Really, though...
Jan. 5th, 2010 11:40 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
That Colin guy from Merlin is one of the fugliest people on the telly at the mo. That's not a subjective opinion on my part, that's like scientific fact or something. He's one of the two reasons I don't watch Merlin, the other one being that it's about fucking wizards. See also: more fucking wizards (Harry Potter), fucking trolls (Lord of the Rings) and fucking blue fairy people (Avatar). Do not be telling me I should be watching any of this shit, I cannot take it seriously.
I voted Neil Patrick Harris in the Big Gay Battle on After Elton. John Barrowman is just too gay to be allowed to win these sorts of things. I'm joking, of course (not about voting, I did vote NPH), there's no such thing as TOO GAY, but if there were, I'm pretty sure JB would qualify. But no, I purposefully voted against JB. For reasons I explained like a year and a half ago, I don't think he's the greatest candidate for big gay role model. Neither is NPH, probably (Man, he only came out like 3 years ago, dudes, really? Weird, I thought it was longer ago.), but there you go.
I voted Neil Patrick Harris in the Big Gay Battle on After Elton. John Barrowman is just too gay to be allowed to win these sorts of things. I'm joking, of course (not about voting, I did vote NPH), there's no such thing as TOO GAY, but if there were, I'm pretty sure JB would qualify. But no, I purposefully voted against JB. For reasons I explained like a year and a half ago, I don't think he's the greatest candidate for big gay role model. Neither is NPH, probably (Man, he only came out like 3 years ago, dudes, really? Weird, I thought it was longer ago.), but there you go.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-05 11:41 pm (UTC)Whether killing Ianto or not is homophobic is an entirely different debate and one I don't really have a solid opinion on, but many people saw the scene with Johnny as an acknowledgment that homophobia exists and it's not okay, including gay people (for reference, I'm politically queer and asexual in practice - if I had an interest in sex, it would be with women). I honestly would have been upset if they'd had no real reaction from outsiders to Ianto and Jack's relationship, so I really liked Johnny and Andy's reactions. There is almost nothing that's universally offensive to all people of a minority.
Also, it would be incredibly stupid of JB's handlers to let him say publically "I wanted this line out but Russell left it in, but I don't like it." He has to tow the party line, no matter how famous he is. That's part of being an actor.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 12:27 am (UTC)As for Johnny, I didn't have a problem with his teasing of Ianto. I didn't appreciate him being more worried about his car than his dead brother-in-law while he was comforting his wife. But then again, maybe these endearing character moments are just lost on me.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 01:11 am (UTC)I respect your opinion and I know that there are a variety of views on this. But in the end, I have to give strongest weight to how it struck me and my circle of friends. I'm not sure what politically queer means, but since you state it as such, I am going to assume that you don't identify yourself as male gay to the world at large. (If I am incorrect in this assumption, my sincere apologies).
That is not to say that people of any minority status can't misunderstand something but ultimately the group has a right to say that something is offensive. Maybe it wasn't meant that way, but that's the way it came across to many people gay and straight. Of my 11 gay male friends, only one would agree with your interpretation of the Johnny and Andy lines. This doesn't mean that you are wrong, but it does say that given the sensitivity of this issue that the writers and producers should have been very careful to make sure that the intent of these comments was clearly understood. And if it was misunderstood then it needed to be explained.
As for JB, I totally understand your point. I wasn't expecting him to say what you suggested, but perhaps something along the lines of that he didn't believe the writers were intentionally being insensitive, explaining what they were trying to depict (assuming your interpretation or similar is correct) and that he was sorry if it was perceived this way.
Actually that's what RTD should have said, but I think JB could have said that without pissing off anyone.
Sitting silently while your own community feels insulted and maligned are not the qualities of the Gay Man of the Decade, IMHO. So, no I don't think JB is a horrible, evil, person, just not worthy of the title.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 01:34 am (UTC)Personal identification - I'm female, I normally identify as asexual but in situations where I don't feel like explaining that 'yes, it is possible to not be interested in sex, really, I'm not doing it wrong, I don't need you to show me how, please leave me alone', I identify as lesbian. I have no attraction to men whatsoever. Gay men and gay women do face quite different kinds of discrimination, but also some quite similar ones.
I suspect my comment overall had different implications than I meant - I totally agree with anyone's right to be offended by things, I just wanted to point out that in some cases the offensive thing is quite a grey area. There are certain things that are just out and out offensive and you'd have to be pretty uninvolved to argue otherwise, and others where it's all subtext and inference and personal experience and whether you're personally offended or not are equally valid, and in those cases I do, personally, find it difficult to.... not condemn, that's too strong a word for what I mean, but maybe to think less of people involved for not addressing the concerns of those who are offended - of course it would be best if they did, absolutely, but JB in particular has never exactly been known as a paragon of tact and social politics about anything, let alone LGBT issues, which can be considered part of his charm. (The same can be said about RTD, but in his case it's rather not part of his charm.)
I think most people can agree that there's a lot of batshit in this fandom so it can be hard to figure out who has really extreme views and who is open to reasonable discussion and compromise. :P
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 02:26 am (UTC)And as several others have said the Andy thing was more of a WTF moment. Why would this be important to telling Rhiannon that her brother had died? Now if he asked whether his sister knew that he worked for TW, that would have made some sense. It was so out of place that its easy to assume a negative sub-text running through it.
I appreciate your candor about your own personal identification. This does help me to understand where you are coming from. Being an 'other' regardless of what kind in an other-unfriendly world is not easy.
You are right on the money about JB and RTD and tact or lack thereof, LOL.
US LBGT's (and their friends and families) are under political attack here in the US. It's truly frightening. So perhaps this explains why something that is in that gray area (for the sake of argument) would be so hurtful. When you are already being treated as sub-human, deviant and criminal by many, you hope at least prominent members of your own community won't be seen as helping the enemy.
Bat-shit crazy - yeah, about that. I take no extreme views. Don't want Ianto's back, not mailing coffee to anyone. The reason I'm opposed to Gwack is not because I only want J/I pairing - its because I think Rhys is the real catch and I don't want Gwen to lose this or to have him killed off as well. I read bastard!Jack fics and domestic Janto fics, its all good (except MPREG which I just can't deal with) as long as its well written and makes sense in the context in which its written.
I only go bat-shit crazy when 'serious' stories by 'professional' writers don't hold together, where characters don't act consistently episode to episode let alone between series, when its boring or derivative or just over the top. Uh, like The last two years of DW and a fair amount of TW.
I appreciate your comments - you've given me much to think about.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 08:36 am (UTC)Let's go first with the PC Andy comment on day 5. It put me in mind of a docu-drama(?) I'd seen about Alan Turing. In it, he's having problems with the police because he's gay and he says, basically, that he thought what he did during the war was the most important thing he'd done in his life, but he could now see that he was wrong: It was what he'd done in bed that was apparently most important. I think that's the message of day 5: It's doesn't matter as much what Ianto (or, by extension, LGBT people) accomplishes in his life because the biggest thing others will be concerned with is his (their) sexuality. Ianto helped to save the world. Why talk about that when hey, we can speculate about whether he was gay! A lovely coda to a lovely story, isn't it? [/sarcasm]
Another thing I wanted to comment on was about showing homophobia on TV being homophobic. Aviv_b, I've said similar things on AfterElton to what you quoted. However, I also understand (and agree in principle with) PhaetonsChariot's objection to my implying that it's wrong to show homophobia on TV. I do think CoE's anti-GLBT issues were offensive, though. One reason is that Torchwood does not take place in our universe, where such attitudes exist, but in the Whoniverse as I have heard it called. RTD has worked to portray it, in Doctor Who and Torchwood prior to CoE, as a very tolerant world [examples on request]. All of a sudden in CoE the universe wasn't tolerant! It was such a departure from its norm that it felt like showing the homophobia in this case was being homophobic.
Another reason ties in with the harm that is possibly done when RTD says the show is not homophobic and JB stays quiet. Specifically, it makes CoE's hurtful, wrong generalizations (such as, say, gays recruit partners from the straight population) seem more true. If the points were wrong, RTD, who makes a point of highlighting that he is a gay man, would say so, right? Maybe even JB, the out and otherwise quite talkative gay lead actor would say so (even in an oblique way, like "showing these attitudes doesn't condone them; it show the wrongness, the evil, bleak, corruption of the world that the 456 came to." without, of course, mentioning that it is totally, inexplicably different from the world the show previously inhabited.) I'm afraid their statements (or lack of them) reinforce the opinions the majority of folks in the US apparently have, when they deny equal rights to LGBT people. So, again, in this case, showing CoE's homophobia felt ... homophobic.
Sorry this was so long! It started out because I wanted to chime in on day 5, and as I read more, it grew. It was a good thoughtful conversation to read, and I hope I've added to it.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 09:11 am (UTC)Aviv said that part of the offensiveness may be a geographical thing and I definitely agree with that - where I live, we have "everything but name" civil unions and openly gay and transgender politicians. There is still prejudice and will be for quite a long time, probably, but on the whole it seems to be far safer to be gay here than it is in America. I have faced some bullying, etc, as well as the more common casual comments and ignorance and such, but I've never really felt unsafe because of my sexuality, which provides a huge difference in perspective. I've also been trained in literature and the exploration of themes so I'm possibly more likely to look at something from that viewpoint because it's what I often do in my own writing as well.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 02:37 pm (UTC)(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 07:25 pm (UTC)Further reinforced by the revelation that every piece of information about his background we had was made up.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 08:17 pm (UTC)(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 08:31 pm (UTC)(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 03:24 pm (UTC)I thought it was a warm-hearted look at a Jewish family/neighborhood almost identical to where I grew up (especially the Hebrew school and the different styles of Rabbis).
My older friend thought it was appalling - making fun of the Jewish community, showing it in a bad light. My younger friend thought the whole thing was silly.
And we all agree on why we felt the way we did. Older friend's father is a Holocaust survivor and grew up in a small town and experience a lot of anti-semitism growing up. Much like my parents, she believes that Jews 'shouldn't wash their dirty laundry in public.' And she is constantly viewing the world through her father's experience.
I grew up in a suburb that was 50% Jewish -the public schools closed on the Jewish holidays because not enough kids came to school. I experienced almost no prejudice growing up, but even though I've a had a few unpleasant experiences as an adult, I don't feel at all insecure about my place in America. But I do work hard with groups that support minority civil rights (gays, blacks, immigrants) because I'm worried that we are starting on a trend toward taking people's rights away.
My younger friend's view is "antisemitism, what antisemitism?" She also is very involved with minority rights issues but from the perspective of making sure other groups get the freedoms that Jews have.
So yes, age and geography make for my group, but for gays who are still being openly targeted by ministers, politicians, skinheads, etc, the opinion about CoE spanned all age groups. My dream is to wake up in ten years and hear a 20 member of the GLBT community say, 'gaybashing, what gaybashing.' Sigh, yeah I know, but its a dream.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 06:35 pm (UTC)To be fair, RTD has only commented, as far as I know, about whether Ianto's death was homophobic (answer: no) and whether he was pressured to de-gay Torchwood (answer: ambiguous). I don't know whether he was ever asked about issues in CoE other than Ianto's death.
I wasn't at ComicCon, but I heard he said things similar to what he said in this interview on AfterElton (http://www.afterelton.com/TV/2009/7/russeltdavies?page=0,3) when he was asked about Ianto's death being yet another dead queer. He said it wasn't, but that "...please don’t get on your high horse about Ianto Jones, for f*ck’s sake, who is fictional. Go do some good work in the real world where you can actually save some people’s lives." Right: Don't bother you about CoE and the death of a character in a same-sex relationship, because we can't both complain about your show and work for equal rights in the real world. Gotcha. And after all, TV is not at all influential to how people view the world...
Another was whether he felt pressured (http://www.thepostgameshow.com/?cat=185) to de-gay Torchwood. He said, "I think you can forget about people picking up gay rights as an issue. It’s rather like children picking up nursery blocks and waving them in the air but having no idea what it entails. We’re talking about issues in my entire life here, not just one small television program..." It doesn't answer yes or no, but does let you know that (1) Russell thinks that even if he is being homophobic, people won't care enough to make a lot of noise, and (2) he is, as they say, "the only gay in the village" and the rest of us (independent of sexual orientation, apparently) simply cannot understand well enough to even be able to reasonably question him about such things!
The sad thing is, he's right about (1), it seems. CoE is being lauded left and right as great drama. People don't seem to care about the homophobia (or notice it in some cases, maybe since it's so ingrained in our society?). I guess I'm out of step.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 06:36 pm (UTC)(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 07:27 pm (UTC)(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 08:14 pm (UTC)RTD's statement about Ianto is a straw man arguement as you point out. As if caring about one thing precludes caring about something else. Pretty common retort when people don't have a logical comeback to a charge or statement. Used by children, the not very bright and by folks who really care about nothing. A grade school debate team knows better than to use that type of argument.
And I guess all my male gay friends are just children with nursury blocks (or are they hysterical womenz, I get sooo confused). Again, its a playground taunt, not really becoming of a theoretical adult. Note I say theoretical.
Wealth and priviledge has provided RTD with protection. He knows nothing about what the life of a not famous gay person is like (especially in the US). But considering he's living in the California where the voters repealed a court's decision to allow gay marriage he might just get on the clue train.
And for me, maybe that's the crux of it. I try (don't always succeed) to see other people's points of view and respect those who I don't agree with...on big issues like human rights or immigration as well as little issues (should Jack hook up with Gwen).
RTD apparently has no respect for anyone who isn't in 100% agreement with his genius. He's dismissive, insulting and juvenille. Needless to say, I won't be voting for him as gay man of the decade either, LOL.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 08:34 pm (UTC)To be honest I don't think Ianto was killed off because he was "queer" despite them laying it on a bit thick. I just think RTD ran out of people to kill after the quick succession demises of Tosh and Owen. He couldn't kill off Jack and he was never going to kill off Gwen.Plus while he may have had bit of a thing for GDL I don't think he felt much investment in his character so he was easily expendable.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 07:25 pm (UTC)However I do think that the Clem thing was a bit dodgy, and personally I was horrified by the Andy scene, it really was unnecessary. I think the scene with Ianto's family was probably OK as it was very realistic, but then they went on and rubbed it in too much.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 07:34 pm (UTC)And yeah I agree that Johnny isn't actively homophobic - it's more an example of the casual, often ignorance-based prejudice that just sort of seeps in, where you don't really mean any harm, you just haven't necessarily thought about it. Particularly since they do have that family relationship and it's often taken for granted that when you're connected to someone in that way you can say shit and they won't get too upset about it. I think Ianto's reaction was actually partly that Rhiannon had just said she wouldn't tell anyone and a little bit "why do you assume I'm the girl?", particularly because it's highly likely that they switch it up.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 07:53 pm (UTC)The Clem bit and the Andy bit were inexcusable I thought, and it did start to feel like they were really wanting to have Ianto as the "queer" character, and they did really leave Jack out of that as well, it was all very odd and one of the many things I dislike about CoE
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 08:31 pm (UTC)Yes, I would really like to know why they felt the need to go this way with Ianto's character (and then proceed to do it poorly IMO). Like he had nothing else to contribute? And why Jack was immune even though it takes two to tango... (I guess Clem was too busy being scared of "the man" to notice the eau de Ianto on him...or maybe the cement bath helped A LOT. Ugh.)
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 08:34 pm (UTC)/cynical and not entirely serious
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2010-01-06 08:36 pm (UTC):( An explanation would've been nice. It seems they changed a lot of stuff with regards to Jack and Ianto. Too bad they left the stuff in that made Ianto seem nothing more than a plot device or a symbol of something they couldn't bother to really expound upon. I really thought there were going to be three main characters in Torchwood: Children of Earth. Silly me.
For all the time they had to work on this script and with the writers supposedly working together, you would think some things that made it into the shooting script would've made more sense.