![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tencrushAnyone up for an episode discussion? I shall keep this fandom debating if it kills me, you see, and I'm directing my attention to individual episodes in extremely random order. I chose Adam to rewatch, twice, because A)I didn't like it much originally (I still, unfortunately, don't.) and B)I thought it would be nice to approach this episode as a character study, which is essentially, what it is. And there's a C) as well, which is that I've seen a few people mention this episode recently, trying to work out exactly what it was that Adam did to the individual team members, and I thought it would be nice to see if we could work it out amongst us. I won't be discussing the plot, I think we're well aware of what happened, I'm just interested in the characters and what happens to them when Adam feeds his memories in, what it is he replaces, and how this affects the personalities of those involved.
I'll start with the easy ones:
TOSH AND OWEN
Funny, I never noticed the first time around that we see Adam feeding in the memories of his relationship with Tosh. I always kind of assumed that her relationship with Adam was part of what was making her the more confident, sexy Tosh we saw, but actually she's already like that, even before he puts this relationship into her head. I never quite realised that. I also never really quite understood what the relevance was to the round-the-table Jesus scene, but I'm taking it's relevance lies in the fact that the memories they dredge up are the ones that they've lost because of Adam's manipulations. And, as Gwen says when she talks about Rhys's video, it's not so much that these defining memories are GONE, it's that they've become disembodied, detached from the emotions accompanying them. What's happened to Tosh is that she's lost the feelings associated with the memories that define her as being the insecure geek we know her as. That's what Adam has pushed out. Owen is exactly the same, he's lost those feelings that make him the bitter and cynical guy he is. And it's interesting to see how much those insecurities and that cynicism DEFINE Tosh and Owen as people, far more so than any of the others. Tosh and Owen are the ones most affected by Adam's manipulation in terms of their personality. The impression is very much that of all of the team, it is, in fact, Tosh and Owen who are the most broken, emotionally, as people, and the ones who are most easily manipulated, the ones with the weakest personalities. That's not quite what you'd expect, especially not from Owen, but, again, I think a lot of people have a decidedly bizarre view of Owen as some sort of strong alpha type male, when it's things like this (and, again, I'll repeat my point, his blatant insecurities about the teaboy) that show us how weak Owen really is and how much of his personality is a very easily broken down protective front. And, aww, how shippy is this episode, really, when it comes to Tosh and Owen? Owen, hiding behind his cynicism, Tosh, hiding behind her intellect, how good would these two be for each other? Shame they died, eh? Anyway, moving on...
GWEN
I get it now. Well, in a way, I get it. Like I just said, I never quite understood the relevance of the round table, but the round table scene was about them reconnecting with the memories that define them before they forgot what happened. They needed to make those connections in their brains before taking the retcon, because once they've forgotten what's happened they'll have forgotten what it is they've forgotten. It's pretty obvious what Gwen's forgotten, she's forgotten her connection to Rhys. I'm choosing to see the table scene, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, as a brief look at the team's personalities in limbo, caught halfway between the people they are and the people Adam turned them into, as they try to integrate the memories they've lost. Which is where I think Gwen's "not like I love you" towards Jack comes from. I'm choosing to see that as something the Rhysless Gwen feels, simply because I don't quite believe that they'd want to paint such a nasty portrait of Gwen as a two-timing bitch. I can live with that explanation. Only just.
JACK AND IANTO
Like Tosh and Owen, I can't really separate the stories of these two, because I think they're connected. In the same way that Tosh and Owen are HUGELY changed by the loss of their defining memories, Jack and Ianto, oddly, are not. They take Adam's presence as read, and they've lost a connection to each other, but this doesn't seem to affect their personalities to any great extent. Jack seems slightly harder, note his treatment of the Weevil, and Ianto seems slightly more lost at times. But neither of those things make them act drastically differently. Ianto especially seems to be pretty much the same guy. Why are they unaffected? For Jack, I think it's quite simple. He's lost his connection with Ianto, as noted most blatantly the fact that he doesn't want to go weevil hunting with him. I think crucially, though, Adam's done a very clever thing with Jack (probably not by design but completely by accident), in that he's not just inserted himself into Jack's memories, but he's inserted himself AS JACK'S CONFIDANT, the guy he can trust. And as long as Jack has one of those, Jack seems pretty much okay. That's not me trying to negate Ianto's importance to Jack, Jack needs a guy he can trust and confide in and he's chosen Ianto to be that guy. But it illustrates very well exactly what Ianto means when he says that Jack needs him, this is what Jack needs him for. Jack needs someone he can go to when he needs to talk, not someone who'll push him like Gwen, but someone who will just let him talk and leave it at that. (Again, I'm reminded of Fragments and Jack's odd blurtings to Ianto about his life, Ianto's that guy, from the very start) The scene where Adam's pushing Jack to open up illustrates it beautifully, because, like Gwen, Adam doesn't quite get how Jack works, and he's therefore not the right person for Jack. Jack doesn't respond well to being pushed, he gets extremely uncomfortable very quickly. Other than the confidant thing, it's pretty much implied that Jack, what with his huge history, obviously has some sort of anomalous memory anyway, the messing with his head doesn't seem to make him lose any really defining memories, but instead dredge up those of Gray. The interesting thing about the Gray story (which I find hugely tedious) is how much it tells us that Jack's the kind of guy who closes off chapters in his head, who buries things and locks them away in order to function, and I think this is part of the reason Jack's pretty much the same guy. Shippily enough, Ianto seems to function in pretty much the same way. And I think it's why Ianto is also not hugely affected by the changes Adam brings about. In fact, Ianto doesn't seem affected at all in terms of personality. It's revealed in the table scene exactly what Ianto's lost (and yes, Ianto has no life before Torchwood, dudes, he was grown in a vat), and it's a bit of a disturbing picture. He's lost his emotions connected to his memories of Lisa, but also those connected to Jack. I say disturbing, because watching the scene again, it struck me how intertwined these two things really are in Ianto's mind. Take away his feelings for Lisa, and Ianto's need for Jack diminishes, reconnect with Lisa and his feelings for Jack slot back into place as well. How fucked up is this boy in the head? And again, I think at the table we're seeing Ianto in limbo as he reconnects with those feelings that define him, possibly making him a bit more emotional and needy than he would ordinarily be. On the relationship front, I think this episode's a bit of a weird one, because it shows us how much these two trust and believe in each other, but at the same time, in the way they're unaffected by the loss of each other's influence, it shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being. It's the reason I don't believe these two are each other's one true love, circumstances have created a need that each of them is fulfilling for the other, but I don't think it's forever. Oh, and another little character note about Ianto, though, the later murders I think tell us a lot about him as well. He's quite fucked up about the whole thing, but I do think there's an undercurrent in the lie detector scene that tells us Ianto has within him the capacity to do evil. The boy's got quite a dark side.
That's my thinkies on the character aspects of this episode, I'm still not sold on the episode's wonderfulness, I must admit, and I'd like to know what other people think happened, exactly, to the team and their memories.
I can never quite post about Torchwood without fawning a bit over Gareth, so I'll do just that. My favourite scene in this one has to be the one in the car, where Jack turns down Ianto's offer to go Weevil hunting. The turn down seems to slightly confuse Ianto, but not affect him to any great extent. There's another hint here of Ianto's amazing memory, because he quite obviously recalls going weevil hunting with Jack and seems to attach some sort of significance to this, and then, when Jack brushes him off, he shrugs it off, whilst at the same time we see so much going on beneath the surface, like he's trying to put two and two together in his brain about Jack and weevil hunting and something, but he can't quite remember what the something is and then the whole thought process kind of just stops. I love Gareth's face, doing all that without actually saying anything. It's brilliant.
I'll start with the easy ones:
TOSH AND OWEN
Funny, I never noticed the first time around that we see Adam feeding in the memories of his relationship with Tosh. I always kind of assumed that her relationship with Adam was part of what was making her the more confident, sexy Tosh we saw, but actually she's already like that, even before he puts this relationship into her head. I never quite realised that. I also never really quite understood what the relevance was to the round-the-table Jesus scene, but I'm taking it's relevance lies in the fact that the memories they dredge up are the ones that they've lost because of Adam's manipulations. And, as Gwen says when she talks about Rhys's video, it's not so much that these defining memories are GONE, it's that they've become disembodied, detached from the emotions accompanying them. What's happened to Tosh is that she's lost the feelings associated with the memories that define her as being the insecure geek we know her as. That's what Adam has pushed out. Owen is exactly the same, he's lost those feelings that make him the bitter and cynical guy he is. And it's interesting to see how much those insecurities and that cynicism DEFINE Tosh and Owen as people, far more so than any of the others. Tosh and Owen are the ones most affected by Adam's manipulation in terms of their personality. The impression is very much that of all of the team, it is, in fact, Tosh and Owen who are the most broken, emotionally, as people, and the ones who are most easily manipulated, the ones with the weakest personalities. That's not quite what you'd expect, especially not from Owen, but, again, I think a lot of people have a decidedly bizarre view of Owen as some sort of strong alpha type male, when it's things like this (and, again, I'll repeat my point, his blatant insecurities about the teaboy) that show us how weak Owen really is and how much of his personality is a very easily broken down protective front. And, aww, how shippy is this episode, really, when it comes to Tosh and Owen? Owen, hiding behind his cynicism, Tosh, hiding behind her intellect, how good would these two be for each other? Shame they died, eh? Anyway, moving on...
GWEN
I get it now. Well, in a way, I get it. Like I just said, I never quite understood the relevance of the round table, but the round table scene was about them reconnecting with the memories that define them before they forgot what happened. They needed to make those connections in their brains before taking the retcon, because once they've forgotten what's happened they'll have forgotten what it is they've forgotten. It's pretty obvious what Gwen's forgotten, she's forgotten her connection to Rhys. I'm choosing to see the table scene, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, as a brief look at the team's personalities in limbo, caught halfway between the people they are and the people Adam turned them into, as they try to integrate the memories they've lost. Which is where I think Gwen's "not like I love you" towards Jack comes from. I'm choosing to see that as something the Rhysless Gwen feels, simply because I don't quite believe that they'd want to paint such a nasty portrait of Gwen as a two-timing bitch. I can live with that explanation. Only just.
JACK AND IANTO
Like Tosh and Owen, I can't really separate the stories of these two, because I think they're connected. In the same way that Tosh and Owen are HUGELY changed by the loss of their defining memories, Jack and Ianto, oddly, are not. They take Adam's presence as read, and they've lost a connection to each other, but this doesn't seem to affect their personalities to any great extent. Jack seems slightly harder, note his treatment of the Weevil, and Ianto seems slightly more lost at times. But neither of those things make them act drastically differently. Ianto especially seems to be pretty much the same guy. Why are they unaffected? For Jack, I think it's quite simple. He's lost his connection with Ianto, as noted most blatantly the fact that he doesn't want to go weevil hunting with him. I think crucially, though, Adam's done a very clever thing with Jack (probably not by design but completely by accident), in that he's not just inserted himself into Jack's memories, but he's inserted himself AS JACK'S CONFIDANT, the guy he can trust. And as long as Jack has one of those, Jack seems pretty much okay. That's not me trying to negate Ianto's importance to Jack, Jack needs a guy he can trust and confide in and he's chosen Ianto to be that guy. But it illustrates very well exactly what Ianto means when he says that Jack needs him, this is what Jack needs him for. Jack needs someone he can go to when he needs to talk, not someone who'll push him like Gwen, but someone who will just let him talk and leave it at that. (Again, I'm reminded of Fragments and Jack's odd blurtings to Ianto about his life, Ianto's that guy, from the very start) The scene where Adam's pushing Jack to open up illustrates it beautifully, because, like Gwen, Adam doesn't quite get how Jack works, and he's therefore not the right person for Jack. Jack doesn't respond well to being pushed, he gets extremely uncomfortable very quickly. Other than the confidant thing, it's pretty much implied that Jack, what with his huge history, obviously has some sort of anomalous memory anyway, the messing with his head doesn't seem to make him lose any really defining memories, but instead dredge up those of Gray. The interesting thing about the Gray story (which I find hugely tedious) is how much it tells us that Jack's the kind of guy who closes off chapters in his head, who buries things and locks them away in order to function, and I think this is part of the reason Jack's pretty much the same guy. Shippily enough, Ianto seems to function in pretty much the same way. And I think it's why Ianto is also not hugely affected by the changes Adam brings about. In fact, Ianto doesn't seem affected at all in terms of personality. It's revealed in the table scene exactly what Ianto's lost (and yes, Ianto has no life before Torchwood, dudes, he was grown in a vat), and it's a bit of a disturbing picture. He's lost his emotions connected to his memories of Lisa, but also those connected to Jack. I say disturbing, because watching the scene again, it struck me how intertwined these two things really are in Ianto's mind. Take away his feelings for Lisa, and Ianto's need for Jack diminishes, reconnect with Lisa and his feelings for Jack slot back into place as well. How fucked up is this boy in the head? And again, I think at the table we're seeing Ianto in limbo as he reconnects with those feelings that define him, possibly making him a bit more emotional and needy than he would ordinarily be. On the relationship front, I think this episode's a bit of a weird one, because it shows us how much these two trust and believe in each other, but at the same time, in the way they're unaffected by the loss of each other's influence, it shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being. It's the reason I don't believe these two are each other's one true love, circumstances have created a need that each of them is fulfilling for the other, but I don't think it's forever. Oh, and another little character note about Ianto, though, the later murders I think tell us a lot about him as well. He's quite fucked up about the whole thing, but I do think there's an undercurrent in the lie detector scene that tells us Ianto has within him the capacity to do evil. The boy's got quite a dark side.
That's my thinkies on the character aspects of this episode, I'm still not sold on the episode's wonderfulness, I must admit, and I'd like to know what other people think happened, exactly, to the team and their memories.
I can never quite post about Torchwood without fawning a bit over Gareth, so I'll do just that. My favourite scene in this one has to be the one in the car, where Jack turns down Ianto's offer to go Weevil hunting. The turn down seems to slightly confuse Ianto, but not affect him to any great extent. There's another hint here of Ianto's amazing memory, because he quite obviously recalls going weevil hunting with Jack and seems to attach some sort of significance to this, and then, when Jack brushes him off, he shrugs it off, whilst at the same time we see so much going on beneath the surface, like he's trying to put two and two together in his brain about Jack and weevil hunting and something, but he can't quite remember what the something is and then the whole thought process kind of just stops. I love Gareth's face, doing all that without actually saying anything. It's brilliant.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 04:54 pm (UTC)I too was perplexed by the claim that Adam "shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being." In my mind, that's more or less a credit to their relationship, not something that diminishes it. If it isn't something that is built on neediness and codependency... that seems rather healthy to me.
It's interesting, too, that even without the memories (and we don't know exactly how much they lost, though Ianto's "Love's blind" comment definately leads me to believe that he's forgotten Lisa, and since it's significant that Adam is now Jack's confidant, any Jack/Ianto relationship is probably a lot more casual), they retain their faith in eachother.
To me that suggests that their relationship is, in fact, based in trust and personal connection, rather than in circumstances (which they've forgotten). You could see it as being a subtle parallel of Gwen/Rhys, since Rhys too expresses a concern that without the memories of circumstances, they've got nothing.
I wonder what would have happened to Gwen/Rhys if Rhys had also forgotten.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 06:35 pm (UTC)I've always been (pleasantly) surprised at how healthy their relationship appears to be, particularly given how messed-up they are and the inherent issues that stem from being in a workplace relationship. And while I happily ship them in my fic, I don't really see them as OTP either. Possibly loving, longish-term partners? Sure. OTP? This is Jack we're talking about...
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 08:22 pm (UTC)And while I happily ship them in my fic, I don't really see them as OTP either. Possibly loving, longish-term partners? Sure.
I agree there too. But then again, I am perfectly happy with the idea that Ianto is one in a long (long) list of people that Jack loves. Anything else isn't fair to Jack, not because he's a flirt, but because he's immortal. And whatever they are seems to be working for them, so it works for me.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 06:40 pm (UTC)I've never thought that Jack and Ianto's relationship was interrupted during this episode. Quite the opposite; it felt very strong, to me.
The "love's blind" comment is interesting. I suppooooooose I have to rewatch. ;-)
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 07:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 07:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 08:16 pm (UTC)But did he? The first time he mentions Lisa, it's at the end, when Gwen remembers details about Rhys, Owen his mother, Tosh her loneliness... I thought that scene was about recovering the touchstones that were "lost" and Ianto lists both Lisa and Jack there.
Just thinking out loud, really. It's a bit annoying that we don't really know the extent that Adam messed with Ianto's memories.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 08:28 pm (UTC)Agreed. Somebody has to get the early drafts of the script from Gareth. This is Need To Know.
Who's up for enticing the truth out of GDL? I'm not enticing in any way, so I leave it to my betters. (But you'd better share all the info!) ;-)