I WUV YOU IANTO
Sep. 11th, 2009 09:58 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tencrushA brief post about LOVE, like I promised. Or more specifically, about "I love you" and Children of Earth. I've heard from one of GDL's panels at DragonCon that there was a reciprocal "I love you" in Ianto's death scene in Day Four, but it removed at the request of JB and GDL. You may be surprised to know that I am GODDAMN HAPPY about that. That scene was fucking awful, man. It made me cry, yes, Ianto was soon to be dead, but Christ what a cringeworthy sappy piece of shit scene that was. I was upset at the time that there WASN'T an "I love you" from Jack in that scene, I'll admit, but my actual upset wasn't about those words and that moment, it was about the fact that there wasn't anything even remotely approaching a relationship in which those words could have been spoken up until that scene.
What Children of Earth did, for me, above anything else, was tell me that I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG. Way back when, when I started thinking that Jack/Ianto was a bit squicky, and I talked and I talked and I talked and people talked to me, and everyone started convincing each other that we should be reading between the lines and there was more to their emotional bond than we were being shown, all that stuff was thrown out the window in Days One to Four of Children of Earth. There wasn't. There hadn't been. And so all those thoughts I had back then, that Jack was essentially fucking an employee, not really giving anything back emotionally, despite the fact that that employee, who was younger, less experienced, emotionally broken and vulnerable, was very obviously falling in love with him, all that stuff was true. My inklings and instincts that Jack was being a user and was, in fact, a bit of a dick, that really was the case. Not only was there nothing going on, emotionally, in Series One or Two, but when that subject did start coming up in CoE, it was shot down, their interactions became hugely uncomfortable to watch, and a sudden redemption on that front on Ianto's deathbed did absolutely nothing to change that. Too little, too late. It made me hate Jack, far more than I'm sure it was meant to, but it did. I'm glad Jack didn't say "I love you", it would probably have made me hate him even more.
The reason all this stuff still bothers me is pretty simple. I had these bad feelings about Jack during S2 of Torchwood, this inkling that he used people and acted like an arsehole, and used his immortality as an excuse, in his own head, anyway, for how he treated mere mortals emotionally. For me, those feelings were confirmed in CoE when the big, climactic, dramatic drama happened. And the thing is, I have these same feelings about the Doctor. Well, no, not the Doctor, Ten, specifically. This niggling feeling that he's been acting like a dick, and that he uses his emo as an excuse to treat people like shit. In fact with the Doctor it's far less niggling, and far more blatant. I don't want to feel this way about the Doctor, and I'm very, very afraid that, as with Jack, these things will come into play in the final furlong. I DO NOT WANT.
I never really cared about the fact that I disliked Jack, Jack's not a big deal, but the Doctor? I watch this shit with my kid, man, I don't want to have him squeeing over monsters and sonic screwdrivers and TARDISes while I sit by on the sofa and fume and cringe and hate Ten. I don't want all this serious manpain in Who, and I certainly don't want these HINTS of serious manpain and emotional retardation to become CANON. I don't mind hints, I don't mind it when I can read things into this kiddie show, I like being given ambiguity and subtext, things to enjoy on another level while my child hides behind the sofa, that's all great, it's cool. Actual canonical emo and manpain and emotional manipulation? Not so much.
I hear a lot of people saying that it sounds like Moffat's tenure might be a bit much in the way of jelly babies and crappy monsters and silliness. GOOD. I, for one, cannot wait for this development. Bring it on. And Russell? Go make SRSDRAMA somewhere else. I won't be watching.
ETA: LOL, though. I've been criticising Russell T Davies for like two years now, and what was my major complaint about Jack/Ianto? It was Russell, you're not doing a very good job of showing us a relationship between two equals that isn't mildly emotionally abusive and isn't primarily about sex. I was totally wrong. He did a great job of showing us a relationship that wasn't between two equals, was mildly emotionally abusive and was primarily about sex. Russell is, in fact, very good at his job. Who would have thought?
What Children of Earth did, for me, above anything else, was tell me that I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG. Way back when, when I started thinking that Jack/Ianto was a bit squicky, and I talked and I talked and I talked and people talked to me, and everyone started convincing each other that we should be reading between the lines and there was more to their emotional bond than we were being shown, all that stuff was thrown out the window in Days One to Four of Children of Earth. There wasn't. There hadn't been. And so all those thoughts I had back then, that Jack was essentially fucking an employee, not really giving anything back emotionally, despite the fact that that employee, who was younger, less experienced, emotionally broken and vulnerable, was very obviously falling in love with him, all that stuff was true. My inklings and instincts that Jack was being a user and was, in fact, a bit of a dick, that really was the case. Not only was there nothing going on, emotionally, in Series One or Two, but when that subject did start coming up in CoE, it was shot down, their interactions became hugely uncomfortable to watch, and a sudden redemption on that front on Ianto's deathbed did absolutely nothing to change that. Too little, too late. It made me hate Jack, far more than I'm sure it was meant to, but it did. I'm glad Jack didn't say "I love you", it would probably have made me hate him even more.
The reason all this stuff still bothers me is pretty simple. I had these bad feelings about Jack during S2 of Torchwood, this inkling that he used people and acted like an arsehole, and used his immortality as an excuse, in his own head, anyway, for how he treated mere mortals emotionally. For me, those feelings were confirmed in CoE when the big, climactic, dramatic drama happened. And the thing is, I have these same feelings about the Doctor. Well, no, not the Doctor, Ten, specifically. This niggling feeling that he's been acting like a dick, and that he uses his emo as an excuse to treat people like shit. In fact with the Doctor it's far less niggling, and far more blatant. I don't want to feel this way about the Doctor, and I'm very, very afraid that, as with Jack, these things will come into play in the final furlong. I DO NOT WANT.
I never really cared about the fact that I disliked Jack, Jack's not a big deal, but the Doctor? I watch this shit with my kid, man, I don't want to have him squeeing over monsters and sonic screwdrivers and TARDISes while I sit by on the sofa and fume and cringe and hate Ten. I don't want all this serious manpain in Who, and I certainly don't want these HINTS of serious manpain and emotional retardation to become CANON. I don't mind hints, I don't mind it when I can read things into this kiddie show, I like being given ambiguity and subtext, things to enjoy on another level while my child hides behind the sofa, that's all great, it's cool. Actual canonical emo and manpain and emotional manipulation? Not so much.
I hear a lot of people saying that it sounds like Moffat's tenure might be a bit much in the way of jelly babies and crappy monsters and silliness. GOOD. I, for one, cannot wait for this development. Bring it on. And Russell? Go make SRSDRAMA somewhere else. I won't be watching.
ETA: LOL, though. I've been criticising Russell T Davies for like two years now, and what was my major complaint about Jack/Ianto? It was Russell, you're not doing a very good job of showing us a relationship between two equals that isn't mildly emotionally abusive and isn't primarily about sex. I was totally wrong. He did a great job of showing us a relationship that wasn't between two equals, was mildly emotionally abusive and was primarily about sex. Russell is, in fact, very good at his job. Who would have thought?
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On people dying young in Torchwood
Date: 2009-09-12 03:52 am (UTC)If it's SO dangerous, and the employees unable to meet the dangers they were hired for, and a person die EVERY OTHER YEAR, as it has on average happened since Gwen Cooper showed up...than the drawers would be full, since Torchwood has been around for centuries...
Like, WWII was dangerous business, and tons of people died...but tons of people came back as well.
Re: On people dying young in Torchwood
Date: 2009-09-12 06:27 am (UTC)Oh hell yes on this. Then add it to Jack's strange hiring policy and it's just stupidly bad. I really hate that's what they're telling people in interviews then tried to tell us TW is suppose to be realistic.
I think someone died every year? Suzie, Owen, Tosh, zombie!Owen, and Ianto. It went from dangerous to ridiculously dangerous, and it feels a bit like officers getting promoted out in the field because their superior just got blown up.
Re: On people dying young in Torchwood
Date: 2009-09-12 03:03 pm (UTC)And then there is of course Gwen for whom the 'dying' rule just doesn't apply.
Re Jack's - or the Doctor's - immortality as an excuse for his cold bastard attitude, that's just another example of poor characterisation for the sake of cheap melodrama.
Am I supposed to feel sympathy for poor Jack who treats lovers like shit because he can't stand to lose them? As if Jack is the only living being in the entire universe who loses loved ones! Because of course it only happens to poor immortals to outlive the people they love *rolls eyes*
You'd think that after 150 Jack would have learned his lesson and changed approach to the problem by trying to treasure those around him for as long as he can keep them or even, I don't know, by doing something like actually trying his best to protect them and see if he can manage to make one of his lovers reach at least 50?
The decent thing to do in CoE was to have Jack going to face the alien threat ALONE and making so pretty clear to the audience, old and new, that Jack would have never allowed Ianto to go with him because it was dangerous. That would have been IC and realistic and would have shown that Jack really cared about his young and vulnerable lover.
When, only after provoking the aliens, he went with the line 'Ianto you have to get out of here, I cannot die but you can' that was totally for the new viewers' exclusive benefit while it caused me the DUH! moment and the final realisation that Jack is the greatest retard ever.
Re: On people dying young in Torchwood
Date: 2009-09-12 04:21 pm (UTC)Yes to everything about Jack and one of the biggest reason why I'm never going to think of CoE as canon, there's so much fail in it I just can't take it as the seriously serious drama as RTD claimed it's suppose to be.
Re: On people dying young in Torchwood
Date: 2009-09-12 02:56 pm (UTC)So true. I think RTD just got kill happy (he seems to think that character death is the height of drama, not to mention he said in an interview that he enjoys killing characters). I guess if Torchwood comes back it's going to be Gwen and a bunch of red shirts; Julie Gardner has said that Gwen will never be killed off because she's the POV character.
Why does the POV character have immunity anyways?
Date: 2009-09-12 04:55 pm (UTC)Killing off the POV character? Now that's dramatic! It'll let you switch POV for good, but in a good assembly show, you can do that without killing off the original POV anyways.
Re: Why does the POV character have immunity anyways?
Date: 2009-09-12 06:03 pm (UTC)'Killing off the POV character? Now that's dramatic! It'll let you switch POV for good, but in a good assembly show, you can do that without killing off the original POV anyways.'
That is dramatic! I always thought that they could have given each of the five main characters two POV episodes with one being misc.
Re: Why does the POV character have immunity anyways?
Date: 2009-09-12 06:12 pm (UTC)I think Trinity would have been great, if they have edited it down...at one point there was three pages of this minor character talking about the train that is the business of this girl the heroine was seeing now and then. It just became a huge mess, but I like the narrative switch.
Re: Why does the POV character have immunity anyways?
Date: 2009-09-13 02:34 pm (UTC)Re: Why does the POV character have immunity anyways?
Date: 2009-09-12 06:51 pm (UTC)I don't have an issue with John Barrowman/Eve Myles being the main lead in the show, but FFS I question the idea that anyone else is disposable and must therefore be exterminated.
Why should I bother if I already know that the main characters are so safe that the actors playing them are booked till they are 94 (to quote Eve Myles)??? Why should I be thrilled by TW knowing that:
1) Gwen will never have anything even remotely upsetting going to happen to her
2) Jack will suffer tragedy after tragedy but won't be affected by them in any way
Oh joy! Here we've got two extremely boring, dull, cardboard, 2D characters: super Gwen having everything going her way no matter what happens because "you cannot 'rape' Snow White" and immortal shallow Jack jumping from tragedy to 'let me entertain you' with my irresistible charm as I molest the next boy toy (while I really ache for the true love that is Gwen).
Are they going to have a bunch of lame red shirts to support them, lame being the key word so that we don't fall in love with them like we did with Ianto?
Re: Why does the POV character have immunity anyways?
Date: 2009-09-13 03:49 pm (UTC)I hate to pose such a newbie question, but what was FFS mean? I think it's not a good idea. If characters become nothing but cannon fodder (except for the untouchable leads) than no one is going to care when they get killed. I know I don't care anymore.
'Oh joy! Here we've got two extremely boring, dull, cardboard, 2D characters: super Gwen having everything going her way no matter what happens because "you cannot 'rape' Snow White" and immortal shallow Jack jumping from tragedy to 'let me entertain you' with my irresistible charm as I molest the next boy toy (while I really ache for the true love that is Gwen).'
Boring sounds about right. When I heard about RTD's Snow White comment and I thought 'so for everyone else Torchwood is a Greek tragedy, but for Gwen it's a fairy tale?'
'
Are they going to have a bunch of lame red shirts to support them, lame being the key word so that we don't fall in love with them like we did with Ianto?'
I know I won't be getting attached to any new Torchwood characters.
Re: Why does the POV character have immunity anyways?
Date: 2009-09-13 04:16 pm (UTC)Re: Why does the POV character have immunity anyways?
Date: 2009-09-13 04:23 pm (UTC)