I spam you with my Jantotheories!!

[tencrush]

Right, fine, a few comments I received to my last post made me realise I could be looking at this all wrong. I've always assumed that, at the point we're at now, Jack/Ianto involves LOVE on Ianto's part and none or less on Jack's. Not overtly, anyway. Mainly, I've assumed there's love on Ianto's part because A)Gareth TOLD ME SO, B)the scene in Adam at the table and C)an overall kind of doe-eyed impression Ianto is giving off. Which is cool, I'm cool with that. I've always just assumed though, that if Jack is in love with Ianto, he is so TO A LESSER DEGREE than Ianto is with him. But maybe I'm wrong.

My reasonings that Jack isn't in love with Ianto or to the same extent had a lot to do with this weird Jack/Gwen thing, but I realise now I'm not really sold on the idea that that was Jack BEING IN LOVE WITH Gwen, at all. I think she reminds him of Rose and she embodies something he'd like to be, but I just don't know anything beyond that. I've mentioned before that I find JB has a very confusing on screen chemistry with Eve, and it feels like HE doesn't know from which angle he's supposed to be approaching her half the time, and that's probably half the reason I think Jack's such a fickle bastard. JB's ackting skillz aside, maybe there really isn't that much left to be bothered about. I mean, there hasn't really been anything that's been said or done on screen to imply there's anything going on. (I read something the other day where someone said Gwen was humouring the shape shifter in Something Borrowed because she knew it wasn't Jack all along. That theory kind of sits better with me, because I just can't buy them trying to make her that much of a bitch. It was her WEDDING DAY, ffs.) All we've really seen is some serious personal space invasion in a gun shooting scene, which possibly was just there to illustrate that that's JUST HOW JACK IS, rather than anything more in the way of Jack's feelings towards Gwen. I am actually starting to completely handwave Jack/Gwen as weird acting and ambiguous writing and nothing more.

All of which leaves me with the Jack/Ianto interactions. My major gripe was the NEVER ENDING implications of kink. Funnily enough though, thinking about it, the stopwatch was Ianto's. As was the measuring tape, and the inside leg insinuations. In fact, there's nothing telling us that the kink in their relationship is Jack's idea, far from it, apart from the Unit cap. Jack just always comes across to people as canonically such an omnisexual slut, that I think people have naturally assumed that the fun and games attitude in their sex life, and the kink, is coming from him. I'm starting to believe that's a VERY WRONG assumption. I think Ianto's the kinky bastard. Now that doesn't actually mean anything in the scheme of who's in love with whom, but it does kind of deflate the argument that Jack's just in this thing for kicks if Jack's not the one initiating the kicks. And I'm starting to believe he's not.

As for the actual emotional interaction they've had, well, there was the date thing, and the talk in TTLM. Both of which kind of amounted to the same thing. My take on the date conversation was always a simple one, I wrote it at the time, and I still believe it to be the case now, Ianto's reaction is pretty much "If I say yes will you stop talking to me and go away, you weirdo?" Jack's the one opening himself up and Ianto's the one cutting off with a "Yes, fine, whatever." I interpreted that reaction as one of "Can we not do this NOW, now is a really bad time to be doing this." But who's to say it's not just "Can we NOT DO THIS. I'm not ready to do this." Again, in To The Last Man, Jack opens up emotionally and essentially, albeit it in a pretty convoluted way, tells Ianto he loves him. Now, again, I, and many others, interpreted that scene as Ianto really not expecting or daring to hope for that much from Jack in the way of emotional involvement and responding rather overenthusiastically, but it could just as easily be read as Ianto NOT WANTING TO GO THERE, and shutting him up by shoving his tongue down his throat.

Now I'm not sure which of these interpretations is more valid, though I'm veering towards this one, having seen Fragments. I DO think Ianto is in love with Jack, and I think he probably has been for a very long time, but the one holding the relationship back because he DOESN'T WANT TO GO THERE, I think may very well be Ianto, and not Jack. Possibly. Maybe? I don't know anymore. I really wish we'd seen The Date. That might have helped.

It's funny, really, if I take Jack/Gwen out of the equation, Jack/Ianto comes across quite differently. I've reached saturation point with the Jack/Gwen thing, and therefore I'm now actively pretending it doesn't and didn't exist. Kind of like what they did with Gwen/Owen. Rethink our canon slash without the gappy toothed distraction, and you get a whole different story. Has my brain just finally given up? Am I thinking about this show WAAYYYY too much?

Comments

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

First, you can never think about this way too much. Ianto deserves our thoughts. Keep that in mind at all times. :-)

Second, your thoughts are always fascinating.

What makes analyzing all of this very difficult is that we have to consider so many things outside what we're seeing on screen. Based on writer and actor interviews, I think we know that the intention was to have Jack/Gwen in some fashion. Perhaps it was supposed to be a Doctor/Rose type of dynamic. Or perhaps they were planning to try to actually get Jack/Gwen into a romantic relationship at some point in time in contrast to what they do with the Doctor. Or perhaps it would be something acknowledged between them but unrequited because Jack wants to protect Gwen's 'connection to humanity.' I don't know. But I think the arrival of GDL's Ianto on the scene changed the course of events and we may be stuck right now in S2 in the midst of some type of midcourse correction. I also think you rightly point out that the chemistry of the actors complicates things because it is weird. I don't find Jack/Gwen to have much romantic chemistry other than when they are arguing.

That said, back to the episodes themselves. I think it very much comes off that Jack is attracted to Gwen's humanity. That is what he values about her. I'm also sure that Jack is attracted to her sexually, but I suspect Jack is attracted to a lot of people on a basic sexual level so I discount that as being of importance. I think its fairly clear that that this 'humanity' is something he feels he's lost perhaps because of his 'wrongness' as someone essentially immortal. By SB, I think it's starting to be revealed that Jack may rather be longing for things he thinks he can't have, like a more traditional romantic relationship. Otherwise, I can't make sense of the photo scene. But that scene really transforms things for me from Jack longing for Gwen in particular to Jack longing for the things that a committed relationship like Gwen and Rhys's represent.

Jack reminds me a bit of Buffy in BtVS with a longing for a 'normal' life that he thinks he can't have and struggling to try to define what type of life he can have that will be emotionally satisfying. Jack comes off to me in this series as someone who is looking for meaning in his life beyond just being heroic; he's looking for meaning through personal emotional attachments. He's really in some ways moving beyond the Doctor and looking for emotional satisfaction through specific relationships and not just the general satisfaction of saving humanity. This is set up by Jack both coming to terms with his feelings about the Doctor and the introduction of the Grey storyline so that Jack can start dealing with some of his own underlying emotional issues (related to losing his birth family). Jack is both recreating a family in his own image in this series through the Hubbies as well as grappling with whether he wants a romantic relationship that goes beyond the sexual -- and if so, is there a partner available?

I suspect Jack has discounted Gwen because he feels the need to 'protect' her from himself to some extent because he feels he can't offer her 'normal' in the way that Rhys can. I would say that the show is defining 'normal' as a life outside TW where it's possible to have friends, family, children, and connections to things that don't involve aliens or the world ending. Whether 'normal' is something to be valued and protected is another question entirely but I think it's clear that Jack thinks it is.

In regards to Ianto, I'm starting to wonder if Jack is rather clueless about Ianto's emotions. After all, Jack doesn't remember Ianto's confession in Adam. Jack may well think that Ianto isn't looking for love; he may have interpreted Ianto as looking for security. Jack may compare himself (at least in emotional respects) as inferior to Lisa and not consider himself as anything more than something temporary for Ianto. Jack is, I think, also struggling with whether he wants to commit himself emotionally to anyone who is mortal. He clearly has done so in the past (the photo) but has also shown subsequently that he shies away from it (Estelle, Gwen) perhaps because of the pain involved.

[tencrush]

In regards to Ianto, I'm starting to wonder if Jack is rather clueless about Ianto's emotions. After all, Jack doesn't remember Ianto's confession in Adam.

Very true. I think Jack is pretty clueless about Ianto's emotions, yes. I think my question at the moment is, is Jack clueless about how Ianto feels about him because Ianto is, either consciously and actively, or subconsciously hiding his feelings from Jack?

That's why I say I wish we'd seen The Date. They MUST have talked more than we have seen, and I wish we'd been let in on it. From what I know of the finale, I don't think we're going to get any sort of closure on this relationship and we're going to carry over into S3 with the same questions.

(I just watched Cyberwoman. Good lord, Fragments was a cleverly written retcon for the character weirdness in that episode. Wow.)

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

I'm feeling guilty re: long comments in your LJ so I broke my Ianto stuff into a 2nd comment as if that somehow makes me less rude. :-) Jack tells a lot of sexual anecdotes. Ianto perceives Jack's sexual style to be innovative/avant garde. Therefore, Ianto plays the role he thinks Jack wants. Does Ianto want it? Is that connected to his emotional state? Yes, to some extent.

Post-Fragments, I have redefined Ianto as a roleplayer. Since they met, he has been playing various roles (e.g. James Bond, butler, guard dog, stopwatches, hockey sticks) Heck, the entire Ianto that the team knows is a construct. He does this to protect his vulnerable interior (as phrased by GDL). Is this a post-Lisa thing or pure Ianto? But I think Ianto hides to protect himself from emotional hurt consciously & that means keeping Jack in the dark about how Ianto feels and even who he is. It may be easier to Ianto to have sex with Jack and protect himself from revealing things if he's pretending to be someone else.

Jack is a great partner for Ianto because he can't die but he can leave & he can dump Ianto so the protections are still required to keep Jack from getting too close until Ianto is ready (if he ever is ready).

Ianto made an emotional connection to Jack in S1 (coat scene). He is reeling because he realizes he's emotionally connected & DAMN despite his best efforts to cover that base, Jack can die, too! Then suddenly Jack is back & yay, he can't really die after all so it's ok for Ianto to respond to him. But then Jack leaves! So in KKBB, Ianto's weird behavior in the office is IMHO all about Ianto acknowledging to Jack that he can't resume what they had because he can't do sex anymore without some emotion & he's not investing anything in someone who might leave at any moment (because Ianto is deciding if he believes Jack about the Doctor at the same time he has to process who/what John is to Jack). But Ianto is weak, so he needs to really freeze Jack out so that he doesn't get seduced back into the sex. The 'yes, yes' & GDL's change in tone from dismissive to soft doesn't say just 'get the hell out & stop bothering me' but also, 'yes, I do want this date because it means something to me but I don't want you to know all this right now'. He needs something more but it takes a few eps before he will even ASK for it. I don't read TTLM as Ianto shutting Jack up with his tongue. Ianto approaches Jack. When Jack makes a comment about Tommy, Ianto turns the conversation to Jack to get him to elaborate on whether he is going to stay and more importantly whether Jack wants to be there in the first place. It's one thing to stay because you're stuck & another to actually want to be somewhere. And when Jack gives him what he needs to hear, Ianto waits a beat & then tries to extract Jack's tonsils. He doesn't cut Jack off in midsentence or anything that would indicate to me that he wants to cut off Jack's revelations. However, Ianto isn't ready to verbalize his feelings to Jack (he probably feels he's revealed enough by even asking the questions) so he uses his tongue to show that he's ready to move forward.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

Then over the course of the next episodes, Ianto takes baby steps towards showing Jack little bits of his real self. He acknowledges to Martha that they're together (the change in tone from the 'dabbling' to the 'yes' which indicates please stop asking because I'm only willing to tell you what Jack's like in bed not how I define our relationship and what it means to me). He gets angry with Owen for implying he means nothing to Jack beyond a warm body to screw. He dances with Jack in public & he's even willing to interrupt Gwen and Jack's dance to do it! Jack gives a bit of an eyeroll that indicates he knows when someone is pissing on him in public. When has Ianto shown he is possessive about anything other than the coffee machine & the SUV??? He lets Jack see him being vulnerable about the Night Travelers. He dares to defy Jack in Adrift surely knowing that Gwen will screw up & Jack will find out. Ianto is like a turtle, sticking his head out slowly from outside the shell and checking for danger before extending his neck a bit more. Yes, Ianto is hiding from Jack...or rather, Ianto has always hidden from Jack & Ianto is in the process of revealing himself to Jack, all the while checking very carefully to ensure that he isn't going to get really hurt before he continues with peeling back the next layer of the onion.

But I agree that we are left rather clueless as to what Jack knows about what Ianto feels and I agree with you that I don't see anything in the finale likely to provide that closure and now we're going to have all this hanging over into S3.

If I was certain this is a love story, I'd be pretty ecstatic about it. But I have no trust in the writers and now we're having a major change in showrunner on top of that plus new characters.

And now I must shut up because I feel really, really rude about babbling on so much.

[tencrush]

Yeah, I was being a bit flippant saying he was shoving his tongue down his throat to shut him up, but you understand what I mean. I mean that was the end of the conversation part of things because Ianto is not prepared at that point in time to give any more of himself away than he already has by asking the questions. Exactly what you're saying, yeah.

I very much agree, even before all the revelations about Ianto's character and backstory, I thought he was very much a roleplayer, I've always thought that really purely based on the suit, for a start. It's not the most appropriate attire for the damp icky Hub surroundings, but Ianto is very much the sort of person who dresses for work, puts on a mask and slips into a persona depending on the circumstances. I think it makes him EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE when he DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE. He likes to be assigned a role and a purpose, I think even a part of his deperation in Fragments, especially in the second meeting, was based on that, and nothing to do with Lisa at all. It's one of the reasons that makes me think Ianto (who I just basically think is a kinky bastard anyway, regardless) is the one initiating all the sex games, because I think, like you say he perceives Jack as being avant-garde, and possibly also easily bored and distracted by shiny things, so he plays the part he thinks will get the best results when it comes to keeping Jack's interest.

I still have no idea how serious Jack is, though. I could look at it this way and it would make sense to me, and I'd say, yeah, Jack loves him, or I could throw in all those arguments I've rehashed tons of times and say Jack just wants sex. I REALLY DON'T KNOW ANYMORE.

[wicca-faith-fi.livejournal.com]

i enjoyed reading this it was very interesting and i realised that about the kinks recently too!
I too always assumed that Ianto loved Jack more than the other way around.
My current theory (heavily influenced by fanfiction probably) is that Jack is in a relationship because he's holding onto this life after the whole 3x11/12/13 thing in Doctor Who. Ianto isn't just convenient though because he could have had Gwen if he wanted her (i still have issues with that scene in 2x01 with Gwen-Jack-and the engagement ring and the fact Jack asked Ianto out afterwards I keep trying to convince myself to think rationally about it but... nvm.) So I think Jack needs Ianto to be his lover/partner his hold on life, his anchor when things go bad and after all Ianto has proven he can be that. I think Ianto is experimenting a little bit because like GDL i believe this is his first proper relationship with a man. But I also believe Ianto loves Jack.
um... sorry for ranting on at you!

[tencrush]

But I agree that we are left rather clueless as to what Jack knows about what Ianto feels and I agree with you that I don't see anything in the finale likely to provide that closure and now we're going to have all this hanging over into S3.

If I was certain this is a love story, I'd be pretty ecstatic about it. But I have no trust in the writers and now we're having a major change in showrunner on top of that plus new characters.

This is what is worrying me SO MUCH. I really figured the relationship would be over or clear by this point, and it's not. Grrr. There's no telling what might happen now. (Who's taking over the show? Do I know and have I conveniently forgotten?)

[tencrush]

By all means, rant away, that's what I post and pimp my postings for, I want to know what other people think. I never really thought about the kinks before even though should have been really kind of blatantly obvious, especially as I've never been a huge believer in the woobie/subby/bottomy Ianto that many people always seemed to be seeing.

But yeah, I think Ianto is being a lot more reluctant in this relationship than I maybe previously thought, I too think this is his first same sex relationship, and it wasn't really until the coming out dance scene at the wedding that I really realised how slowly Ianto is taking it, and how slowly Jack is letting him take it. I just wish Jack wouldn't have made puppy eyes at Gwen while he was letting Ianto take it slowly. It comes across as if Jack, meanwhile, is hedging his bets. It's kind of yucky.

[rojodiablo.livejournal.com]

If I was certain this is a love story, I'd be pretty ecstatic about it. But I have no trust in the writers and now we're having a major change in showrunner on top of that plus new characters.

That's what I'm panicking about too. A life without Jack/Ianto is one barely worth living.

If, perhaps, the writers read this sort of community (as I know at least 1 member of the cast does) they will see just how enthused the world is about Jack/Ianto and our constant searching for answers. They might even get so fed up with our ruminations and contemplations that they give us SOMETHING solid to grapple on to.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was being a bit flippant saying he was shoving his tongue down his throat to shut him up, but you understand what I mean.

Oh yes, certainly. I was just using that as shorthand to mean Ianto trying to avoid talking per that lovely post fodian made about Janto in the early seasons episodes. Talking is hard, sex is easy. But I don't really think it's just sex at that point, it's Ianto committing to a relationship (however they define that term but ground rules having been established in KKBB that it's not going to be a sekrit office sex fling). But I do think that the conversation is done from Ianto's POV because it is all about Jack's feelings and not about his. But is it just because Ianto doesn't want to reveal his feelings or because Ianto thinks his feelings are obvious? Oh Ianto, will I ever plumb your mysteries?

It's one of the reasons that makes me think Ianto (who I just basically think is a kinky bastard anyway, regardless) is the one initiating all the sex games, because I think, like you say he perceives Jack as being avant-garde, and possibly also easily bored and distracted by shiny things, so he plays the part he thinks will get the best results when it comes to keeping Jack's interest.

Is what they are doing that kinky? The hockey sticks, the naked hide/seek, the UNIT cap...none of these seem that kinky to me. I would say that jumper cables do scream kinky, though. Or is this relatively mild stuff TV shorthand for something more avant garde? Should I be imagining something much wilder? Inquiring minds want to know. :-)

I read a fanfic recently where Ianto goes off by himself to try to figure out how to 'manage' himself upon realizing that he wants 'more' from Jack but he discounts the idea that Jack could want 'more' from him. Jack basically confronts Ianto with 'doing the same thing he did with Lisa' by trying to solve a problem all by himself when he should be asking Jack the right questions so that they can solve it together. I think that might be a very interesting insight into Ianto's psyche.

Is this kinkiness something that you think Ianto discovered about himself by being with Jack or is this something you think he expressed with Lisa as well? I tend to think of Ianto/Lisa as some sort of very fairytale sort of first love, I must admit (despite zero evidence).

They do really need to clue us in about Jack's feelings. I'm really pissed off that the series is ending without that. My love for Fragments has only temporarily distracted me from my anger. And by the return in S3, Jack will have been through so much that he won't be the same Jack so that will add a whole other layer to all of this. Grr. I'm also a tad worried that the writers have become so enamored of JM that Captain John is going to be an ever-present disruption to anything really getting resolved regarding Jack/Ianto because of the temptation to maintain some sexual tension between Jack/John. Although I have to say that unlike most others, I didn't get much sexual chemistry from the Jack/John scenes compared to Jack/Ianto.

[tencrush]

Yeah, Ok, sorry, I said this ages ago when the stopwatch appeared, I've always just more or less assumed that the stopwatch, and now the hockey stick, tape measure, UNIT cap, whatever, is family-friendly BBC CODE for SICK DISGUSTING FILTH. The kind I'm quite fond of. I have no proof of this, but it's a theory I subscribe to, much like my good friend off_coloratura said that Jack flashing his pants at Gwen and not doing his trousers up was the BBC equivalent of him waving his cock in her fayce.

I like to think Ianto is kinky in and of himself. I have no basis for this other than the fact that it makes me happy in my pants, and God knows my pants need cheering up every now and then, I have two children and therefore generally spend my time in bed ASLEEP.

I didn't think there was huge sexual chemistry between Jack and John either. I thought there was more between John and Ianto, to be honest.

[off_coloratura]

To be fair, they write Ianto as an awful woobie when it comes to combat. He has been singled out for hurt and hostage-taking by villains more than anyone else. Just off the top of my head, Cyberwoman, Countrycide, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Meat, Adam, From Out Of The Rain. Owen gets picked on a lot too, but he bitches about it, so he's not the woobie.

[tencrush]

He was the only one NOT to get taken hostage in KKBB, madam. But yes, you're right, he is the w00b, it's a wonder they let him out of the Hub.

Also, he cries a lot.

[tencrush]

They totally read my spec last year that Ianto was sucking Jack's cock to distract him from the Cyberchick. I should sue.

They never will. Leave them wanting more, you know? Bastard show.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'If I was certain this is a love story, I'd be pretty ecstatic about it. But I have no trust in the writers and now we're having a major change in showrunner on top of that plus new characters.'
Oh, that has me very worried. I hope they don't just drop it like they did with Gwen/Owen.

...plus new characters.
Does that mean that the rumor I heard about most of the cast leaving the show is true.

[tencrush]

If you're unspoiled, I'd stay that way. But yes.

[off_coloratura]

He didn't get taken hostage, but he sure as hell got a nice little eyerape and mindfuck from John.Obviously, they let him out of the Hub just so he CAN be threatened, so the audience goes OH NOES and give a fuck about what's going on. Just like Gwen's job is to wander into deserted places and get freaked out by spooky things.

[tencrush]

And make collages.

[off_coloratura]

She really outdid herself in Adrift. That was the mother of all collages. I think for an encore she should paper the entire Hub.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Am I thinking about this show WAAYYYY too much?'
I don't think that's possible.

'I am actually starting to completely handwave Jack/Gwen as weird acting and ambiguous writing and nothing more.'
Handwaving is good. It's always seemed very strange to me; all of the Jack/Gwen scenes seemed very shoehorned in. Where did that '...because no one else will have me' scene come from? I've never really seen any sort of sexual chemistry between those two characters (I do think they have great platonic chemistry). Sometimes, I really got the feeling that John didn't know *how* to play those scenes. Possibly due to a combination of bad directing and inconsistent writing- in one episode you would have Jack and Gwen, and the next it would be Jack/Gwen.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

That's just a supposition of mine based on rumors. I should have said, 'potentially new characters.' Sorry -- I didn't mean to scare people.

There is spoilage for the finale on various boards including Television Without Pity if you're interested in it.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'If you're unspoiled, I'd stay that way. But yes.'
Thanks. I don't mind being spoiled, I just don't go looking.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'That's just a supposition of mine based on rumors. I should have said, 'potentially new characters.' Sorry -- I didn't mean to scare people.'

Not scared, just concerned.

There's a rumor floating around that the entire cast (except for Eve) are leaving the show, and that Jack will only have a recurring role in Series 3. (How would that work; it's suppose to be his show.) And that the format is changing to kid friendly. Keep in mind that it was started by someone who has a history of making things up, and it's one thing to make a few changes, but to completely change the cast AND the format...

[qthewetsprocket.livejournal.com]

Owen gets picked on a lot too, but he bitches about it, so he's not the woobie.

*falls about laughing*

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I didn't get much sexual chemistry from the Jack/John scenes compared to Jack/Ianto.'
Glad to see I'm not the only one.

'I'm also a tad worried that the writers have become so enamored of JM that Captain John is going to be an ever-present disruption to anything really getting resolved regarding Jack/Ianto because of the temptation to maintain some sexual tension between Jack/John.'

Oh, I completely forgot that Captain John was coming back for Series 3. Why can't the writers give us something, anything. I just hope we get some good John/Ianto scenes out of it.