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tencrushAnyone up for an episode discussion? I shall keep this fandom debating if it kills me, you see, and I'm directing my attention to individual episodes in extremely random order. I chose Adam to rewatch, twice, because A)I didn't like it much originally (I still, unfortunately, don't.) and B)I thought it would be nice to approach this episode as a character study, which is essentially, what it is. And there's a C) as well, which is that I've seen a few people mention this episode recently, trying to work out exactly what it was that Adam did to the individual team members, and I thought it would be nice to see if we could work it out amongst us. I won't be discussing the plot, I think we're well aware of what happened, I'm just interested in the characters and what happens to them when Adam feeds his memories in, what it is he replaces, and how this affects the personalities of those involved.
I'll start with the easy ones:
TOSH AND OWEN
Funny, I never noticed the first time around that we see Adam feeding in the memories of his relationship with Tosh. I always kind of assumed that her relationship with Adam was part of what was making her the more confident, sexy Tosh we saw, but actually she's already like that, even before he puts this relationship into her head. I never quite realised that. I also never really quite understood what the relevance was to the round-the-table Jesus scene, but I'm taking it's relevance lies in the fact that the memories they dredge up are the ones that they've lost because of Adam's manipulations. And, as Gwen says when she talks about Rhys's video, it's not so much that these defining memories are GONE, it's that they've become disembodied, detached from the emotions accompanying them. What's happened to Tosh is that she's lost the feelings associated with the memories that define her as being the insecure geek we know her as. That's what Adam has pushed out. Owen is exactly the same, he's lost those feelings that make him the bitter and cynical guy he is. And it's interesting to see how much those insecurities and that cynicism DEFINE Tosh and Owen as people, far more so than any of the others. Tosh and Owen are the ones most affected by Adam's manipulation in terms of their personality. The impression is very much that of all of the team, it is, in fact, Tosh and Owen who are the most broken, emotionally, as people, and the ones who are most easily manipulated, the ones with the weakest personalities. That's not quite what you'd expect, especially not from Owen, but, again, I think a lot of people have a decidedly bizarre view of Owen as some sort of strong alpha type male, when it's things like this (and, again, I'll repeat my point, his blatant insecurities about the teaboy) that show us how weak Owen really is and how much of his personality is a very easily broken down protective front. And, aww, how shippy is this episode, really, when it comes to Tosh and Owen? Owen, hiding behind his cynicism, Tosh, hiding behind her intellect, how good would these two be for each other? Shame they died, eh? Anyway, moving on...
GWEN
I get it now. Well, in a way, I get it. Like I just said, I never quite understood the relevance of the round table, but the round table scene was about them reconnecting with the memories that define them before they forgot what happened. They needed to make those connections in their brains before taking the retcon, because once they've forgotten what's happened they'll have forgotten what it is they've forgotten. It's pretty obvious what Gwen's forgotten, she's forgotten her connection to Rhys. I'm choosing to see the table scene, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, as a brief look at the team's personalities in limbo, caught halfway between the people they are and the people Adam turned them into, as they try to integrate the memories they've lost. Which is where I think Gwen's "not like I love you" towards Jack comes from. I'm choosing to see that as something the Rhysless Gwen feels, simply because I don't quite believe that they'd want to paint such a nasty portrait of Gwen as a two-timing bitch. I can live with that explanation. Only just.
JACK AND IANTO
Like Tosh and Owen, I can't really separate the stories of these two, because I think they're connected. In the same way that Tosh and Owen are HUGELY changed by the loss of their defining memories, Jack and Ianto, oddly, are not. They take Adam's presence as read, and they've lost a connection to each other, but this doesn't seem to affect their personalities to any great extent. Jack seems slightly harder, note his treatment of the Weevil, and Ianto seems slightly more lost at times. But neither of those things make them act drastically differently. Ianto especially seems to be pretty much the same guy. Why are they unaffected? For Jack, I think it's quite simple. He's lost his connection with Ianto, as noted most blatantly the fact that he doesn't want to go weevil hunting with him. I think crucially, though, Adam's done a very clever thing with Jack (probably not by design but completely by accident), in that he's not just inserted himself into Jack's memories, but he's inserted himself AS JACK'S CONFIDANT, the guy he can trust. And as long as Jack has one of those, Jack seems pretty much okay. That's not me trying to negate Ianto's importance to Jack, Jack needs a guy he can trust and confide in and he's chosen Ianto to be that guy. But it illustrates very well exactly what Ianto means when he says that Jack needs him, this is what Jack needs him for. Jack needs someone he can go to when he needs to talk, not someone who'll push him like Gwen, but someone who will just let him talk and leave it at that. (Again, I'm reminded of Fragments and Jack's odd blurtings to Ianto about his life, Ianto's that guy, from the very start) The scene where Adam's pushing Jack to open up illustrates it beautifully, because, like Gwen, Adam doesn't quite get how Jack works, and he's therefore not the right person for Jack. Jack doesn't respond well to being pushed, he gets extremely uncomfortable very quickly. Other than the confidant thing, it's pretty much implied that Jack, what with his huge history, obviously has some sort of anomalous memory anyway, the messing with his head doesn't seem to make him lose any really defining memories, but instead dredge up those of Gray. The interesting thing about the Gray story (which I find hugely tedious) is how much it tells us that Jack's the kind of guy who closes off chapters in his head, who buries things and locks them away in order to function, and I think this is part of the reason Jack's pretty much the same guy. Shippily enough, Ianto seems to function in pretty much the same way. And I think it's why Ianto is also not hugely affected by the changes Adam brings about. In fact, Ianto doesn't seem affected at all in terms of personality. It's revealed in the table scene exactly what Ianto's lost (and yes, Ianto has no life before Torchwood, dudes, he was grown in a vat), and it's a bit of a disturbing picture. He's lost his emotions connected to his memories of Lisa, but also those connected to Jack. I say disturbing, because watching the scene again, it struck me how intertwined these two things really are in Ianto's mind. Take away his feelings for Lisa, and Ianto's need for Jack diminishes, reconnect with Lisa and his feelings for Jack slot back into place as well. How fucked up is this boy in the head? And again, I think at the table we're seeing Ianto in limbo as he reconnects with those feelings that define him, possibly making him a bit more emotional and needy than he would ordinarily be. On the relationship front, I think this episode's a bit of a weird one, because it shows us how much these two trust and believe in each other, but at the same time, in the way they're unaffected by the loss of each other's influence, it shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being. It's the reason I don't believe these two are each other's one true love, circumstances have created a need that each of them is fulfilling for the other, but I don't think it's forever. Oh, and another little character note about Ianto, though, the later murders I think tell us a lot about him as well. He's quite fucked up about the whole thing, but I do think there's an undercurrent in the lie detector scene that tells us Ianto has within him the capacity to do evil. The boy's got quite a dark side.
That's my thinkies on the character aspects of this episode, I'm still not sold on the episode's wonderfulness, I must admit, and I'd like to know what other people think happened, exactly, to the team and their memories.
I can never quite post about Torchwood without fawning a bit over Gareth, so I'll do just that. My favourite scene in this one has to be the one in the car, where Jack turns down Ianto's offer to go Weevil hunting. The turn down seems to slightly confuse Ianto, but not affect him to any great extent. There's another hint here of Ianto's amazing memory, because he quite obviously recalls going weevil hunting with Jack and seems to attach some sort of significance to this, and then, when Jack brushes him off, he shrugs it off, whilst at the same time we see so much going on beneath the surface, like he's trying to put two and two together in his brain about Jack and weevil hunting and something, but he can't quite remember what the something is and then the whole thought process kind of just stops. I love Gareth's face, doing all that without actually saying anything. It's brilliant.
I'll start with the easy ones:
TOSH AND OWEN
Funny, I never noticed the first time around that we see Adam feeding in the memories of his relationship with Tosh. I always kind of assumed that her relationship with Adam was part of what was making her the more confident, sexy Tosh we saw, but actually she's already like that, even before he puts this relationship into her head. I never quite realised that. I also never really quite understood what the relevance was to the round-the-table Jesus scene, but I'm taking it's relevance lies in the fact that the memories they dredge up are the ones that they've lost because of Adam's manipulations. And, as Gwen says when she talks about Rhys's video, it's not so much that these defining memories are GONE, it's that they've become disembodied, detached from the emotions accompanying them. What's happened to Tosh is that she's lost the feelings associated with the memories that define her as being the insecure geek we know her as. That's what Adam has pushed out. Owen is exactly the same, he's lost those feelings that make him the bitter and cynical guy he is. And it's interesting to see how much those insecurities and that cynicism DEFINE Tosh and Owen as people, far more so than any of the others. Tosh and Owen are the ones most affected by Adam's manipulation in terms of their personality. The impression is very much that of all of the team, it is, in fact, Tosh and Owen who are the most broken, emotionally, as people, and the ones who are most easily manipulated, the ones with the weakest personalities. That's not quite what you'd expect, especially not from Owen, but, again, I think a lot of people have a decidedly bizarre view of Owen as some sort of strong alpha type male, when it's things like this (and, again, I'll repeat my point, his blatant insecurities about the teaboy) that show us how weak Owen really is and how much of his personality is a very easily broken down protective front. And, aww, how shippy is this episode, really, when it comes to Tosh and Owen? Owen, hiding behind his cynicism, Tosh, hiding behind her intellect, how good would these two be for each other? Shame they died, eh? Anyway, moving on...
GWEN
I get it now. Well, in a way, I get it. Like I just said, I never quite understood the relevance of the round table, but the round table scene was about them reconnecting with the memories that define them before they forgot what happened. They needed to make those connections in their brains before taking the retcon, because once they've forgotten what's happened they'll have forgotten what it is they've forgotten. It's pretty obvious what Gwen's forgotten, she's forgotten her connection to Rhys. I'm choosing to see the table scene, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, as a brief look at the team's personalities in limbo, caught halfway between the people they are and the people Adam turned them into, as they try to integrate the memories they've lost. Which is where I think Gwen's "not like I love you" towards Jack comes from. I'm choosing to see that as something the Rhysless Gwen feels, simply because I don't quite believe that they'd want to paint such a nasty portrait of Gwen as a two-timing bitch. I can live with that explanation. Only just.
JACK AND IANTO
Like Tosh and Owen, I can't really separate the stories of these two, because I think they're connected. In the same way that Tosh and Owen are HUGELY changed by the loss of their defining memories, Jack and Ianto, oddly, are not. They take Adam's presence as read, and they've lost a connection to each other, but this doesn't seem to affect their personalities to any great extent. Jack seems slightly harder, note his treatment of the Weevil, and Ianto seems slightly more lost at times. But neither of those things make them act drastically differently. Ianto especially seems to be pretty much the same guy. Why are they unaffected? For Jack, I think it's quite simple. He's lost his connection with Ianto, as noted most blatantly the fact that he doesn't want to go weevil hunting with him. I think crucially, though, Adam's done a very clever thing with Jack (probably not by design but completely by accident), in that he's not just inserted himself into Jack's memories, but he's inserted himself AS JACK'S CONFIDANT, the guy he can trust. And as long as Jack has one of those, Jack seems pretty much okay. That's not me trying to negate Ianto's importance to Jack, Jack needs a guy he can trust and confide in and he's chosen Ianto to be that guy. But it illustrates very well exactly what Ianto means when he says that Jack needs him, this is what Jack needs him for. Jack needs someone he can go to when he needs to talk, not someone who'll push him like Gwen, but someone who will just let him talk and leave it at that. (Again, I'm reminded of Fragments and Jack's odd blurtings to Ianto about his life, Ianto's that guy, from the very start) The scene where Adam's pushing Jack to open up illustrates it beautifully, because, like Gwen, Adam doesn't quite get how Jack works, and he's therefore not the right person for Jack. Jack doesn't respond well to being pushed, he gets extremely uncomfortable very quickly. Other than the confidant thing, it's pretty much implied that Jack, what with his huge history, obviously has some sort of anomalous memory anyway, the messing with his head doesn't seem to make him lose any really defining memories, but instead dredge up those of Gray. The interesting thing about the Gray story (which I find hugely tedious) is how much it tells us that Jack's the kind of guy who closes off chapters in his head, who buries things and locks them away in order to function, and I think this is part of the reason Jack's pretty much the same guy. Shippily enough, Ianto seems to function in pretty much the same way. And I think it's why Ianto is also not hugely affected by the changes Adam brings about. In fact, Ianto doesn't seem affected at all in terms of personality. It's revealed in the table scene exactly what Ianto's lost (and yes, Ianto has no life before Torchwood, dudes, he was grown in a vat), and it's a bit of a disturbing picture. He's lost his emotions connected to his memories of Lisa, but also those connected to Jack. I say disturbing, because watching the scene again, it struck me how intertwined these two things really are in Ianto's mind. Take away his feelings for Lisa, and Ianto's need for Jack diminishes, reconnect with Lisa and his feelings for Jack slot back into place as well. How fucked up is this boy in the head? And again, I think at the table we're seeing Ianto in limbo as he reconnects with those feelings that define him, possibly making him a bit more emotional and needy than he would ordinarily be. On the relationship front, I think this episode's a bit of a weird one, because it shows us how much these two trust and believe in each other, but at the same time, in the way they're unaffected by the loss of each other's influence, it shows us neither of them really need each other hugely in order to function as pretty much the same human being. It's the reason I don't believe these two are each other's one true love, circumstances have created a need that each of them is fulfilling for the other, but I don't think it's forever. Oh, and another little character note about Ianto, though, the later murders I think tell us a lot about him as well. He's quite fucked up about the whole thing, but I do think there's an undercurrent in the lie detector scene that tells us Ianto has within him the capacity to do evil. The boy's got quite a dark side.
That's my thinkies on the character aspects of this episode, I'm still not sold on the episode's wonderfulness, I must admit, and I'd like to know what other people think happened, exactly, to the team and their memories.
I can never quite post about Torchwood without fawning a bit over Gareth, so I'll do just that. My favourite scene in this one has to be the one in the car, where Jack turns down Ianto's offer to go Weevil hunting. The turn down seems to slightly confuse Ianto, but not affect him to any great extent. There's another hint here of Ianto's amazing memory, because he quite obviously recalls going weevil hunting with Jack and seems to attach some sort of significance to this, and then, when Jack brushes him off, he shrugs it off, whilst at the same time we see so much going on beneath the surface, like he's trying to put two and two together in his brain about Jack and weevil hunting and something, but he can't quite remember what the something is and then the whole thought process kind of just stops. I love Gareth's face, doing all that without actually saying anything. It's brilliant.
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no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 01:50 pm (UTC)To me there was still a relationship but their relationship was still at the level it was in season 1. Adam was Jack's confidant and Ianto merely his lover. He still cares for him but he goes to Adam with his troubles.
Ianto grown in a vat? Likely :)
Gareth keeps making statements like that. Torchwood is all Ianto has, al he is. I do think out of all of them he is the most devoted to Torchwood. Torchwood is his whole world.
Maybe he has good memories of his childhood, and after he lost his family he drifted to find himself. He found torchwood, a new family in Lisa. He clung to her and then he lost her just like he lost his family. After all this lost he forced himself to cling to a man he knew would never die on him. So could not hurt him that way.
I bet his defining moment is Lisa because she gave him something he had gave up looking for. A sense of belonging, a family and love.
When death came for her it brought back the loss of his family and maybe that's when he decided to cling to Jack to give him all of that.
I know he was always attracted to Jack, but maybe Lisa's death is what pushed him closer to him. He replaced Lisa with Jack in a way.
Does that make sense?
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 03:38 pm (UTC)Yep, that's how I interpreted that scene. Additionally, I interpreted Ianto's offer as being made simply because he could see Jack was distraught and distracted by what he believed he saw, and he didn't want Jack hunting alone while in such a state.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 04:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 04:43 pm (UTC)And Jack just had too much on his mind so he declined the offer.
It honestly never occurred to me that JANTO was nonexistent in Adamverse. Those 2 were together a lot in the ep like they were the primary field agents and that is established that they were partners in the work sense.
Also to me Adamverse!Ianto did seem different. He was a bit more of a extrovert, flirtatious and really seemed to be a part of the team.
Usually he was always a bit separate. He was part of the team, but you could always tell he considered himself a bit of a outsider. But in Adamverse he was really part of the unit.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 04:58 pm (UTC)As for Ianto, I wouldn't go so far as to say he was fully part of the team -- if you look at the scene in the conference room where he says he'll go consult his diary, he's still holding himself a bit apart from Tosh and Owen. But yes on his being a bit more extroverted and relaxed than usual. He looked so cute in that scene with Gwen where they are discussing Owen's crush on Tosh! Which also strikes me as something he wouldn't normally do -- indulge in gossiping about a colleague.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 06:44 pm (UTC)Jack seemed to perk up when Ianto first called out to him in the hub, like "Oh, good, Ianto's here, we can have a shag!" before he realizes something was wrong with Ianto.
We were definitely watching it on the same channel. :-)
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 05:01 pm (UTC)Myself, I'd wondered if that was a result of having forgotten Lisa and all the betrayal, deception, and grief that came with her, as well the desire to make up for it afterwards. And really, since Adam did claim that he was changing the team "for the better," it's possibly he took all of Ianto's memories of Canary Wharf. This may in fact be the Ianto who worked at Torchwood One.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 05:24 pm (UTC)His sole reason for going to TW3 was because of Lisa. And the thing with Lisa happened at Canary Wharf. So what's up with that?
Maybe Adam changed how he dealt with the whole ordeal. Maybe Adam made him "remember" that he had been there for him during that hard time and helped him find himself again.
I mean he made himself Jack and Tosh's confident, maybe he did the same for Ianto.
Just a theory, what do think?
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 05:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 08:33 pm (UTC)That's a really good question. I'm not sure. On the one hand, I could say, "Adam's not that thorough," but that would be taking the easy way out
like the Torchwood writers would. ;)I mean he made himself Jack and Tosh's confident, maybe he did the same for Ianto.
Just a theory, what do think?
Ooh. I do like this theory, and it fits really well into the way he interacts with the others. Adam seems to need to feel needed--I noticed that in another comment, someone else pointed out that he inserted himself into the serial killer memories when he really didn't need to.
This would play out interestingly too. The Jack/Ianto relationship probably did develop out of the time post-Cyberwoman, when Jack presumably helped Ianto through it. If Adam inserted himself in as Ianto's confidant, it would logically knock out a bunch of memories of his time with Jack, since those memories would be at odds with the new, Adam-centric ones.
Hmmm. I must consider this.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-21 01:09 am (UTC)To me the scene where Jack finds Ianto in the hub, if I take everything discussed above into account, means that Jack and Ianto had a close relationship before Cyberwoman. If Adam inserted himself as Ianto's confidant and helped him through his Canary Wharf trauma and the cyberwoman drama and yet Ianto still goes to Jack eventhough the postcyberwoman relationship was not built up in Adamverse; does that mean that Jack and Ianto were close during Ianto's first weeks at torchwood.
Maybe since they both spent the after hours still at the hub Jack took that time and told him things about his past, just like in Fragments. That could explain his anger in Cyberwoman. He probably saw Ianto as a friend and confindant even then and felt betrayed.
So the closeness was there pre-cyberwoman and Adam only inserted himself in the post-cyberwoman memories, as the pre-cyberwoman memories did not seem as significant to Adam.
But why?