How they killed my Janto, dudes.
Mar. 6th, 2008 07:40 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tencrushI'm still full of hate after Something Borrowed, and I'll attempt to explain why.
In Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, we were given a promising glimpse of Ianto-with-a-spine. He basically stated he wasn't interested in being Jack's part time office shag and wanted more, or no deal. Jack seemed to be au fait with this and looked to be pursuing the relationship. My little shipper heart went YAY, and that didn't really change, especially after To The Last Man, when I, along with everyone else in the world, pretty much saw what appeared to be a declaration of love from Jack. OMG WOW. Then... what the fuck happened?
I started to develop hate when Ianto said he and Jack 'dabbled'. While I could defend Jack's trying to hide the relationship based on what he said in Meat (he has an emotional investment, it makes you vulnerable, and he really shouldn't be forming EMOTIONAL bonds with his team, because it affects his abilities as their leader, yeah? Fine.), here, though, we suddenly have Ianto downplaying what I had assumed was an emotional attachment to Jack, and why? Dead Man Walking, again, shows Ianto on the defensive with regards to the relationship. "It's not like that", right, OK. Funnily enough, Ianto seems too unsure to expand and tell Owen what it IS, in fact, like. He's become almost apologetic, and why? Oh, roll on Something Borrowed, HERE'S WHY! He's IN LOVE. He's a lovesick puppy, thinking about wedding dresses and looking to settle down. If there's one thing we know about Ianto, you see, it's that he is wickedly loyal, faithful and, one would assume, MONOGAMOUS. Yet suddenly, since Adam, the relationship seems to have taken a turn into roleplaying toy-based sexamalympics. There's been no emotional connection since the kiss in TTLM. What bugs me is that Ianto is shown to be perfectly satisfied with this turn of events. It's almost like the Date Conversation never happened.
Now, I can buy that Jack is capable of loving more than one person. I can buy that Jack loves Gwen. I can even buy that Ianto is perfectly happy to know this and not care. That all makes perfect sense to me. What I can't buy is that Ianto has become such a lovesick boytoy, so impressed with Jack's avant garde sexual prowess, that he is happy to settle back into his role as office based shag, taking whatever nuggets of affection Jack sees fit too throw his way. And it's not Ianto's character making me think that that's how the relationship has progressed, it's Jack's, yet again. Jack, who makes these grandiose declarations about the nature of love to Gwen. Jack, who pines after a long dead wife. Jack, who we thought perhaps was a bit more flexible when it came to who and how many people he gives his heart to, who is QUITE OBVIOUSLY showing us that he believes in OMGONETRUELOVE, and between the lines quite blatantly showing us that Ianto isn't in the running. NO AFFECTION, throwaway lines about red caps and "doing Ianto", that's no longer a guy trying to hide the fact that he's in love with one of his subordinates, that's an omnisexual slut, not at all embarrassed about what he and the teaboy do with hockey sticks. AND I WOULD BE FINE WITH ALL THAT. If it weren't for the date conversation telling me that Ianto wants more, and Ianto's fawning in this episode blatanly telling us HE IS WICKED IN LOVE WITH JACK. Why is he settling for this? What have they done to my boy? Who said in the first episode that some fetishes should be kept to yourself? How many fetishes have he and Jack been broadcasting to the world since Adam? There's something so OFF in this relationship, and I think it's something you either see and hate or you just don't notice AT ALL.
One of the things that squicks me is Jack's flippancy about past conquests (all male, have we noticed yet??) and his obvious love for Gwen and DeadWife. It's almost like the implication is that while dabbling and sexual gymnastics is something Jack does with men, settling down is something he does with women. And Ianto and that dress? Just makes me feel like Jack hasn't yet let Ianto in on that fact, and the joke's on him. Ha ha.
NONE OF THE ABOVE MAKES ANY SENSE, I AM AWARE OF THAT, I JUST CAN'T PUT MY FINGER ON WHAT IS WRONG IN JANTOLAND. I JUST... HATE IT.
In Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, we were given a promising glimpse of Ianto-with-a-spine. He basically stated he wasn't interested in being Jack's part time office shag and wanted more, or no deal. Jack seemed to be au fait with this and looked to be pursuing the relationship. My little shipper heart went YAY, and that didn't really change, especially after To The Last Man, when I, along with everyone else in the world, pretty much saw what appeared to be a declaration of love from Jack. OMG WOW. Then... what the fuck happened?
I started to develop hate when Ianto said he and Jack 'dabbled'. While I could defend Jack's trying to hide the relationship based on what he said in Meat (he has an emotional investment, it makes you vulnerable, and he really shouldn't be forming EMOTIONAL bonds with his team, because it affects his abilities as their leader, yeah? Fine.), here, though, we suddenly have Ianto downplaying what I had assumed was an emotional attachment to Jack, and why? Dead Man Walking, again, shows Ianto on the defensive with regards to the relationship. "It's not like that", right, OK. Funnily enough, Ianto seems too unsure to expand and tell Owen what it IS, in fact, like. He's become almost apologetic, and why? Oh, roll on Something Borrowed, HERE'S WHY! He's IN LOVE. He's a lovesick puppy, thinking about wedding dresses and looking to settle down. If there's one thing we know about Ianto, you see, it's that he is wickedly loyal, faithful and, one would assume, MONOGAMOUS. Yet suddenly, since Adam, the relationship seems to have taken a turn into roleplaying toy-based sexamalympics. There's been no emotional connection since the kiss in TTLM. What bugs me is that Ianto is shown to be perfectly satisfied with this turn of events. It's almost like the Date Conversation never happened.
Now, I can buy that Jack is capable of loving more than one person. I can buy that Jack loves Gwen. I can even buy that Ianto is perfectly happy to know this and not care. That all makes perfect sense to me. What I can't buy is that Ianto has become such a lovesick boytoy, so impressed with Jack's avant garde sexual prowess, that he is happy to settle back into his role as office based shag, taking whatever nuggets of affection Jack sees fit too throw his way. And it's not Ianto's character making me think that that's how the relationship has progressed, it's Jack's, yet again. Jack, who makes these grandiose declarations about the nature of love to Gwen. Jack, who pines after a long dead wife. Jack, who we thought perhaps was a bit more flexible when it came to who and how many people he gives his heart to, who is QUITE OBVIOUSLY showing us that he believes in OMGONETRUELOVE, and between the lines quite blatantly showing us that Ianto isn't in the running. NO AFFECTION, throwaway lines about red caps and "doing Ianto", that's no longer a guy trying to hide the fact that he's in love with one of his subordinates, that's an omnisexual slut, not at all embarrassed about what he and the teaboy do with hockey sticks. AND I WOULD BE FINE WITH ALL THAT. If it weren't for the date conversation telling me that Ianto wants more, and Ianto's fawning in this episode blatanly telling us HE IS WICKED IN LOVE WITH JACK. Why is he settling for this? What have they done to my boy? Who said in the first episode that some fetishes should be kept to yourself? How many fetishes have he and Jack been broadcasting to the world since Adam? There's something so OFF in this relationship, and I think it's something you either see and hate or you just don't notice AT ALL.
One of the things that squicks me is Jack's flippancy about past conquests (all male, have we noticed yet??) and his obvious love for Gwen and DeadWife. It's almost like the implication is that while dabbling and sexual gymnastics is something Jack does with men, settling down is something he does with women. And Ianto and that dress? Just makes me feel like Jack hasn't yet let Ianto in on that fact, and the joke's on him. Ha ha.
NONE OF THE ABOVE MAKES ANY SENSE, I AM AWARE OF THAT, I JUST CAN'T PUT MY FINGER ON WHAT IS WRONG IN JANTOLAND. I JUST... HATE IT.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 04:56 pm (UTC)A) Jack is a broken man. He puts on the heroic, "I'm in control and nothing bothers me" front, but the truth is Jack is terribly insecure and needy, he has horrific abandonment issues and, in many ways, believe he thinks he has nothing to offer anyone. He trys to protect himself from all these things through off-handed banter, turning everything into a punchline, being as mysterious as possible and keeping people at an emotional distance. The fact that Ianto even gets him to agree to try more than just shagging is a minor miracle.
Gwen is important to Jack and always will be because she has been the catalyst in helping Jack realize that cutting himself off emotionally to keep himself safe or to better deal with the job isn't working. For him or for the people he is trying to protect. She has also been, since her engagement, a constant reminder of what was (I would guess)one of the biggest relationship disasters and heart breaks of Jack's life. And based on what we know about Jack's personality, I'm sure what he regards as one of his biggest failures or areas of inadequacy (I say this cause based on the time period of the wedding photo I'm thinking that may have been when he realized his immortality). Jack's immortality will NEVER allow him to have the life that Gwen and Rhys will have. And after having cut himself off emotionally for so long, Jack is mourning that all over again. What does he have to offer anyone? How can he open himself up to anyone knowing he WILL lose them? All those things he lists to Gwen as reasons Rhys will be such a good husband are things he doubts that he will ever be able to offer anyone. He is a truly broken man.
B) No one seems to be giving Ianto enough credit. Why is there this assumption that Ianto is madly, puppy love crazy about Jack? Were there scenes where Ianto started bringing Jack flowers and candy and writing sonnets about his undying love that I missed? It is clear that Ianto is very fond of Jack and cares about him on a deeper level, and there is basically his statement that he wants an opportunity to get to know him better and expects the same in return when Jack asks him out, but I think that people too often cross the devotion and loyalty of Ianto's working relationship with Jack and his personal one. Employee Ianto worships Jack. He would do anything for him. Follow any order, lay down his life, defend Jack to the end. Personal Ianto has plenty of his own emotional baggage and he knows it. He also knows Jack. Ianto wants it to be more than shagging because, while that got them through a tough time, it does neither of them any good in the long run. There has to be an openness to something more or it isn't healthy for either of them. It's just them hiding from themselves. At the beginning of season 2 Ianto has decided he is ready to start trying to reach out again emotionally and if Jack still wants to be with him, he expects Jack to at least try too.
Yeah, I want to see more emotional development (and hopefully we are gonna get some coming up), but these are 2 dysfunctional people working on something that is going to take serious time and patience if it's going to work at all. I don't know that either of them expect to succeed, but I think they both know they have to try.
This is the longest comment ever! Sorry!
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 05:10 pm (UTC)I never really got any puppy love from Ianto UNTIL this particular episode in which I thought he was particularly doe-eyed, generally. My speculation that Ianto has mega feelings for Jack is based more on the implication we've had througout BOTH seasons that Ianto isn't really a casual fuck kind of guy.
And generally, I just think the playing up of their sex games is detracting from any possible hints of depth to the relationship and it's starting to distract me to the point of annoyance.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 05:35 pm (UTC)That part does get old rather quickly. In this, I share your frustration.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-08 07:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 05:19 pm (UTC)And Ianto, yes, I agree that he gets no credit where credit is due. I do not see him walking around like a love sick puppy. He is also pretty broken, like you said, with plenty of emotional baggage. Their relationship reeks of complications and that makes it all that much better.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 05:40 pm (UTC)That's why I like it ;)
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 06:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 05:35 pm (UTC)Well, putting aside the coat-sniffing and general "Jack needs me" stuff from series 1, there's the wounded-puppy look on his face when he asks Jack if he's going back to the Doctor and the lead-up to the TTLM kiss, which is completely, "please don't leave me," not to mention the stink-eye he was giving Martha when Jack was sparkling at her. And he didn't look very happy about Jack's goo-goo eyes at Gwen in Meat, either.
Let's throw in his words during the Last Supper scene in Adam and I think you've got a Ianto is clearly IN LOVE with Jack and has been consistently portrayed that way.
What hasn't been consistent and is creating the ship war craziness is Jack's differing attitudes and responses over the course of the 2nd series which have been all over the map.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 06:00 pm (UTC)the wounded-puppy look on his face when he asks Jack if he's going back to the Doctor and the lead-up to the TTLM kiss, which is completely, "please don't leave me,"
For me that was "Are you planning on ditching us all again for the Doctor."
the stink-eye he was giving Martha when Jack was sparkling at her
I didn't notice any of that.
he didn't look very happy about Jack's goo-goo eyes at Gwen in Meat, either.
That looked more like a "Damn, this is getting a little intense" response.
Let's throw in his words during the Last Supper scene in Adam
Jack's asked them to remember things that define them. Ianto remembers meeting Lisa, loosing Lisa (which is as much about everything he lost at Canary Wharf as it is love), coming to Torchwood 3 and Jack. Jack's involvement was the catalyst to Ianto finally having to let go of the past (Lisa and the tragedy of Torchwood 1) and start living again. Of course he is a defining moment.
Just my impressions. I guess life would be quite boring if we all always saw thing the same way. :)
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 06:10 pm (UTC)Very true.
But watch Ianto standing in back of Martha while Jack is lit up like a Christmas tree at the sight of her. Oh that boy is pissed.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-08 01:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-08 01:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 06:46 pm (UTC)I thought about "you" as Jack representing Torchwood, but he's always had Torchwood, so that doesn't really fly.
And, as I said in my own comment, brains does not preclude anyone from falling madly into inadvisable and doomed love. Smarts usually only makes it worse because you know what you're doing while you're doing it, and can't stop yourself.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 07:32 pm (UTC)Deep emotional attachment absolutely. How else would you feel about someone who has helped define your life? But I guess I just don't see it as proof of romantic love or being "in love." There are several people who have helped define my life and given it meaning and I would lay down my life more them, but I'm not in love with them.
And, as I said in my own comment, brains does not preclude anyone from falling madly into inadvisable and doomed love. Smarts usually only makes it worse because you know what you're doing while you're doing it, and can't stop yourself.
That I would not argue with. It is all to true. And while I don't feel this relationship has reach that point yet, there is clearly the potential.
I like your icon by the way.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 07:44 pm (UTC)It's really all about the balance of power/priority in a relationship, and I'm pretty sure as a culture, we all agree that when that balance shifts too far to one side or the other the relationship is no longer supportable or healthy (and, in obviously much more extreme circumstances, illegal).
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 08:14 pm (UTC)If you were aware of it and knew it would never change and said well fuck em'? Yes, that would be super icky.
I don't think Jack has any real idea of how messed up he acts sometimes or that he is behaving in a way that could be perceieved as dismissive. And unless Jack is forced to he has trouble showing any real emotion to anyone (Other than his serious fear of abandonment. That emotion is coming in loud and clear with Gwen and Owen). Jack is messed up and I think Ianto knows that Jack has a long way to go, but is willing to try and stick it out with him (for now). If the future holds no growth or change and Ianto starts to look miserable, but continues to put up with it, then that becomes unhealthy. I just think with all their baggage (as individuals and together) they are still in the very early stages of this relationship and neither of them have a clear definition of it.
And everything I'm saying here is me trying very hard to not let my little over-zealous fangirl take totally control who wants to just pop out and scream "Jack you Bastard! how can you not love and adore Ianto, and lay at his feet in worship everyday cause he is so pretty and awesome?" (she is very loud and has had faaaar too much sugar) cause I like to believe that the characters have more going on than just what appears at times and that they are capable of growing and changing. Time will tell, and if they turn out to be just flat caricatures, well, I won't be watching for very long.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 08:32 pm (UTC)Jack is smart enough to know how to act in front of people, regardless of baggage.
Like I said, a lot of what I'm feeling is pretty visceral, too, based on what I *want* to happen. But it's stuff like that bit at the end of "Meat" that really, really has me losing like for Jack. I would LOVE to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it's just getting kinda weird.
hehe, I just watched that "Last Supper" scene from "Adam" again, and it just creeps me out/makes me laugh. How weird is that?! Jack, you are sooooooooooooo narcissistic.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 08:47 pm (UTC)I hear you. Some of it has been very annoying. I've been trying to bear in mind that Jack/Gwen was the original intention of the writers and since they've changed that (supposedly) they have to find closure, and that the season isn't over yet. The Owen arc took up a lot of time and then they had to marry Gwen off, but now that it's over we can hopefully move onward. Plus, Ianto seems happy (to me, and I know it's a matter of perspective). If that changes, then I'm letting the little, ranting, hyperactive fangirl loose!
I just watched that "Last Supper" scene from "Adam" again, and it just creeps me out/makes me laugh. How weird is that?! Jack, you are sooooooooooooo narcissistic.
Ha, ha! I don't think it's weird at all. It's a strange little scene.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 07:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 08:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 08:14 pm (UTC)Coat sniffing, obvious smarting in Kiss kiss bb, look in Adam.
I don't get that feeling from Jack with regard to Ianto, with regard to Gwen yes, but Ianto no. It's nothing to do with Jack being flirtatious. He could come across as super serious about Ianto to me and I wouldn't expect him to stop flirting. I'm not that bothered about the flippant and I would be even less so if I felt Jack was underneath it all serious. But I don't.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 08:31 pm (UTC)No, they're not. Sorry if you thought I'd implied that.
I don't get that feeling from Jack with regard to Ianto, with regard to Gwen yes, but Ianto no. It's nothing to do with Jack being flirtatious. He could come across as super serious about Ianto to me and I wouldn't expect him to stop flirting. I'm not that bothered about the flippant and I would be even less so if I felt Jack was underneath it all serious. But I don't.
Here again, it's all personal perspective. I see Jack as having strong feelings for Ianto, but having trouble expressing them or even working out what they all mean. If can't see any feelings then I guess you wouldn't see any hope for the relationship.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-07 08:39 pm (UTC)