no earthly reason I can think of for Jack's feelings; they've given us no montage of Gwack building something together or training for a big match with Night Ranger playing in the background (that's how people really fall in love, right?), nor is she awesome enough to inspire love from afar.

Or, you might think about it this way: If in his next incarnation the Doctor were to be a woman, and retain all the awesome sauce of the doctors before, would it really be awful for Jack to carry on loving the Doctor exactly as he does now? I don't think so. Nor would I be upset if his feelings for the Doctor were to take a larger plot role, should such a gender switch happen.

By the same token, if Ianto were all self-righteous and whiny, I don't think the audience would be clamoring for a healthy same-sex portrayal. (Buffy-verse analogy here: I love me some Buffy + Angel, but I also LOVE me some Buffy + Spike because Spike owns, period. On the other hand, Angel + Cordelia = GROSS because she is stupid and boring. So, if Jack is Buff, Gwen is like Cordy and Ianto is Spike-like hotness.)

Bottom line: Jack + Gwen = Timeless Love does not add up, regardless of the couple's orientation, because Gwen being the object of all that timeless adoration is just unbelievable at the most fundamental level.

On the other issue, of Jack's treatment of Ianto, the more I think about the conference room retconning scene, the more uncomfortable I feel about their relationship. For me, the defining moment of Janto's shift toward ick was when Ianto thinks about the devastation he felt at Lisa's death and says to Jack, "You gave me meaning again."

At this point, Ianto clearly adores -- worships, even -- Jack in an unconditional sort of way, and deeply enough that brains don't enter in to the scenario. I like to think of myself as a damn smart woman -- damn smart -- and haven't I fallen madly for someone that I KNOW does not feel the same way, who clearly only used me as a substitute girlfriend? Uh... hello. Yes. Did I know what was happening the whole time? Yes. Did it make a difference to the way I felt? No. I did what I could to protect myself, as Ianto appeared to be doing in the first half of the season, but it takes a lot for a person to wean themselves off the delusions of the love crack (hello, Martha at the end of DW season 3?).

Anyway, I think Jack is a tool because there is an obvious power inequity here, and he knows it but takes advantage anyway. Obviously, he's Ianto's boss, and there's definitely repercussions there. But, also, after a statement like "You give me meaning," he should know by persisting with Ianto he's just shamelessly exploiting those feelings. (In a recent fic I wrote that to Jack, their escapades are "a creative form of self-congratulation and masturbation" and it rings true more than ever.) "Doing pizza and Ianto" in this context is just... ew. Guh, like he doesn't even respect Ianto enough to afford him some privacy (like some prototypical jock who talks about the girl he banged in his car last night).

And that's pretty damn unforgivable.

[tencrush]

The Adam speech... gosh, I'd forgotten all about that. And here's me trying to figure out why I had squick after that episode, how dumb am I. You're completely right. It's gross.

Last season, my fear was that after Lisa, Jack saw in Ianto a man capable of INCREDIBLE devotion, and Jack responded to Ianto's advances purely in the hope of engineering a situation in which that devotion would be directed towards him, Jack, instead. I'm getting those vibes again.

[masb1987.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, Jack's capable of two types of relationships: Fun flings, which are what he tells "amusing anecdotes" about, and loving relationships, which he doesn't talk about. Sadly, I think Ianto is just a fun fling. Which is sad, because Jack doesn't seem to have any respect for his flings. They're just jokes to tell to other people over beers. But the people who he loves and respects... he keeps in a box (or a jar ;)) It's especially sad because it's pretty clear how much Ianto loves and respects Jack. Maybe Jack does love Ianto in some way, but I haven't seen much respect on Jack's part.

[hessarella.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen Something Borrowed yet, so I'll keep my fingers tightly crossed that I don't see what you saw in it. If my fingers lose all circulation and fall off due to this, please know I hold you responsible. Just kidding.

I don't like the way the relationship's going, but at the same time, it strikes a very honest chord. Perhaps I'm young and haven't seen as much of the world as a lot of other LJ users, but I find a lot of aspects of Torchwood very honest. It's easy to identify with the character of Tosh, for instance. while Im not her greatest fan, her desperation in feeling she needs a Significant Other and probably not realizing quite what she's doing throwing herself at pretty much anyone that shows her a small bit of affection is very, very possible and likely. I think something similar is happening with the Janto-relationship. While it's embarassing to watch for anyone who's slightly detached and looking in on it, I think many people can identify with Ianto, so desperate to cling on to Jack that he barely realizes how far down his list of priorities he's putting himself. He'll probably snap out of it one day, and then be really embarassed.
I would very much like to see a happy, healthy, gay relationship portrayed somewhere in popular culture though (I guess Willow/Tara is the closest it gets), as I've never actually seen it work in real life (my uncle is gay-married/civil partnership'd, and his spouse is a manipulative, sanctimonious bastard, and one of my best friends is a lesbian who [it seems to me, like Ianto,] has lost her backbone in order to keep her girlfriend. Perhaps that's getting too personal, but I hope you see my point).

I do think Jack should lose his Omni-licensce. I get annoyed at the TV-guides whenever they call him bi, but he's really seeming to be heading that way. After all, so far as I can currently remember (and I'm having a bad-memory day, please feel free to prove me wrong) we've seen him flirt with the Trinny and Susanna-droids and there was obviously somehting between him and the Ninth Doctor, but that was all hundreds of years ago (for him), and recently he seems to have been going only for men and women, though (apart from possibly Gwen, although it's written into the script I really don't see the chemistry there) the women all seem to have been fairly long ago.

Reordered episodes

[tapsui.livejournal.com]

Absolutely fascinating debate - much thanks for starting/hosting it! I'd be scared by how much time/thought I'm investing in this one episode except that (a) I LOVE it (the investing, not the ep.!) and (b) it's so cool to see I'm not alone :-) Great to see everything dragged into the light of day that squicked me during watching the ep.

Reading the exchanges about the confusion/inconsistency being caused by the acting/directing/writing, I did just wonder how much the apparent post-production reordering of the episodes may be adding to the problem. I've read numerous references to JB mentioning (in his book I think) that he and GDL had a prolonged kissage scene that the director "forgot" to say "cut" on, which was in an early ep. that got shunted to later in the series... Soooo, wondering whether the original ep. order would have given a different J/I relationship development?

Just 'spekilating' here :-))

[ironedpolyester.livejournal.com]

Words cannot express how much I agree with your rant/review. I just watched the entire episode and the dance scene was painful, I felt that bad for Ianto. And I kinda wanted to smack Jack.

The whole scenario pisses me off frankly. Especially now that Gwen is married. This Jack/Gwen stuff needs to stop. Now. I don't want to see Rhys hurt, and it's pretty much a given that Ianto is going to get seriously burned from this "relationship."

Argh. To quote Rhys, "Bastard Torchwood."

[tintop-lizzy.livejournal.com]

"Pizza, Ianto..."

He didn't even put Ianto first in a list of two! This proves to me that Jack is a zillion years old and fifteen at the same time... bloke-typical behavour.

I love my fandom, you guys XXX