I spam you with my Jantotheories!!
Mar. 27th, 2008 12:37 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tencrushRight, fine, a few comments I received to my last post made me realise I could be looking at this all wrong. I've always assumed that, at the point we're at now, Jack/Ianto involves LOVE on Ianto's part and none or less on Jack's. Not overtly, anyway. Mainly, I've assumed there's love on Ianto's part because A)Gareth TOLD ME SO, B)the scene in Adam at the table and C)an overall kind of doe-eyed impression Ianto is giving off. Which is cool, I'm cool with that. I've always just assumed though, that if Jack is in love with Ianto, he is so TO A LESSER DEGREE than Ianto is with him. But maybe I'm wrong.
My reasonings that Jack isn't in love with Ianto or to the same extent had a lot to do with this weird Jack/Gwen thing, but I realise now I'm not really sold on the idea that that was Jack BEING IN LOVE WITH Gwen, at all. I think she reminds him of Rose and she embodies something he'd like to be, but I just don't know anything beyond that. I've mentioned before that I find JB has a very confusing on screen chemistry with Eve, and it feels like HE doesn't know from which angle he's supposed to be approaching her half the time, and that's probably half the reason I think Jack's such a fickle bastard. JB's ackting skillz aside, maybe there really isn't that much left to be bothered about. I mean, there hasn't really been anything that's been said or done on screen to imply there's anything going on. (I read something the other day where someone said Gwen was humouring the shape shifter in Something Borrowed because she knew it wasn't Jack all along. That theory kind of sits better with me, because I just can't buy them trying to make her that much of a bitch. It was her WEDDING DAY, ffs.) All we've really seen is some serious personal space invasion in a gun shooting scene, which possibly was just there to illustrate that that's JUST HOW JACK IS, rather than anything more in the way of Jack's feelings towards Gwen. I am actually starting to completely handwave Jack/Gwen as weird acting and ambiguous writing and nothing more.
All of which leaves me with the Jack/Ianto interactions. My major gripe was the NEVER ENDING implications of kink. Funnily enough though, thinking about it, the stopwatch was Ianto's. As was the measuring tape, and the inside leg insinuations. In fact, there's nothing telling us that the kink in their relationship is Jack's idea, far from it, apart from the Unit cap. Jack just always comes across to people as canonically such an omnisexual slut, that I think people have naturally assumed that the fun and games attitude in their sex life, and the kink, is coming from him. I'm starting to believe that's a VERY WRONG assumption. I think Ianto's the kinky bastard. Now that doesn't actually mean anything in the scheme of who's in love with whom, but it does kind of deflate the argument that Jack's just in this thing for kicks if Jack's not the one initiating the kicks. And I'm starting to believe he's not.
As for the actual emotional interaction they've had, well, there was the date thing, and the talk in TTLM. Both of which kind of amounted to the same thing. My take on the date conversation was always a simple one, I wrote it at the time, and I still believe it to be the case now, Ianto's reaction is pretty much "If I say yes will you stop talking to me and go away, you weirdo?" Jack's the one opening himself up and Ianto's the one cutting off with a "Yes, fine, whatever." I interpreted that reaction as one of "Can we not do this NOW, now is a really bad time to be doing this." But who's to say it's not just "Can we NOT DO THIS. I'm not ready to do this." Again, in To The Last Man, Jack opens up emotionally and essentially, albeit it in a pretty convoluted way, tells Ianto he loves him. Now, again, I, and many others, interpreted that scene as Ianto really not expecting or daring to hope for that much from Jack in the way of emotional involvement and responding rather overenthusiastically, but it could just as easily be read as Ianto NOT WANTING TO GO THERE, and shutting him up by shoving his tongue down his throat.
Now I'm not sure which of these interpretations is more valid, though I'm veering towards this one, having seen Fragments. I DO think Ianto is in love with Jack, and I think he probably has been for a very long time, but the one holding the relationship back because he DOESN'T WANT TO GO THERE, I think may very well be Ianto, and not Jack. Possibly. Maybe? I don't know anymore. I really wish we'd seen The Date. That might have helped.
It's funny, really, if I take Jack/Gwen out of the equation, Jack/Ianto comes across quite differently. I've reached saturation point with the Jack/Gwen thing, and therefore I'm now actively pretending it doesn't and didn't exist. Kind of like what they did with Gwen/Owen. Rethink our canon slash without the gappy toothed distraction, and you get a whole different story. Has my brain just finally given up? Am I thinking about this show WAAYYYY too much?
My reasonings that Jack isn't in love with Ianto or to the same extent had a lot to do with this weird Jack/Gwen thing, but I realise now I'm not really sold on the idea that that was Jack BEING IN LOVE WITH Gwen, at all. I think she reminds him of Rose and she embodies something he'd like to be, but I just don't know anything beyond that. I've mentioned before that I find JB has a very confusing on screen chemistry with Eve, and it feels like HE doesn't know from which angle he's supposed to be approaching her half the time, and that's probably half the reason I think Jack's such a fickle bastard. JB's ackting skillz aside, maybe there really isn't that much left to be bothered about. I mean, there hasn't really been anything that's been said or done on screen to imply there's anything going on. (I read something the other day where someone said Gwen was humouring the shape shifter in Something Borrowed because she knew it wasn't Jack all along. That theory kind of sits better with me, because I just can't buy them trying to make her that much of a bitch. It was her WEDDING DAY, ffs.) All we've really seen is some serious personal space invasion in a gun shooting scene, which possibly was just there to illustrate that that's JUST HOW JACK IS, rather than anything more in the way of Jack's feelings towards Gwen. I am actually starting to completely handwave Jack/Gwen as weird acting and ambiguous writing and nothing more.
All of which leaves me with the Jack/Ianto interactions. My major gripe was the NEVER ENDING implications of kink. Funnily enough though, thinking about it, the stopwatch was Ianto's. As was the measuring tape, and the inside leg insinuations. In fact, there's nothing telling us that the kink in their relationship is Jack's idea, far from it, apart from the Unit cap. Jack just always comes across to people as canonically such an omnisexual slut, that I think people have naturally assumed that the fun and games attitude in their sex life, and the kink, is coming from him. I'm starting to believe that's a VERY WRONG assumption. I think Ianto's the kinky bastard. Now that doesn't actually mean anything in the scheme of who's in love with whom, but it does kind of deflate the argument that Jack's just in this thing for kicks if Jack's not the one initiating the kicks. And I'm starting to believe he's not.
As for the actual emotional interaction they've had, well, there was the date thing, and the talk in TTLM. Both of which kind of amounted to the same thing. My take on the date conversation was always a simple one, I wrote it at the time, and I still believe it to be the case now, Ianto's reaction is pretty much "If I say yes will you stop talking to me and go away, you weirdo?" Jack's the one opening himself up and Ianto's the one cutting off with a "Yes, fine, whatever." I interpreted that reaction as one of "Can we not do this NOW, now is a really bad time to be doing this." But who's to say it's not just "Can we NOT DO THIS. I'm not ready to do this." Again, in To The Last Man, Jack opens up emotionally and essentially, albeit it in a pretty convoluted way, tells Ianto he loves him. Now, again, I, and many others, interpreted that scene as Ianto really not expecting or daring to hope for that much from Jack in the way of emotional involvement and responding rather overenthusiastically, but it could just as easily be read as Ianto NOT WANTING TO GO THERE, and shutting him up by shoving his tongue down his throat.
Now I'm not sure which of these interpretations is more valid, though I'm veering towards this one, having seen Fragments. I DO think Ianto is in love with Jack, and I think he probably has been for a very long time, but the one holding the relationship back because he DOESN'T WANT TO GO THERE, I think may very well be Ianto, and not Jack. Possibly. Maybe? I don't know anymore. I really wish we'd seen The Date. That might have helped.
It's funny, really, if I take Jack/Gwen out of the equation, Jack/Ianto comes across quite differently. I've reached saturation point with the Jack/Gwen thing, and therefore I'm now actively pretending it doesn't and didn't exist. Kind of like what they did with Gwen/Owen. Rethink our canon slash without the gappy toothed distraction, and you get a whole different story. Has my brain just finally given up? Am I thinking about this show WAAYYYY too much?
no subject
Date: 2008-03-27 07:36 pm (UTC)Well, we have the conversation in "To the Last Man," we have Implied Comfort in the Woobie Stare Up To Jack On High in "Cyberwoman," there's the unforgettable hug and kiss in "End Of Days," the kiss on the forehead and the several hugs in "Adam," the dance in "Something Borrowed." There's quite a list, to coin a phrase.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-27 10:23 pm (UTC)No pies will be awarded for that answer. :-)
Rowanswhimsy's Rules About Hurt/Comfort:
1. The comforter must make physical as well as emotional contact with the woobie. Staring from afar at the woobie doesn't qualify unless the comforter is desperately trying to make contact but is prevented by a physical barrier or limitation or the complete mental breakdown of the woobie. If the comforter is capable of implanting visions in the woobie's head, an exception may be granted.
2. Staring at someone else longingly or even constipatedly while offering comfort to the woobie doesn't qualify. The woobie must have the entire focus of the comforter.
3. If the woobie's memory of the comfort is wiped out, then only half points are awarded.