Asylum thoughts, actual serious ones.

[tencrush]

I've heard a lot of complaints around about Jack's characterisation in Asylum. I'm intrigued as to why people think he was so enormously OOC.

First off, I'll explain one of the major problems I have with RTD's writing, and specifically his characterisation. The problem I see onscreen again and again is the major discrepancy between what we ARE TOLD about characters, either by the characters themselves or through the eyes of other characters, and how those characters ACTUALLY BEHAVE. Gwen is a prime example of this, and as it's one of themost obvious ones, it's one that grates on a lot of people, this discrepancy between Jack's SUPER COMPASSIONATE WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING opinion of Gwen, and Gwen's actual onscreen rather pushy, ditzy, sometimes downright stupid, cheating-on-her-boyfriend etc etc behaviour. RTD often seems to have trouble actually MAKING his characters wonderful, awesome, compassionate and so forth and resorts instead to the rather lazy tool of TELLING US that they are these things.

Torchwood itself, and Jack as head of Torchwood, is another example. We've been told that Jack has reshaped Torchwood, as a hommage to the Doctor, and has altered the focus of the organisation. But what actually has he done? Onscreen the one major difference between Jack's Torchwood and the Hartman Torchwood at Canary Wharf would appear to be a lack of organisation and professionalism, but that, really, is about it. You would think that this "reshaping" of the organisation would have, at the very least, involved a realisation on Jack's part that perhaps not everything that comes through the Rift is a threat, and that providing asylum (as they do for humans at Flat Holm and as they do for humans who are temporally displaced) for those beings that are trapped on Earth against their will should form a major part of their focus. A Weevil island sanctuary, perhaps? As opposed to indefinite incarceration of these alien beings who seemingly are just trying to survive. You'd think Jack would be on this somehow, but Asylum tells us that he isn't. And really, is that so out-of-character for the Jack that we've seen thus far? Look at the way he treats Beth in Sleeper, how he uses a Weevil to threaten people in whatever episode that was, how he erases Adam out of existence without really so much as a thought for the fact that this is just what this creature needs to do to live and, you know, maybe we could come up with a solution somehow. Even Lisa, really. This isn't exactly a guy who's open to the idea that perhaps a middle ground can be reached somehow. This is a guy who transports aliens into the heart of the sun without really blinking. In fact, the most compassion Jack's ever shown for any alien being is the space whale, let's face it. Maybe that's because it was a big fish?

I don't really know what I'm trying to say, but there's this fannish in-joke about Torchwood and Jack shooting aliens inna face, you know? In all seriousness, though, that joke didn't just fall out of the sky like a giant space whale.

Comments

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

I can't say anything about Asylum since I haven't listened to it yet, but you'll probably already know that I agree with everything you said about Jack: I may try to rationalise or explain his behaviour in all kinds of ways on a meta level, but as far as show canon itself is concerned, there's definitely a discrepancy, and the question of Jack's psychological make-up, e.g., what working for TW for a century did to him, has never been explicitly - or even semi-explicitly - addressed, unlike his death wish in S1. I do believe we were supposed to notice in S2 (more so than in S1) that Jack is a very complex and contradictory character, but it was all very vague, and after the brief exchange I had with James Moran over Sleeper I'm not entirely convinced they're always fully aware of what messages they do or don't send out...

[tencrush]

I'm not entirely convinced they're always fully aware of what messages they do or don't send out...
No, that's been my point from the very beginning. It seems sometimes that they get so caught up in their own big ideas for the show that they never really take the time to sit down and make sure those ideas are actually coming across on screen.

[bandgeek01.livejournal.com]

You know I didn't think Jack was totally OOC in Asylum. As you pointed out with Sleeper, and other episodes.

Also how long is supposed to have passed between the end of S2 and these radio plays and S3? I would think that Jack maybe put up these walls because he doesn't want to lose anyone again. So he's made himself cold to other people besides Ianto and Gwen.


Nicole

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Jack's SUPER COMPASSIONATE WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING opinion of Gwen

Y'know, I'm not sure we really get that on screen. I think it actually comes from promotional soundbites.

[tencrush]

I'm pretty sure we do. Series one is all about how wonderfully human and fabulous Jack thinks Gwen is and how much he needs her to be human and compassionate because the rest of his team, including himself, are all jaded and bitter and angsty. Or something like that.

And even if it is coming from promotional soundbites, it's still hugely bizarre that the PR doesn't match the canon IN ANY WAY, which just brings up loads of questions as to what TPTB think they're showing us on screen, and what they actually are showing us.

And whichever is the case, my main point about Jack and Torchwood still stands. :p

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Yeah it comes across somehow even if no one says it in as many words. Like when she is all "someone is dead and you are EATING FOOD"

[tencrush]

"HOW DARE YOU EAT FOOD! Don't you CARE??" Yeah. Even that just seems like pasteded on gwen-telling-us-how-compassionate-gwen-is, really.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Even as someone who likes Gwen I don't think she's really any more compassionate than the others. Less jaded maybe, and less cynical, but give her time and she'll be shooting people inna face for looking at her funny. She is not a beautiful delicate nurturing soul, she's just slightly more in tune with the morality that Torchwood have had to abandon or alter.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

That scene is verily like unto a cheesegrater on the nipples. Thankfully, IIRC, it's not repeated. Plus it's in the middle of a story in which Jack makes Gwen offer to die in order to fix the schoolgirl screwup with which she started the whole fatal mess. And at the start of a season in which goody two shoes Gwen becomes more and more corrupted, 'cos it ain't easy to stay human in the face of all this shit.

What we really need, though, is some Jackly dialogue about Gwen. My stummick hurts, so I might hit the sofa later and rummage through the season looking for Evidence.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

OK, as threatened promised: a rundown S1 dialogue regarding Jack's opinion of Gwen and her Compassion. (Thank gods for tw_transcripts)


EVERYTHING CHANGES (script: RTD)

GWEN: I could be like your liaison with the police.
JACK: Right, I can see the mistake. You think because we showed up at the
scene of crime, we're out to catch the killer. [...]
GWEN: Then what were you doing there?
JACK: Testing the glove. We need murder victims, simple as that. [...]
GWEN: No, you were asking that man [...] about his killer.
JACK: He'd just been murdered, what else are you gonna ask?
GWEN: You could get an ID. You could help.

JACK: Torchwood's got a vacancy. Job going spare. Do you want it?
GWEN: But ... what do you need me for?
JACK: Cos maybe you were right. We could do more to help.

___

DAY ONE (script: Chibnall)

GWEN: That girl's body is being overrun by I don't know what. And you think it's a
joke?... We should be helping her. She's not some lab rat.

GWEN: What are we doing having Chinese while a girl fights for her life?... You've been hidden down here too long. Spending so much time with the alien stuff, you've lost what it means to be human.
JACK: So remind us. Tell me what it means to be human in the 21st century.
GWEN: All right.

[and she does]

JACK: Why have you done this? [Uh... you just asked her to?]
GWEN: This isn't about meteorites or gases. We have a trapped girl and we have to
save her. When I was with her in the cell, Carys told me she was losing. We have to find a
way to keep her fighting, remind her to hold on to who she is. (Jack stares) Have I got something on my face?
JACK: No. Uh ... Just, it's ... brilliant. You are brilliant.

[and yet!] GWEN: After all I said, a severed hand is more important to you than Carys' life.

JACK: Do one thing for me. Don't let the job consume you. You have a life.
Perspective. We need that... Go home, Gwen Cooper. Eat lasagne. Kiss your boyfriend. Be normal. For me.

Hmm. As barfy as Gwen's Powerpoint presentation is, it's not exclusively about sharing and caring - it's also a profile, as Tosh explicitly remarks later, which assists them in finding Carys; and a search for a way to help Carys resist (although this is quickly forgotten as she escapes, leaving us staring at Owen's nipples).

(More in a bit.)

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Couldn't spot anything relevant in Ghost Machine, Cyberwoman, Small Worlds, Countrycide, Greeks Bearing Gifts, Random Shoes, Out of Time, or Captain Jack Harkness.


THEY KEEP KILLING SUZIE

JACK: The glove relies on some sort of empathy. Maybe compassion and... just be yourself.

GWEN: Suzie had the glove. You put her in charge of it. But tell me, Jack, did you
ever ask about her father?
JACK: How do you mean?
GWEN: He's got cancer. He's been dying slowly now for years. And what do you do?
You give his daughter the one device that brings people back to life! Is it any wonder she
got obsessed?
JACK: Oh, so this is all my fault?!
GWEN: Well, isn't it? Did you ever stop and think? Did you ... Did you ever look at Suzie? Did you ever think what that glove would do to her, did you?
JACK: Right from the start, you thought that Suzie's death was because of you, cos it happened when you arrived. Then you brought her back to life, all the way, because you wanted it so much. Okay! We're both responsible!


Nothing in Random Shoes, Out of Time, or Captain Jack Harkness

COMBAT

JACK: Sorry for cutting in, but I've been having a little trouble with this one.
GWEN: Rhys will get over it. He always does.
JACK: You promised you'd keep hold of your life. Don't let it drift.


END OF DAYS

GWEN: Did you have to pick on him in public like that?
JACK: All our actions have consequences.
GWEN: And all your staff have feelings, Jack, even Owen.
JACK: Well, you would know. [meow!]
___

To sum up: there are two lines in S1, neither of them in RTD scripts, in which Jack praises Gwen's empathy. Between the barfy scene in Day One and that clumsy little reminder in They Keep Killing Suzie, I can see how you and others got the impression that Jack was constantly telling us about Gwen's fabulous compassion, but I think what was actually broadcast is rather less icky. And thank heavens for that!

[tencrush]

Much like Rose, I think Gwen actually suffers a lot from what you said earlier, which is the over-the-top PR about how great she is. Gwen was very much the focus of the S1 promotional machine and she didn't really live up to the hype surrounding her character. She is in that respect not the most helpful example of what I mean about RTD's telling-not-showing tendencies, though, as I've said, my point about Jack still stands and my point about RTD's writing is still one I adhere to. I might write something about it laters, because RTD's dependence on the other-characters-who-idolise-the-main-character-and-tell-us-how-great-they-are-method is one of the prime reasons I think Ianto's going to cop it.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

STOP BEING REASONABLE THIS IS THE INTERNETS

*ahem*

[tencrush]

AAAAGH!!

That's probably the cutest thing I've ever seen. WHOMADEITANDCANISTEALIT??

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Me, just now; and absolutely. :D

[robling-t.livejournal.com]

That... totally needs to be mashed-up with the one I saw where somebody 'shopped in a gigantic vibrator... o.0

[tencrush]

That was me, right here.

[robling-t.livejournal.com]

...So, what are you waiting for...? ;)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Yah Rusty is kind of shit at actually showing that characters are great and awesome and worthy of all the attention they get. Sometimes so shit that he makes really ugly personalities that the other characters all adore. It is an odd weakness when he is supposed to be good with Characters And Stuff.

Jack is a bit of a bastard who doesn't care about aliens unless they are sexy whales. He certainly doesn't have much time for things like redemption and forgiveness and shit. Maybe professionalism is evil and that is why Torchwood Cardiff ase useless fuckwits. I don't hate the Jack, but I am not sure how his Torchwood is any different from Yvonne Hartman's apart from obvs BEING USELESS FUCKWITS. Ahem. Also he is creepy in terms of sexual harrassment.

[tencrush]

All of that, yes. I think it's why people accuse Rusty of writing Mary Sues, I don't think he necessarily does, but that style of telling-us-how-fab-characters-are brings those connotations to mind.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

He seems to get very fond of certain characters and make other characters suffer in some weird belief it will make his pet look good rather than like a twat.

[(Anonymous)]

To be fair RTD hasn't actually written that much Torchwood.

[tencrush]

Overall, he's in charge. End of.

[(Anonymous)]

"Overall, he's in charge. End of."

In charge enough to be a hindrance but not enough to be a help. My theory is that Torchwood and the characterisations would be better (though still overegging of the fabulousness of his characters) if he could dedicate more time to it like with Doctor Who. Or conversely if he wasn't involved at all because then someone else might be able to take responsibility for reining in its excesses. While he's officially in charge even if not involved in the detail I don't think that happens which is partly the problem.

[qthewetsprocket.livejournal.com]

RTD often seems to have trouble actually MAKING his characters wonderful, awesome, compassionate and so forth and resorts instead to the rather lazy tool of TELLING US that they are these things.

THIS. i have been saying this ever since rose tyler s2 and gwen cooper s1, and i am gratified beyond words that SOMEONE ELSE FINALLY SEES IT TOO.

*glomps you*

Gwen's actual onscreen rather pushy, ditzy, sometimes downright stupid, cheating-on-her-boyfriend etc etc behaviour

more than all that, it's her selfishness that i think really makes jack's opinion of her as 'the compassionate one' hard to understand...especially when she repeatedly puts the whole team in danger by refusing to follow jack's direct orders, throws tantrums to get her own way, and endangers her fiance's life by giving him what she damn well knows is a dangerous drug instead of confessing her infidelity and facing the consequences. and beyond just being lazy writing, it makes jack really look bad as a leader: he repeatedly allows his special pet employee (that he might or might not want to shag) to endanger the other team members and gives her preferential treatment.

anyway, rtd seems to admire selfishness in his female characters (insert any of the quotes he's made about rose tyler's selfishness making her a survivor, etc), and, just, wtf? selfish =/= compassionate.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

but there's this fannish in-joke about Torchwood and Jack shooting aliens inna face, you know? In all seriousness, though, that joke didn't just fall out of the sky like a giant space whale

this
i think... well i don't know, i'm going to say, wrong or not, that a lot of ppl feel it was OOC b/c that's not how they want to see jack, not so much to do with how he actually comes across in canon

and that whole aspect of jack's character is one of the biggest things i've disliked about him in torchwood - he should have thought about this and he, of all of them, should have been more sympathetic to the aliens that just happen to find themselves stranded on a strange planet with no way to get back home... i'm just saying

[satanassa.livejournal.com]

I must say Jack is completely useless as a leader! From S1 and S2, we see that he has no idea what his team members are up to behind his back, allows them to bully each other, has no clue if they have psychological problems, is willing to bend all rules for his pet employee, can't get his team to obey orders, etc etc. The pain it must cause Ianto to be involved with such an incompetent doofus!

Also this point about Gwen being the 'compassionate' one -- have you noticed that in the episode 'Greeks Bearing Gifts' it was actually Tosh who was the kind-hearted one, very much affected by the letters and things that come through the Rift?

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

While Gwen was having nasty thoughts about Tosh's boots. XD

[satanassa.livejournal.com]

Both Gwen and Owen were really nasty to Tosh in that episode!

[saharafic.livejournal.com]

This. This is exactly how I felt. I didn't realize people thought it was OOC. In fact, I felt like it was so totally in character that we got more about him than we have in a while.

Thought: he shows compassion for the emo space whale, and in his flashback, he shows some modicum of concern for the blowfish - but Mary, Adam, Beth...nada. And I feel like Weevils are pets for him - dumb animals that he can keep in a kennel. He seems to show the most contempt and animosity towards aliens that seem on the surface to be human. Could that have something to do with his love/hate thing with The Doctor?

Dunno, rambling