tencrush | I spam you with my Jantotheories!!

Right, fine, a few comments I received to my last post made me realise I could be looking at this all wrong. I've always assumed that, at the point we're at now, Jack/Ianto involves LOVE on Ianto's part and none or less on Jack's. Not overtly, anyway. Mainly, I've assumed there's love on Ianto's part because A)Gareth TOLD ME SO, B)the scene in Adam at the table and C)an overall kind of doe-eyed impression Ianto is giving off. Which is cool, I'm cool with that. I've always just assumed though, that if Jack is in love with Ianto, he is so TO A LESSER DEGREE than Ianto is with him. But maybe I'm wrong.

My reasonings that Jack isn't in love with Ianto or to the same extent had a lot to do with this weird Jack/Gwen thing, but I realise now I'm not really sold on the idea that that was Jack BEING IN LOVE WITH Gwen, at all. I think she reminds him of Rose and she embodies something he'd like to be, but I just don't know anything beyond that. I've mentioned before that I find JB has a very confusing on screen chemistry with Eve, and it feels like HE doesn't know from which angle he's supposed to be approaching her half the time, and that's probably half the reason I think Jack's such a fickle bastard. JB's ackting skillz aside, maybe there really isn't that much left to be bothered about. I mean, there hasn't really been anything that's been said or done on screen to imply there's anything going on. (I read something the other day where someone said Gwen was humouring the shape shifter in Something Borrowed because she knew it wasn't Jack all along. That theory kind of sits better with me, because I just can't buy them trying to make her that much of a bitch. It was her WEDDING DAY, ffs.) All we've really seen is some serious personal space invasion in a gun shooting scene, which possibly was just there to illustrate that that's JUST HOW JACK IS, rather than anything more in the way of Jack's feelings towards Gwen. I am actually starting to completely handwave Jack/Gwen as weird acting and ambiguous writing and nothing more.

All of which leaves me with the Jack/Ianto interactions. My major gripe was the NEVER ENDING implications of kink. Funnily enough though, thinking about it, the stopwatch was Ianto's. As was the measuring tape, and the inside leg insinuations. In fact, there's nothing telling us that the kink in their relationship is Jack's idea, far from it, apart from the Unit cap. Jack just always comes across to people as canonically such an omnisexual slut, that I think people have naturally assumed that the fun and games attitude in their sex life, and the kink, is coming from him. I'm starting to believe that's a VERY WRONG assumption. I think Ianto's the kinky bastard. Now that doesn't actually mean anything in the scheme of who's in love with whom, but it does kind of deflate the argument that Jack's just in this thing for kicks if Jack's not the one initiating the kicks. And I'm starting to believe he's not.

As for the actual emotional interaction they've had, well, there was the date thing, and the talk in TTLM. Both of which kind of amounted to the same thing. My take on the date conversation was always a simple one, I wrote it at the time, and I still believe it to be the case now, Ianto's reaction is pretty much "If I say yes will you stop talking to me and go away, you weirdo?" Jack's the one opening himself up and Ianto's the one cutting off with a "Yes, fine, whatever." I interpreted that reaction as one of "Can we not do this NOW, now is a really bad time to be doing this." But who's to say it's not just "Can we NOT DO THIS. I'm not ready to do this." Again, in To The Last Man, Jack opens up emotionally and essentially, albeit it in a pretty convoluted way, tells Ianto he loves him. Now, again, I, and many others, interpreted that scene as Ianto really not expecting or daring to hope for that much from Jack in the way of emotional involvement and responding rather overenthusiastically, but it could just as easily be read as Ianto NOT WANTING TO GO THERE, and shutting him up by shoving his tongue down his throat.

Now I'm not sure which of these interpretations is more valid, though I'm veering towards this one, having seen Fragments. I DO think Ianto is in love with Jack, and I think he probably has been for a very long time, but the one holding the relationship back because he DOESN'T WANT TO GO THERE, I think may very well be Ianto, and not Jack. Possibly. Maybe? I don't know anymore. I really wish we'd seen The Date. That might have helped.

It's funny, really, if I take Jack/Gwen out of the equation, Jack/Ianto comes across quite differently. I've reached saturation point with the Jack/Gwen thing, and therefore I'm now actively pretending it doesn't and didn't exist. Kind of like what they did with Gwen/Owen. Rethink our canon slash without the gappy toothed distraction, and you get a whole different story. Has my brain just finally given up? Am I thinking about this show WAAYYYY too much?

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From:

rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com

First, you can never think about this way too much. Ianto deserves our thoughts. Keep that in mind at all times. :-)

Second, your thoughts are always fascinating.

What makes analyzing all of this very difficult is that we have to consider so many things outside what we're seeing on screen. Based on writer and actor interviews, I think we know that the intention was to have Jack/Gwen in some fashion. Perhaps it was supposed to be a Doctor/Rose type of dynamic. Or perhaps they were planning to try to actually get Jack/Gwen into a romantic relationship at some point in time in contrast to what they do with the Doctor. Or perhaps it would be something acknowledged between them but unrequited because Jack wants to protect Gwen's 'connection to humanity.' I don't know. But I think the arrival of GDL's Ianto on the scene changed the course of events and we may be stuck right now in S2 in the midst of some type of midcourse correction. I also think you rightly point out that the chemistry of the actors complicates things because it is weird. I don't find Jack/Gwen to have much romantic chemistry other than when they are arguing.

That said, back to the episodes themselves. I think it very much comes off that Jack is attracted to Gwen's humanity. That is what he values about her. I'm also sure that Jack is attracted to her sexually, but I suspect Jack is attracted to a lot of people on a basic sexual level so I discount that as being of importance. I think its fairly clear that that this 'humanity' is something he feels he's lost perhaps because of his 'wrongness' as someone essentially immortal. By SB, I think it's starting to be revealed that Jack may rather be longing for things he thinks he can't have, like a more traditional romantic relationship. Otherwise, I can't make sense of the photo scene. But that scene really transforms things for me from Jack longing for Gwen in particular to Jack longing for the things that a committed relationship like Gwen and Rhys's represent.

Jack reminds me a bit of Buffy in BtVS with a longing for a 'normal' life that he thinks he can't have and struggling to try to define what type of life he can have that will be emotionally satisfying. Jack comes off to me in this series as someone who is looking for meaning in his life beyond just being heroic; he's looking for meaning through personal emotional attachments. He's really in some ways moving beyond the Doctor and looking for emotional satisfaction through specific relationships and not just the general satisfaction of saving humanity. This is set up by Jack both coming to terms with his feelings about the Doctor and the introduction of the Grey storyline so that Jack can start dealing with some of his own underlying emotional issues (related to losing his birth family). Jack is both recreating a family in his own image in this series through the Hubbies as well as grappling with whether he wants a romantic relationship that goes beyond the sexual -- and if so, is there a partner available?

I suspect Jack has discounted Gwen because he feels the need to 'protect' her from himself to some extent because he feels he can't offer her 'normal' in the way that Rhys can. I would say that the show is defining 'normal' as a life outside TW where it's possible to have friends, family, children, and connections to things that don't involve aliens or the world ending. Whether 'normal' is something to be valued and protected is another question entirely but I think it's clear that Jack thinks it is.

In regards to Ianto, I'm starting to wonder if Jack is rather clueless about Ianto's emotions. After all, Jack doesn't remember Ianto's confession in Adam. Jack may well think that Ianto isn't looking for love; he may have interpreted Ianto as looking for security. Jack may compare himself (at least in emotional respects) as inferior to Lisa and not consider himself as anything more than something temporary for Ianto. Jack is, I think, also struggling with whether he wants to commit himself emotionally to anyone who is mortal. He clearly has done so in the past (the photo) but has also shown subsequently that he shies away from it (Estelle, Gwen) perhaps because of the pain involved.

Edited Date: 2008-03-27 01:59 pm (UTC)

From:

tencrush

In regards to Ianto, I'm starting to wonder if Jack is rather clueless about Ianto's emotions. After all, Jack doesn't remember Ianto's confession in Adam.

Very true. I think Jack is pretty clueless about Ianto's emotions, yes. I think my question at the moment is, is Jack clueless about how Ianto feels about him because Ianto is, either consciously and actively, or subconsciously hiding his feelings from Jack?

That's why I say I wish we'd seen The Date. They MUST have talked more than we have seen, and I wish we'd been let in on it. From what I know of the finale, I don't think we're going to get any sort of closure on this relationship and we're going to carry over into S3 with the same questions.

(I just watched Cyberwoman. Good lord, Fragments was a cleverly written retcon for the character weirdness in that episode. Wow.)

From:

rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com

I'm feeling guilty re: long comments in your LJ so I broke my Ianto stuff into a 2nd comment as if that somehow makes me less rude. :-) Jack tells a lot of sexual anecdotes. Ianto perceives Jack's sexual style to be innovative/avant garde. Therefore, Ianto plays the role he thinks Jack wants. Does Ianto want it? Is that connected to his emotional state? Yes, to some extent.

Post-Fragments, I have redefined Ianto as a roleplayer. Since they met, he has been playing various roles (e.g. James Bond, butler, guard dog, stopwatches, hockey sticks) Heck, the entire Ianto that the team knows is a construct. He does this to protect his vulnerable interior (as phrased by GDL). Is this a post-Lisa thing or pure Ianto? But I think Ianto hides to protect himself from emotional hurt consciously & that means keeping Jack in the dark about how Ianto feels and even who he is. It may be easier to Ianto to have sex with Jack and protect himself from revealing things if he's pretending to be someone else.

Jack is a great partner for Ianto because he can't die but he can leave & he can dump Ianto so the protections are still required to keep Jack from getting too close until Ianto is ready (if he ever is ready).

Ianto made an emotional connection to Jack in S1 (coat scene). He is reeling because he realizes he's emotionally connected & DAMN despite his best efforts to cover that base, Jack can die, too! Then suddenly Jack is back & yay, he can't really die after all so it's ok for Ianto to respond to him. But then Jack leaves! So in KKBB, Ianto's weird behavior in the office is IMHO all about Ianto acknowledging to Jack that he can't resume what they had because he can't do sex anymore without some emotion & he's not investing anything in someone who might leave at any moment (because Ianto is deciding if he believes Jack about the Doctor at the same time he has to process who/what John is to Jack). But Ianto is weak, so he needs to really freeze Jack out so that he doesn't get seduced back into the sex. The 'yes, yes' & GDL's change in tone from dismissive to soft doesn't say just 'get the hell out & stop bothering me' but also, 'yes, I do want this date because it means something to me but I don't want you to know all this right now'. He needs something more but it takes a few eps before he will even ASK for it. I don't read TTLM as Ianto shutting Jack up with his tongue. Ianto approaches Jack. When Jack makes a comment about Tommy, Ianto turns the conversation to Jack to get him to elaborate on whether he is going to stay and more importantly whether Jack wants to be there in the first place. It's one thing to stay because you're stuck & another to actually want to be somewhere. And when Jack gives him what he needs to hear, Ianto waits a beat & then tries to extract Jack's tonsils. He doesn't cut Jack off in midsentence or anything that would indicate to me that he wants to cut off Jack's revelations. However, Ianto isn't ready to verbalize his feelings to Jack (he probably feels he's revealed enough by even asking the questions) so he uses his tongue to show that he's ready to move forward.

I spam you with my Jantotheories!!

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