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tencrushAnyone up for an episode discussion? I shall keep this fandom debating if it kills me, you see, and I'm directing my attention to individual episodes in extremely random order. I chose Adam to rewatch, twice, because A)I didn't like it much originally (I still, unfortunately, don't.) and B)I thought it would be nice to approach this episode as a character study, which is essentially, what it is. And there's a C) as well, which is that I've seen a few people mention this episode recently, trying to work out exactly what it was that Adam did to the individual team members, and I thought it would be nice to see if we could work it out amongst us. I won't be discussing the plot, I think we're well aware of what happened, I'm just interested in the characters and what happens to them when Adam feeds his memories in, what it is he replaces, and how this affects the personalities of those involved.
I'll start with the easy ones:
TOSH AND OWEN
Funny, I never noticed the first time around that we see Adam feeding in the memories of his relationship with Tosh. I always kind of assumed that her relationship with Adam was part of what was making her the more confident, sexy Tosh we saw, but actually she's already like that, even before he puts this relationship into her head. I never quite realised that. I also never really quite understood what the relevance was to the round-the-table Jesus scene, but I'm taking it's relevance lies in the fact that the memories they dredge up are the ones that they've lost because of Adam's manipulations. And, as Gwen says when she talks about Rhys's video, it's not so much that these defining memories are GONE, it's that they've become disembodied, detached from the emotions accompanying them. What's happened to Tosh is that she's lost the feelings associated with the memories that define her as being the insecure geek we know her as. That's what Adam has pushed out. Owen is exactly the same, he's lost those feelings that make him the bitter and cynical guy he is. And it's interesting to see how much those insecurities and that cynicism DEFINE Tosh and Owen as people, far more so than any of the others. Tosh and Owen are the ones most affected by Adam's manipulation in terms of their personality. The impression is very much that of all of the team, it is, in fact, Tosh and Owen who are the most broken, emotionally, as people, and the ones who are most easily manipulated, the ones with the weakest personalities. That's not quite what you'd expect, especially not from Owen, but, again, I think a lot of people have a decidedly bizarre view of Owen as some sort of strong alpha type male, when it's things like this (and, again, I'll repeat my point, his blatant insecurities about the teaboy) that show us how weak Owen really is and how much of his personality is a very easily broken down protective front. And, aww, how shippy is this episode, really, when it comes to Tosh and Owen? Owen, hiding behind his cynicism, Tosh, hiding behind her intellect, how good would these two be for each other? Shame they died, eh? Anyway, moving on...
GWEN
I get it now. Well, in a way, I get it. Like I just said, I never quite understood the relevance of the round table, but the round table scene was about them reconnecting with the memories that define them before they forgot what happened. They needed to make those connections in their brains before taking the retcon, because once they've forgotten what's happened they'll have forgotten what it is they've forgotten. It's pretty obvious what Gwen's forgotten, she's forgotten her connection to Rhys. I'm choosing to see the table scene, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, as a brief look at the team's personalities in limbo, caught halfway between the people they are and the people Adam turned them into, as they try to integrate the memories they've lost. Which is where I think Gwen's "not like I love you" towards Jack comes from. I'm choosing to see that as something the Rhysless Gwen feels, simply because I don't quite believe that they'd want to paint such a nasty portrait of Gwen as a two-timing bitch. I can live with that explanation. Only just.
JACK AND IANTO
Like Tosh and Owen, I can't really separate the stories of these two, because I think they're connected. In the same way that Tosh and Owen are HUGELY changed by the loss of their defining memories, Jack and Ianto, oddly, are not. They take Adam's presence as read, and they've lost a connection to each other, but this doesn't seem to affect their personalities to any great extent. Jack seems slightly harder, note his treatment of the Weevil, and Ianto seems slightly more lost at times. But neither of those things make them act drastically differently. Ianto especially seems to be pretty much the same guy. Why are they unaffected? For Jack, I think it's quite simple. He's lost his connection with Ianto, as noted most blatantly the fact that he doesn't want to go weevil hunting with him. I think crucially, though, Adam's done a very clever thing with Jack (probably not by design but completely by accident), in that he's not just inserted himself into Jack's memories, but he's inserted himself AS JACK'S CONFIDANT, the guy he can trust. And as long as Jack has one of those, Jack seems pretty much okay. That's not me trying to negate Ianto's importance to Jack, Jack needs a guy he can trust and confide in and he's chosen Ianto to be that guy. But it illustrates very well exactly what Ianto means when he says that Jack needs him, this is what Jack needs him for. Jack needs someone he can go to when he needs to talk, not someone who'll push him like Gwen, but someone who will just let him talk and leave it at that. (Again, I'm reminded of Fragments and Jack's odd blurtings to Ianto about his life, Ianto's that guy, from the very start) The scene where Adam's pushing Jack to open up illustrates it beautifully, because, like Gwen, Adam doesn't quite get how Jack works, and he's therefore not the right person for Jack. Jack doesn't respond well to being pushed, he gets extremely uncomfortable very quickly. Other than the confidant thing, it's pretty much implied that Jack, what with his huge history, obviously has some sort of anomalous memory anyway, the messing with his head doesn't seem to make him lose any really defining memories, but instead dredge up those of Gray. The interesting thing about the Gray story (which I find hugely tedious) is how much it tells us that Jack's the kind of guy who closes off chapters in his head, who buries things and locks them away in order to function, and I think this is part of the reason Jack's pretty much the same guy. Shippily enough, Ianto seems to function in pretty much the same way. And I think it's why Ianto is also not hugely affected by the changes Adam brings about. In fact, Ianto doesn't seem affected at all in terms of personality. It's revealed in the table scene exactly what Ianto's lost (and yes, Ianto has no life before Torchwood, dudes, he was grown in a vat), and it's a bit of a disturbing picture. He's lost his emotions connected to his memories of Lisa, but also those connected to Jack. I say disturbing, because watching the scene again, it struck me how intertwined these two things really are in Ianto's mind. Take away his feelings for Lisa, and Ianto's need for Jack diminishes, reconnect with Lisa and his feelings for Jack slot back into place as well. How fucked up is this boy in the head? And again, I think at the table we're seeing Ianto in limbo as he reconnects with those feelings that define him, possibly making him a bit more emotional and needy than he would ordinarily be. On the relationship front, I think this episode's a bit of a weird one, because it shows us how much these two trust and believe in each other, but at the same time, in the way they're unaffected by the loss of each other's influence, it shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being. It's the reason I don't believe these two are each other's one true love, circumstances have created a need that each of them is fulfilling for the other, but I don't think it's forever. Oh, and another little character note about Ianto, though, the later murders I think tell us a lot about him as well. He's quite fucked up about the whole thing, but I do think there's an undercurrent in the lie detector scene that tells us Ianto has within him the capacity to do evil. The boy's got quite a dark side.
That's my thinkies on the character aspects of this episode, I'm still not sold on the episode's wonderfulness, I must admit, and I'd like to know what other people think happened, exactly, to the team and their memories.
I can never quite post about Torchwood without fawning a bit over Gareth, so I'll do just that. My favourite scene in this one has to be the one in the car, where Jack turns down Ianto's offer to go Weevil hunting. The turn down seems to slightly confuse Ianto, but not affect him to any great extent. There's another hint here of Ianto's amazing memory, because he quite obviously recalls going weevil hunting with Jack and seems to attach some sort of significance to this, and then, when Jack brushes him off, he shrugs it off, whilst at the same time we see so much going on beneath the surface, like he's trying to put two and two together in his brain about Jack and weevil hunting and something, but he can't quite remember what the something is and then the whole thought process kind of just stops. I love Gareth's face, doing all that without actually saying anything. It's brilliant.
I'll start with the easy ones:
TOSH AND OWEN
Funny, I never noticed the first time around that we see Adam feeding in the memories of his relationship with Tosh. I always kind of assumed that her relationship with Adam was part of what was making her the more confident, sexy Tosh we saw, but actually she's already like that, even before he puts this relationship into her head. I never quite realised that. I also never really quite understood what the relevance was to the round-the-table Jesus scene, but I'm taking it's relevance lies in the fact that the memories they dredge up are the ones that they've lost because of Adam's manipulations. And, as Gwen says when she talks about Rhys's video, it's not so much that these defining memories are GONE, it's that they've become disembodied, detached from the emotions accompanying them. What's happened to Tosh is that she's lost the feelings associated with the memories that define her as being the insecure geek we know her as. That's what Adam has pushed out. Owen is exactly the same, he's lost those feelings that make him the bitter and cynical guy he is. And it's interesting to see how much those insecurities and that cynicism DEFINE Tosh and Owen as people, far more so than any of the others. Tosh and Owen are the ones most affected by Adam's manipulation in terms of their personality. The impression is very much that of all of the team, it is, in fact, Tosh and Owen who are the most broken, emotionally, as people, and the ones who are most easily manipulated, the ones with the weakest personalities. That's not quite what you'd expect, especially not from Owen, but, again, I think a lot of people have a decidedly bizarre view of Owen as some sort of strong alpha type male, when it's things like this (and, again, I'll repeat my point, his blatant insecurities about the teaboy) that show us how weak Owen really is and how much of his personality is a very easily broken down protective front. And, aww, how shippy is this episode, really, when it comes to Tosh and Owen? Owen, hiding behind his cynicism, Tosh, hiding behind her intellect, how good would these two be for each other? Shame they died, eh? Anyway, moving on...
GWEN
I get it now. Well, in a way, I get it. Like I just said, I never quite understood the relevance of the round table, but the round table scene was about them reconnecting with the memories that define them before they forgot what happened. They needed to make those connections in their brains before taking the retcon, because once they've forgotten what's happened they'll have forgotten what it is they've forgotten. It's pretty obvious what Gwen's forgotten, she's forgotten her connection to Rhys. I'm choosing to see the table scene, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, as a brief look at the team's personalities in limbo, caught halfway between the people they are and the people Adam turned them into, as they try to integrate the memories they've lost. Which is where I think Gwen's "not like I love you" towards Jack comes from. I'm choosing to see that as something the Rhysless Gwen feels, simply because I don't quite believe that they'd want to paint such a nasty portrait of Gwen as a two-timing bitch. I can live with that explanation. Only just.
JACK AND IANTO
Like Tosh and Owen, I can't really separate the stories of these two, because I think they're connected. In the same way that Tosh and Owen are HUGELY changed by the loss of their defining memories, Jack and Ianto, oddly, are not. They take Adam's presence as read, and they've lost a connection to each other, but this doesn't seem to affect their personalities to any great extent. Jack seems slightly harder, note his treatment of the Weevil, and Ianto seems slightly more lost at times. But neither of those things make them act drastically differently. Ianto especially seems to be pretty much the same guy. Why are they unaffected? For Jack, I think it's quite simple. He's lost his connection with Ianto, as noted most blatantly the fact that he doesn't want to go weevil hunting with him. I think crucially, though, Adam's done a very clever thing with Jack (probably not by design but completely by accident), in that he's not just inserted himself into Jack's memories, but he's inserted himself AS JACK'S CONFIDANT, the guy he can trust. And as long as Jack has one of those, Jack seems pretty much okay. That's not me trying to negate Ianto's importance to Jack, Jack needs a guy he can trust and confide in and he's chosen Ianto to be that guy. But it illustrates very well exactly what Ianto means when he says that Jack needs him, this is what Jack needs him for. Jack needs someone he can go to when he needs to talk, not someone who'll push him like Gwen, but someone who will just let him talk and leave it at that. (Again, I'm reminded of Fragments and Jack's odd blurtings to Ianto about his life, Ianto's that guy, from the very start) The scene where Adam's pushing Jack to open up illustrates it beautifully, because, like Gwen, Adam doesn't quite get how Jack works, and he's therefore not the right person for Jack. Jack doesn't respond well to being pushed, he gets extremely uncomfortable very quickly. Other than the confidant thing, it's pretty much implied that Jack, what with his huge history, obviously has some sort of anomalous memory anyway, the messing with his head doesn't seem to make him lose any really defining memories, but instead dredge up those of Gray. The interesting thing about the Gray story (which I find hugely tedious) is how much it tells us that Jack's the kind of guy who closes off chapters in his head, who buries things and locks them away in order to function, and I think this is part of the reason Jack's pretty much the same guy. Shippily enough, Ianto seems to function in pretty much the same way. And I think it's why Ianto is also not hugely affected by the changes Adam brings about. In fact, Ianto doesn't seem affected at all in terms of personality. It's revealed in the table scene exactly what Ianto's lost (and yes, Ianto has no life before Torchwood, dudes, he was grown in a vat), and it's a bit of a disturbing picture. He's lost his emotions connected to his memories of Lisa, but also those connected to Jack. I say disturbing, because watching the scene again, it struck me how intertwined these two things really are in Ianto's mind. Take away his feelings for Lisa, and Ianto's need for Jack diminishes, reconnect with Lisa and his feelings for Jack slot back into place as well. How fucked up is this boy in the head? And again, I think at the table we're seeing Ianto in limbo as he reconnects with those feelings that define him, possibly making him a bit more emotional and needy than he would ordinarily be. On the relationship front, I think this episode's a bit of a weird one, because it shows us how much these two trust and believe in each other, but at the same time, in the way they're unaffected by the loss of each other's influence, it shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being. It's the reason I don't believe these two are each other's one true love, circumstances have created a need that each of them is fulfilling for the other, but I don't think it's forever. Oh, and another little character note about Ianto, though, the later murders I think tell us a lot about him as well. He's quite fucked up about the whole thing, but I do think there's an undercurrent in the lie detector scene that tells us Ianto has within him the capacity to do evil. The boy's got quite a dark side.
That's my thinkies on the character aspects of this episode, I'm still not sold on the episode's wonderfulness, I must admit, and I'd like to know what other people think happened, exactly, to the team and their memories.
I can never quite post about Torchwood without fawning a bit over Gareth, so I'll do just that. My favourite scene in this one has to be the one in the car, where Jack turns down Ianto's offer to go Weevil hunting. The turn down seems to slightly confuse Ianto, but not affect him to any great extent. There's another hint here of Ianto's amazing memory, because he quite obviously recalls going weevil hunting with Jack and seems to attach some sort of significance to this, and then, when Jack brushes him off, he shrugs it off, whilst at the same time we see so much going on beneath the surface, like he's trying to put two and two together in his brain about Jack and weevil hunting and something, but he can't quite remember what the something is and then the whole thought process kind of just stops. I love Gareth's face, doing all that without actually saying anything. It's brilliant.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 04:12 pm (UTC)I have to pull you up on something I differ with you on immensely, though. I don't think Ianto-in-a-suit is THAT MUCH of a persona. It's a work persona, yes, but it's probably very close to the work persona he adopted for TW1. Ianto's the kind of guy who dresses for work, and everyone wore a suit to TW1. This idea that Ianto wears the suit to TW3 because Jack thinks the suit is sexy, I think is a fallacy. Jack was attracted to Ianto in their third meeting in Fragments, not to the suit. Their first meeting, that was Ianto dressing up for Jack, and adopting a persona, that was Ianto trying it on with Jack sexually, even though he wasn't actually interested in Jack sexually at that point. Their second meeting, again, was Ianto adopting a persona. He threw himself at Jack's mercy and begged, and Jack didn't fall for it, again, because Ianto's not the kind of guy who begs (and he blatantly showed himself up as the not being the kind of guy who begs by being far too in-your-face at Jack during that meeting. The whole, I-throw-myself-at-your-mercy thing was therefore, as far as Ianto's true personality goes, an act, and Jack saw that). Their third meeting, Ianto is far more relaxed, and is basically the competent well-dressed guy we know him as. He's still begging for a job, but he's no longer putting on an act, he stands up to Jack, he blatantly says no when he thinks something is a bad idea (he's really bossy for someone so desperate, but he's just being himself) and as soon as he relaxes into himself, Jack opens up to him (pheromones), enjoys his company and eventually rolls around the floor laughing with him and offers him a job. I don't think Jack at any point in time offered the job to a guy who wasn't being who he really was. Primarily becasue I think if that were the case, he wouldn't have kept Ianto on after Cyberwoman, but would have sacked and retconned him into 1996.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 04:56 pm (UTC)But it does make me wonder, where was Lisa in this?
Lisa was the main reason he joined torchwood, so how were his memories altered on her. He seemed to care free to still have his past haunting him as it usually does. And he seems too close with the other team members to have the conflict of Cyberwoman have happened.
So what happened to Lisa?
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 04:57 pm (UTC)Which means more meta I guess *yeah*. I truly miss Torchwood and wonder if the fandom will be able to keep itself alive during the in-between season time. I love to read everyone's opinion.
Jack was attracted to Ianto in their third meeting in Fragments, not to the suit.
Yes, it was more of a private joke than a real opinion (I bet Jack would love Ianto in a tutu as well). I'm on the fence here, but I tend to think he tried the 'professional persona' he was using in TW1. It looks more natural on him because he used it a lot while working in TW1 in order to impress Lisa.
he's really bossy for someone so desperate
But he was bossy in his three 'interviews' with Jack. The first time he mocked Jack for pretending he was ok while his head was bleeding, the second time he kept touching Jack who is clearly not wanting to be touched and of course the third time he's openly mocking the dry egg on the collar.
I don't think Jack at any point in time offered the job to a guy who wasn't being who he really was
IMHO, Jack's repulsion of Ianto has little relation to Ianto and more to how Torchwood 1 and everything related killed Rose and tried to hurt/kill the doctor.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 07:17 pm (UTC)Yes, but my point is in the first two he was pretending he wasn't a bossy kind of guy, he was being sexually available, and then needy and submissive, but in both instances he couldn't quite hide the bossy nature of his personality, which is why Jack didn't fall for the sexually available act, or for the needy and submissive one. In the third one he was his normal bossy, competent self, and suddenly Jack's looking a lot more interested. He's still begging for a job, he's still desperate enough that he's willing to be a butler, but he's not hiding his personality in that meeting in any way.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 10:50 pm (UTC)