Episode thinkies: Adam, aka Ianto was grown in a vat

[tencrush]

Anyone up for an episode discussion? I shall keep this fandom debating if it kills me, you see, and I'm directing my attention to individual episodes in extremely random order. I chose Adam to rewatch, twice, because A)I didn't like it much originally (I still, unfortunately, don't.) and B)I thought it would be nice to approach this episode as a character study, which is essentially, what it is. And there's a C) as well, which is that I've seen a few people mention this episode recently, trying to work out exactly what it was that Adam did to the individual team members, and I thought it would be nice to see if we could work it out amongst us. I won't be discussing the plot, I think we're well aware of what happened, I'm just interested in the characters and what happens to them when Adam feeds his memories in, what it is he replaces, and how this affects the personalities of those involved.

I'll start with the easy ones:


TOSH AND OWEN
Funny, I never noticed the first time around that we see Adam feeding in the memories of his relationship with Tosh. I always kind of assumed that her relationship with Adam was part of what was making her the more confident, sexy Tosh we saw, but actually she's already like that, even before he puts this relationship into her head. I never quite realised that. I also never really quite understood what the relevance was to the round-the-table Jesus scene, but I'm taking it's relevance lies in the fact that the memories they dredge up are the ones that they've lost because of Adam's manipulations. And, as Gwen says when she talks about Rhys's video, it's not so much that these defining memories are GONE, it's that they've become disembodied, detached from the emotions accompanying them. What's happened to Tosh is that she's lost the feelings associated with the memories that define her as being the insecure geek we know her as. That's what Adam has pushed out. Owen is exactly the same, he's lost those feelings that make him the bitter and cynical guy he is. And it's interesting to see how much those insecurities and that cynicism DEFINE Tosh and Owen as people, far more so than any of the others. Tosh and Owen are the ones most affected by Adam's manipulation in terms of their personality. The impression is very much that of all of the team, it is, in fact, Tosh and Owen who are the most broken, emotionally, as people, and the ones who are most easily manipulated, the ones with the weakest personalities. That's not quite what you'd expect, especially not from Owen, but, again, I think a lot of people have a decidedly bizarre view of Owen as some sort of strong alpha type male, when it's things like this (and, again, I'll repeat my point, his blatant insecurities about the teaboy) that show us how weak Owen really is and how much of his personality is a very easily broken down protective front. And, aww, how shippy is this episode, really, when it comes to Tosh and Owen? Owen, hiding behind his cynicism, Tosh, hiding behind her intellect, how good would these two be for each other? Shame they died, eh? Anyway, moving on...

GWEN
I get it now. Well, in a way, I get it. Like I just said, I never quite understood the relevance of the round table, but the round table scene was about them reconnecting with the memories that define them before they forgot what happened. They needed to make those connections in their brains before taking the retcon, because once they've forgotten what's happened they'll have forgotten what it is they've forgotten. It's pretty obvious what Gwen's forgotten, she's forgotten her connection to Rhys. I'm choosing to see the table scene, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, as a brief look at the team's personalities in limbo, caught halfway between the people they are and the people Adam turned them into, as they try to integrate the memories they've lost. Which is where I think Gwen's "not like I love you" towards Jack comes from. I'm choosing to see that as something the Rhysless Gwen feels, simply because I don't quite believe that they'd want to paint such a nasty portrait of Gwen as a two-timing bitch. I can live with that explanation. Only just.

JACK AND IANTO
Like Tosh and Owen, I can't really separate the stories of these two, because I think they're connected. In the same way that Tosh and Owen are HUGELY changed by the loss of their defining memories, Jack and Ianto, oddly, are not. They take Adam's presence as read, and they've lost a connection to each other, but this doesn't seem to affect their personalities to any great extent. Jack seems slightly harder, note his treatment of the Weevil, and Ianto seems slightly more lost at times. But neither of those things make them act drastically differently. Ianto especially seems to be pretty much the same guy. Why are they unaffected? For Jack, I think it's quite simple. He's lost his connection with Ianto, as noted most blatantly the fact that he doesn't want to go weevil hunting with him. I think crucially, though, Adam's done a very clever thing with Jack (probably not by design but completely by accident), in that he's not just inserted himself into Jack's memories, but he's inserted himself AS JACK'S CONFIDANT, the guy he can trust. And as long as Jack has one of those, Jack seems pretty much okay. That's not me trying to negate Ianto's importance to Jack, Jack needs a guy he can trust and confide in and he's chosen Ianto to be that guy. But it illustrates very well exactly what Ianto means when he says that Jack needs him, this is what Jack needs him for. Jack needs someone he can go to when he needs to talk, not someone who'll push him like Gwen, but someone who will just let him talk and leave it at that. (Again, I'm reminded of Fragments and Jack's odd blurtings to Ianto about his life, Ianto's that guy, from the very start) The scene where Adam's pushing Jack to open up illustrates it beautifully, because, like Gwen, Adam doesn't quite get how Jack works, and he's therefore not the right person for Jack. Jack doesn't respond well to being pushed, he gets extremely uncomfortable very quickly. Other than the confidant thing, it's pretty much implied that Jack, what with his huge history, obviously has some sort of anomalous memory anyway, the messing with his head doesn't seem to make him lose any really defining memories, but instead dredge up those of Gray. The interesting thing about the Gray story (which I find hugely tedious) is how much it tells us that Jack's the kind of guy who closes off chapters in his head, who buries things and locks them away in order to function, and I think this is part of the reason Jack's pretty much the same guy. Shippily enough, Ianto seems to function in pretty much the same way. And I think it's why Ianto is also not hugely affected by the changes Adam brings about. In fact, Ianto doesn't seem affected at all in terms of personality. It's revealed in the table scene exactly what Ianto's lost (and yes, Ianto has no life before Torchwood, dudes, he was grown in a vat), and it's a bit of a disturbing picture. He's lost his emotions connected to his memories of Lisa, but also those connected to Jack. I say disturbing, because watching the scene again, it struck me how intertwined these two things really are in Ianto's mind. Take away his feelings for Lisa, and Ianto's need for Jack diminishes, reconnect with Lisa and his feelings for Jack slot back into place as well. How fucked up is this boy in the head? And again, I think at the table we're seeing Ianto in limbo as he reconnects with those feelings that define him, possibly making him a bit more emotional and needy than he would ordinarily be. On the relationship front, I think this episode's a bit of a weird one, because it shows us how much these two trust and believe in each other, but at the same time, in the way they're unaffected by the loss of each other's influence, it shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being. It's the reason I don't believe these two are each other's one true love, circumstances have created a need that each of them is fulfilling for the other, but I don't think it's forever. Oh, and another little character note about Ianto, though, the later murders I think tell us a lot about him as well. He's quite fucked up about the whole thing, but I do think there's an undercurrent in the lie detector scene that tells us Ianto has within him the capacity to do evil. The boy's got quite a dark side.

That's my thinkies on the character aspects of this episode, I'm still not sold on the episode's wonderfulness, I must admit, and I'd like to know what other people think happened, exactly, to the team and their memories.


I can never quite post about Torchwood without fawning a bit over Gareth, so I'll do just that. My favourite scene in this one has to be the one in the car, where Jack turns down Ianto's offer to go Weevil hunting. The turn down seems to slightly confuse Ianto, but not affect him to any great extent. There's another hint here of Ianto's amazing memory, because he quite obviously recalls going weevil hunting with Jack and seems to attach some sort of significance to this, and then, when Jack brushes him off, he shrugs it off, whilst at the same time we see so much going on beneath the surface, like he's trying to put two and two together in his brain about Jack and weevil hunting and something, but he can't quite remember what the something is and then the whole thought process kind of just stops. I love Gareth's face, doing all that without actually saying anything. It's brilliant.

Comments

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Dudette, Gareth as Macbeth. I may never stop going awwwww bless.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

But it illustrates very well exactly what Ianto means when he says that Jack needs him, this is what Jack needs him for.

That line makes more sense now. Especially as something said to Owen, who's like Jack's messed up kid brother - a relationship signalled by Jack pushing his head away in Dead Man Walking when they're stuck in the police cell together.

[aliano.livejournal.com]

See, all that makes sense, and I agree with you, but only to a certain extent. What about the whole bit where Ianto calls himself a monster and Jack hugs him? Jack believes in him and is not willing to admit that Ianto could be a murderer. By your argument, showing this caring side would suggest that it's feelings they no longer remember coming through. But to me that means that surely they do have feelings for each other, in a more loving sense.

Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it, only seeing what I want to see...

Oh and the whole grown in a vat theory? For one, I can imagine there's a fanfiction out there claiming just that, but to me I think the writers are trying to show how Torchwood defines Ianto and who he is. I'm not saying that I agree with it, but I think that's what they were getting at.

[tencrush]

Oh, I definitely think there's loving feelings there, and I think that's what we're seeing in Jack's refusal to accept Ianto as a murderer. I think more than anything, the changes, and lack of changes in Jack and Ianto show up what strong personalities both of them have, and how strongly they feel, just in general. We know of Ianto's capacity for love, but that scene is showing us that Jack's is equally strong, even when you fuck with his head and take the relationship away (and we know from the weevil hunting line that there's no relationship in Jack's head), the feelings are still there. But I do think there's very a much a vibe in this episode that circumstances have thrown them together, and that they need each other at this moment in time, and sure, maybe it's love, but it doesn't come across as hugely permanent. Ianto's need for Jack seems to be intertwined with what happened with Lisa, and Jack's need for Ianto just seems to be a more general need that Jack has to find someone he trusts to latch onto. Like I say, I'm not negating that need from either side, I don't think it means that they could have just latched onto any old person, the fact is that they latched onto each other, and that's a perfectly romantic reason to be together. I just don't think it's a for-the-next-50-years kind of together.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Oh and the whole grown in a vat theory? For one, I can imagine there's a fanfiction out there claiming just that,

I'm pretty sure I've read at least one fanfic with exactly that premise, though I can't remember much details. But I'm fairly certain I didn't imagine it! *g*

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

It's revealed in the table scene exactly what Ianto's lost (and yes, Ianto has no life before Torchwood, dudes, he was grown in a vat), and it's a bit of a disturbing picture.

As Fragments showed us later this is very true. He did have pretty well no life before Torchwood. He's still very young and was only 20 years old when he went to work for Torchwood and was a bit of a drifter before that. We also get the impression that he's an orphan. He mentions his dad in the past tense and never mentions his mum at all.
I think a big part of the reason Adam's intereference didn't affect the Jack/Ianto relationship all that much is that I think he was in part unaware of it and also he didn't need it. For me a good bit of the underlining message of this episode was do not underestimate Ianto Jones. In the end that was precisely Adam's undoing wasn't it? He underestimated both Ianto himself and Jack's feelings for and knowledge of Ianto; which led to his own demise.

I really like your insight into what happened between Owen and Tosh, because I always did find that sort of inexplicable.

[kalliopeia.livejournal.com]

He doesn't just underestimate Ianto in general, and Jack's understanding of him, but Ianto's utter trust in Jack. I'm not sure what Adam expected Ianto to do but I'm pretty sure he didn't expect him to go to Jack and tell him everything and beg Jack to help him stop doing what he believed he'd done.

I kind of think that what Adam did was take Jack and Ianto back to what their relationship was in the first season (as I feel it's grown significantly since then).

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

He's still very young and was only 20 years old when he went to work for Torchwood

Yet both Owen and Tosh's key memories were both from childhood / adolescence. Ianto's first significant memory was Lisa? I have to say I'm with tencrush in wondering if Ianto was grown in a vat! Though now that I think of it, Gwen's key memory is also her relationship with Rhys, so... Two people with key childhood memories, and two people with their first serious relationship as their key memory. hmmmmmm.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

in the way they're unaffected by the loss of each other's influence, it shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being. It's the reason I don't believe these two are each other's one true love, circumstances have created a need that each of them is fulfilling for the other, but I don't think it's forever.

I always love it when I discover the key differences in the way other people think that make us see the same thing and interpret them so differently.

For instance, I've been puzzled for some time by your perception that Jack/Ianto can't last long-term. And you've now told me that you think two people have to *need* each other in order to stay together. And I don't think that at all. I've been with someone for nearly twenty years, and while he makes my life better in many many ways, I've always thought I could survive without him. I wouldn't want to, but I could if I had to. So while I tend to agree with your analysis that Jack and Ianto don't need each other to stay essentially the same people they are, I also tend to think that that would strengthen, rather than weaken, their chances of staying together long-term. Because if you are with someone because of need, well, if your needs ever change for whatever reason, your reason for being with that person is gone. But if you are with someone out of choice, that's something that wouldn't change because of external factors, it's something you consciously control.

I'm not saying this to change anyone's mind, just putting out my viewpoint on this, because I find it fascinating to learn how other people think, and I hope other people might find my pov of interest as well.

[tencrush]

I need my other half like I need a hole in the head, really, and he'd probably say the same about me. So you probably have a point there.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Because if you are with someone because of need, well, if your needs ever change for whatever reason, your reason for being with that person is gone. But if you are with someone out of choice, that's something that wouldn't change because of external factors, it's something you consciously control.'
Excellent point. I suppose their relationship could go either way. I'm horrible at taking sides in a discussion like this; if someone makes a good argument I tend to agree with them.

[halfspokenwords.livejournal.com]

I agree with you.

I too was perplexed by the claim that Adam "shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being." In my mind, that's more or less a credit to their relationship, not something that diminishes it. If it isn't something that is built on neediness and codependency... that seems rather healthy to me.

It's interesting, too, that even without the memories (and we don't know exactly how much they lost, though Ianto's "Love's blind" comment definately leads me to believe that he's forgotten Lisa, and since it's significant that Adam is now Jack's confidant, any Jack/Ianto relationship is probably a lot more casual), they retain their faith in eachother.

To me that suggests that their relationship is, in fact, based in trust and personal connection, rather than in circumstances (which they've forgotten). You could see it as being a subtle parallel of Gwen/Rhys, since Rhys too expresses a concern that without the memories of circumstances, they've got nothing.

I wonder what would have happened to Gwen/Rhys if Rhys had also forgotten.

[tencrush]

And you've now told me that you think two people have to *need* each other in order to stay together.
Actually, that's not quite what I meant to say, what I meant to say was what I said in the comment up there. I phrased what I said in my original post quite badly.

What I said in the comment up there is:
But I do think there's very a much a vibe in this episode that circumstances have thrown them together, and that they need each other at this moment in time, and sure, maybe it's love, but it doesn't come across as hugely permanent. Ianto's need for Jack seems to be intertwined with what happened with Lisa, and Jack's need for Ianto just seems to be a more general need that Jack has to find someone he trusts to latch onto. Like I say, I'm not negating that need from either side, I don't think it means that they could have just latched onto any old person, the fact is that they latched onto each other, and that's a perfectly romantic reason to be together. I just don't think it's a for-the-next-50-years kind of together.

[santousha.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on some points, but always read the car scene as Jack being a bit distraught over the flashes he was receiving from his past. He just wasn't in the mood to go "weevil hunting".
To me there was still a relationship but their relationship was still at the level it was in season 1. Adam was Jack's confidant and Ianto merely his lover. He still cares for him but he goes to Adam with his troubles.

Ianto grown in a vat? Likely :)
Gareth keeps making statements like that. Torchwood is all Ianto has, al he is. I do think out of all of them he is the most devoted to Torchwood. Torchwood is his whole world.
Maybe he has good memories of his childhood, and after he lost his family he drifted to find himself. He found torchwood, a new family in Lisa. He clung to her and then he lost her just like he lost his family. After all this lost he forced himself to cling to a man he knew would never die on him. So could not hurt him that way.
I bet his defining moment is Lisa because she gave him something he had gave up looking for. A sense of belonging, a family and love.
When death came for her it brought back the loss of his family and maybe that's when he decided to cling to Jack to give him all of that.
I know he was always attracted to Jack, but maybe Lisa's death is what pushed him closer to him. He replaced Lisa with Jack in a way.
Does that make sense?

[(Anonymous)]

[Quote]...but always read the car scene as Jack being a bit distraught over the flashes he was receiving from his past. He just wasn't in the mood to go "weevil hunting".[End Quote]

Yep, that's how I interpreted that scene. Additionally, I interpreted Ianto's offer as being made simply because he could see Jack was distraught and distracted by what he believed he saw, and he didn't want Jack hunting alone while in such a state.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

When Adam's feeding "the bad stuff" to Ianto, it's quite harsh, and ends with a flourish of sexual violence in that kiss.

What do you make of that? I've not managed to figure that out yet. Why the physical violence? Why the sexual creepiness? Why was it so painful for Ianto, when with the others it was effortless?

[tencrush]

I just assumed it was painful because it was the sort of stuff your brain didn't want to let in. It was bad stuff. All the other stuff was an invasion, but essentially harmless info or nice memories. The sexual creepiness squicked me a bit, at first I thought that the moral of the story was that Adam hadn't done his research and didn't actually know about Jack and Ianto, but the sexual creepiness, watching it again, kind of tells me that he DID know.

He had a bit of a vibe about him that he kind of enjoyed using what he learned from people's minds against them and he really enjoyed tainting people's memories and fucking with the memory-emotion connection. I guess you could read the weirdy sexual stuff as Adam knowing that Ianto is now, for the first time, with a man, and he kind of wanted to make him associate that being with a man stuff with unpleasantness, kind of in the way he fucked with Jack's memory of Gray at the end. He really seemed to like doing that to people, making them make new unpleasant connections between things in their head. Though why he would want to do that, I don't really know. I don't think he liked Ianto much to begin with.

[flowright.livejournal.com]

Very interesting, even if I agree with your thoughts I don't think I could quite arrive at the same conclusion.

On the topic of Ianto in Adam, did 'Lisa' happen ? Because if we refer to fragment, Ianto is here as the butler in suit only because he needed to seduce Jack in order to have access to Torchwood 3 equipments. So no Lisa means maybe still a slacker!Ianto, no suit, no Torchwood 3 and no Jack.
I don't think Ianto and Jack are together in the Adam's verse, because as you said you can't get the equation right if you get ride of Lisa, and you can't get to Jack without her.

So does they implied that Ianto in suit is now the real Ianto ? That he became the persona he created to seduce Jack ?

I can't really make the link between the Adam who rewrote a good 2/3 years of Ianto's life without affecting his butler persona (In the false memory : Lisa was here and Adam not only stopped Jack from jumping Ianto or Ianto to throw himself at Jack but also helped Ianto to get over the accident ?) and the Adam who doesn't realize that Ianto keeps a diary where he's never mentioned.

We know from the work he did on Toshiko and Owen that he's not that meticulous (and was in hurry since he arrived just before the beginning of the episode).

I agree that Ianto doesn't define Jack but I think it's important that Jack did forgot his connection with Ianto. I think Adam did a butcher job, just got ride of the most important thought Torchwood team had on their mind the moment he touched them to make a comfortable and big room to insert himself. As I saw it, Toshiko probably forgot about pining after Owen, Owen forgot about the girlfriend (and the people) he couldn't save, Gwen forgot about Rhys, and Jack forgot about Ianto... This is where I differ from you.

It's true they aren't the 'forever' type of relationship (and really is there really a 'forever' type of relationship ?) for many reasons including the fact that Ianto doesn't live forever and Jack seems to love things/people he can't have (see romanticism movement and especially the part where your happiness with the love object is an unreachable aim) but they matters to each other and most importantly by being together they became happier not different.
Anyway if Jack was more involved in their relationship than he already is (their giddiness was truly a happy sight in adrift), it would be too sad when Ianto leaves him. Look how after all those years he's still sad about the doctor or Estelle. I don't think he will list Ianto only as a shag.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I don't think he will list Ianto only as a shag.'
Yeah, I don't think Ianto is going to turn into one of Jack's stories.

I've never understood this whole 'Jack/Ianto true love forever' thing, it just can't happen, what with Jack being immortal and Ianto being mortal.

[louiex.livejournal.com]

First, can I get an AMEN to what you said about Gwen? It felt so sledgehammered in there that I remember having to pause the episode to laugh at the face Jack pulls when she says it. Its dismissive while acknowledging that she said it, but similar to the 'Weevil hunting' comment in the car Jack lets it slide off him without much thought on his behalf. Which leads me to my next thought of Jack has a disconnect with the whole team in general.

He has ties to them, certainly, and cares for them as we clearly see but in any other episode would Jack have let Gwen's 'amnesia' go so easily? As much as the persistent Gwack bothers me, Jack is very possessive/protective of Gwen and its interesting that it takes Ianto's breakdown to really make Jack consider SOMETHING IS WRONG. Adam's insertion of himself into the fold as getting to pick Jack's mind -which you justly compared to Gwen's forceful tactic of questioning Jack- in a way alienates the captain from the rest of his team to make Adam his lone ally even to the point of surpassing Gwen's role as the usual tool of exposition. Adam both literally and figuratively gets Jack cornered and alone in order to... well, does he feed on memories? He's obsessed with getting access to Jack and his plethora of knowledge to the point of binding himself with a childhood memory so that he'd always exist, not expecting Jack to be willing to throw that away for the greater good.

With Ianto, I agree that Jack probably has chosen him for the guy to whisper truths to over drinks after the end of a long day. Consider, even as much as it pains me to refer to this grand but cracked episode, how in Out of The Rain that Jack expands quite a lot to Ianto when they're alone as opposed to during the TW movie club. Ianto didn't even have to ask aloud and Jack just let the words fly in a way that made me think of how easily Jack spoke to Gwen of Estelle in Small Worlds (Same tricks of the same writer!). Adam imposes himself upon the memories he forces into Ianto's head as well. Much like how he encourages Jack to remember that Adam is his confidant, Adam shows Ianto that when he needed help disposing of bodies it wasn't anyone else but Adam he turned to. Juxtaposing that next to a kiss makes me wonder if Adam didn't mean to set himself up at the center of a love triangle akin to the Gwen-Jack-Ianto with Tosh-Adam-Ianto.

I really liked Adam :D I did. Mostly because it was fun to see the actors get to chew on different sorts of scenery than the usual (Burn, oh I love thee Burn! And Gareth goes without say :D) But there are a few loose threads that bother me that you've summed up nicely~

[kalliopeia.livejournal.com]

Consider, even as much as it pains me to refer to this grand but cracked episode, how in Out of The Rain that Jack expands quite a lot to Ianto when they're alone as opposed to during the TW movie club. Ianto didn't even have to ask aloud and Jack just let the words fly in a way that made me think of how easily Jack spoke to Gwen of Estelle in Small Worlds (Same tricks of the same writer!).

Oh God that episode bugs me so much because it had such potential. All wasted! But I did like that scene (and most of the Jack/Ianto interactions, as I think it shows the trust and respect they have for one another so well). Especially because of the 'movie club' scene. He banters with Gwen, avoids Tosh, teases Owen, but never really answers any questions or tells them anything about why he's there. Then, he gets alone with Ianto, and just tells him without Ianto ever asking.

I don't even know that I compare it too much with Gwen when he tells her about Estelle in Small Worlds because he didn't really offer the information until Gwen tells him she's figured it out. In fact when I think about it, Jack rarely just confides in Gwen, he might tell her things but it's generally after she's pushed and cajoled it out of him. There was no reason for him to tell Ianto any of that, he just decided to.

I think this is exactly why Jack confides in Ianto. He knows he won't be expected to. Ianto doesn't demand that Jack tell him his secrets, which in turn makes Jack more likely to tell them.

Bringing this all back to Adam before I ramble too much more...Adam puts himself in the role of confidante, basically becoming Ianto without the sex. I think that leaves Ianto as someone that Jack trusts as part of the team (like in the early part of season one), but not in a more personal way as he seems to in season two.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, just also wanted to mention the diary! I think if the relationship wasn't there, Ianto would have been very puzzled by his diary. He was upset, but only because Adam wasn't mentioned. I thought the weevil hunting comment was euphemistic to a point, I remember wondering if "we haven't gone hunting in a while", meant "we haven't had sex in a while" Which makes sense if Adam was trying to insert himself as the main confident for Jack.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh and I also meant to say that I think Adam did sexually assault both Tosh and Ianto. With Ianto it was a violent assault, that "mind rape" thing that they did a whole episode about in Star Trek. Adam got off on what he was doing. With Tosh it was like a drug assissted rape.

Also on the point of the one true love thing, I don't think it matters really, as some have said above, the relationship does seem healthy and relaxed, and for Jack fifty years is the blink of an eye, so no one can really be his one true love. I just think yay for them and I hope it lasts and we don't get angst and love triangles (please no Gwen love triangles!!)

By the way, I think that he loves the Dr like a father, there was never a sexual thing, and I can never understand where that comes from. (OK growing up with Dr Who does make the thought of him and sex just plain ikky, but I'm happy to admit he loves Rose, just really not Jack, or vice versa)

[kaimu.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I think reading this, especially this line

it shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being.

explains why I like the Jack/Ianto relationship, because it's not the defining thing for either of them.

They can exist separately and be completely fine but choose to stay together.

In a show where so many characters have their relationship or lack-there-of as a motivating factor, it's nice to have one that simply exists, both people get something out of it, but they don't have to be in a relationship.

[addyke.livejournal.com]

Another way of looking at Adam is that his original infiltration is that it was at the start, very calculated. Maybe Tosh and Owen's personalities were messed with ON PURPOSE.
He boasted to Jack of how he changed them 'for the better'. By making Tosh confident enough to go for a relationship, Adam is now in a strong alliance with Tosh, the longest-serving member (after Jack of course) - and that nearly worked 'Would You Die For Me' - Tosh very nearly shot Jack for him, and was tempted into not taking the Retcon, as Adam had given her the one thing she wanted - love. By making Owen more introverted and socially awward, Adam is removing Mr Alpha Male from the picture and making himself less open to a challenge. Owen is a young buck, always clashing antlers with the two other males - Adam really didn't need that challenge from Owen if he wanted to keep his cover. By making Jack re-live his childhood memories, he makes the team-leader insecure in himself and it affects his ability to lead - right to the final temptation. Adam just makes sure that he is in the right piece at the right time to assume the role of confidente, as he makes the same assumation that a lot of people make at first glance - Jack and Ianto have a purely sexual liason. Adam has placed himself in two strong alliances with Jack and Tosh, and has neutralised who could be his biggest challenger in Owen. He's cocky, and gets careless.
He then makes two serious mistakes:
No. 1: Gwen - Gwen was on holiday that weekend. Suddenly there's another team member that Adam hasn't accounted for, and he applies a quick fix. The problem is that it is a messy job and he doesn't know that Gwen, unlike the others, actually has a life outside Torchwood, and he doesn't take that in consideration. He's suddenly having to back-peddle when the whole-forgetting-Rhys thing comes to light 'Believe me when I tell you that that is your fiancé.' It's the tiny warning sign that both Jack and Ianto pick up on very quickly as they start to figure out what's happened.
Two: Adam seriously underestimated Ianto. At first impression, Ianto is just the tea-boy, too weak to be a threat or worthy of an alliance - just make him think you've always worked here, job done. As we all know one of the carnal rules of Torchwood is to never assume Ianto is just the tea-boy, and Ianto is the one that is able to figure it out because Adam was too lazy to tie up that loose end - to his cost. Ianto challenges him and proves to be just as deadly a threat as Owen could have been. Adam panics, and is overly brutal and cruel in dealing with him - I would go as far to say sadistic as Adam took great pleasure out of tormenting him, he went too far. And of course, in underestimating Ianto, Adam underestimated his relationship with Jack. I don't think that Adam affected either of them's memories of it that much. He just made Jack preoccupied and Ianto took the sensible action and gave Jack a little space, which Adam takes advantage of. Of course Ianto immediately 'confesses' to Jack and that is where the beauty in this relationship lies (and why Adam is my favourite episode) - the absolute trust and faith they have in each other - Ianto trusts Jack to do the right thing and lock him up, Jack has absolute faith that Ianto is not the monster he thinks he is. Jack and Ianto aren't the touchy-feely couple Gwen and Rhys are but when the storm hits, Jack and Ianto's relationship is strong enough to ride it out.
The memories that define you - Adam messed with the memories that defined Tosh, Owen and Gwen - either delibrately or through carelessness. He didn't mess with the memories that defined Ianto because he didn't think he was important enough to bother with, thus failed to break the strongest alliance in Torchwood (in the Jack/Ianto relationship) and brought about his own downfall as a result.

[santousha.livejournal.com]

wow great comment. I have to agree with you on this.
The only thing in this episode that did not make sense to me is the change in Ianto's character. I think Adam did more to him than just make Ianto believe he worked there all along. The changes in Ianto's character did not seem as severe as Owen's but he also looked like a different person in this episode.
He seemed happier, more laid back and really like he felt he was part of torchwood.
Maybe the change in Owen had a effect on him. Owen did not treat him as the teaboy, Tosh was friendly so was Gwen, so maybe without Owen's hostility Ianto was able to get the support he needed and the confidence to fully integrate himself into the team after cyberwoman.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Interesting comments. It's (always) clear that you see the characters in ways I don't, and vice versa. I love this episode (except for the scenes of Jack's childhood) and I love it primarily because of the loving bonds it uses to connect Jack with the team. I don't see it as showing a 'dark side' to Ianto at all, or at least, no more of a dark side than anyone might have in their nightmares: it shows Jack's trust of and faith in Ianto, and how, even when Adam had messed up their memories of the truth, they loved and depended on each other. In a more abstract fashion.

As for Gwen - this episode made me like her more than ever, though she's a character I seldom have any problems with.

Owen was cute, downright cute, and I find that very distrubing.

As I see it, Adam was playing on their most specific and deepest needs:

Ianto - needed to do the right thing
Jack - needed to protect those dependent on him
Tosh - needed someone to love
Owen - needed to overcome the anger getting between him and the world
Gwen - needed to resolve her conflicting feelings about her home life with Rhys and her working life with Jack

These needs made them vulnerable to Adam's manipulation, but they all found ways to overcome the weaknesses.

[santousha.livejournal.com]

could you elaborate on those please and how they overcame them?
Especially Ianto's and Owen's. I understand Tosh's and Jack's but Ianto and Owen?
How do you mean?

[bandgeek01.livejournal.com]

I know I'm posting about a month too late, but I had put the link in a Word Document to check out when I had the time to catch up from my vacation. I'm catching up this weekend.

I wanted to say great analysis, I don't agree 100% with you but I can see where you are coming from.

I also enjoyed reading everyone elses comments on this. It made for a great read.

Nicole

[urnssadomen.livejournal.com]

As always, brilliant analysis.

But on a side note, I like to comment on following:
"It's the reason I don't believe these two are each other's one true love, circumstances have created a need that each of them is fulfilling for the other, but I don't think it's forever."

It's not as much I disagree as I don't care much for so called "true love" and it isn't forever anyway. I in general think that's a superfluous term, especially in Jack's case... (Personally, I think it's dubious in general, but let's keep it on TW.) For Jack, everyone he loved was true love to a different extent, please see TTLM. As for forever... nothing is, even the universe ends; as for Janto, they could part away by death, Jack went away, or even pull another Estelle, if TW runs long enough (As I'm writing this, I suddenly want to see a Sex and the City version of Janto; those two make good drama). The point is, let's quote Jack, what really matters is right now. I will never expect them to move in or do anything more domestic than having dinner and movie, let alone having the whole "incomplete without each other"... so I think I do get what you mean by they are not each other's "true love". On the other hand, I do believe they are important, special and exclusive to each other, and will try to stay together as far as the circumstance allows. That's enough to me. Domestic and vows aside, that seems to be all we look for in a lover anyway.

The fact that Jack and Ianto were less effected by losing the connection with each other, only showed that they both had certain level of sturdiness in their psych and a reserved side in their personalities. Not everyone feels the emptiness without TOTL, at least not in the beginning. Then again, they are in a slow burn any way. If either one of them suddenly gets all "something is missing from my life", I will feel weird.

Ianto was the kind of guy who can function as normal even when he was in grave pain; this could be seen from the first half of season 1 all the way through the Greek Bearing Gift, where Tosh heard his pain through the pendant. So I wouldn't completely write him off as unaffected greatly by Adam; it just might be difficult to show (the boy's a drifter, this lot are usually lost even when they appeared most normal.)and unimportant in the plot (it's not a Janto fanfic after all).

As for Jack, like you said, he appear to be harder, more agitated at times (not only when he sees the images of Grey).

True love or not, what's more telling was the natural trust Jack had with Ianto. Even without those connections and with every evidence proving otherwise, he still saw and believed in Ianto's innocence without slight hesitation. I think that's what the episode intended to emphasize on Jack and Ianto's part. Like you said, "In the same way that Tosh and Owen are HUGELY changed by the loss of their defining memories, Jack and Ianto, oddly, are not." I guess this is sort of a "glass half full or half empty" thing...

"Oh, and another little character note about Ianto, though, the later murders I think tell us a lot about him as well. He's quite fucked up about the whole thing, but I do think there's an undercurrent in the lie detector scene that tells us Ianto has within him the capacity to do evil. The boy's got quite a dark side."

Gosh, I love this. "Most accurate lie detector" can't just be a joke... it must detected certain truth in Ianto, but left it for interpretation. I do so hope it's yours.

[urnssadomen.livejournal.com]

BTW, your analysis on Owen and Gwen was dead on.

I always thought Owen was fragile and insecure on the inside.

As for Gwen, the whole "I love Rhys but not the same way I love you" always irritated me. It never made sense as why she said that, until now. So, thank you.