Really, though...

[tencrush]

That Colin guy from Merlin is one of the fugliest people on the telly at the mo. That's not a subjective opinion on my part, that's like scientific fact or something. He's one of the two reasons I don't watch Merlin, the other one being that it's about fucking wizards. See also: more fucking wizards (Harry Potter), fucking trolls (Lord of the Rings) and fucking blue fairy people (Avatar). Do not be telling me I should be watching any of this shit, I cannot take it seriously.

I voted Neil Patrick Harris in the Big Gay Battle on After Elton. John Barrowman is just too gay to be allowed to win these sorts of things. I'm joking, of course (not about voting, I did vote NPH), there's no such thing as TOO GAY, but if there were, I'm pretty sure JB would qualify. But no, I purposefully voted against JB. For reasons I explained like a year and a half ago, I don't think he's the greatest candidate for big gay role model. Neither is NPH, probably (Man, he only came out like 3 years ago, dudes, really? Weird, I thought it was longer ago.), but there you go.

Comments

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[(Anonymous)]

Hi! I couldn't decide whether to reply to you or aviv_b, but I decided to reply to your reply because you both said interesting things I'd like to comment on... the only problem now is where to start! :-)

Let's go first with the PC Andy comment on day 5. It put me in mind of a docu-drama(?) I'd seen about Alan Turing. In it, he's having problems with the police because he's gay and he says, basically, that he thought what he did during the war was the most important thing he'd done in his life, but he could now see that he was wrong: It was what he'd done in bed that was apparently most important. I think that's the message of day 5: It's doesn't matter as much what Ianto (or, by extension, LGBT people) accomplishes in his life because the biggest thing others will be concerned with is his (their) sexuality. Ianto helped to save the world. Why talk about that when hey, we can speculate about whether he was gay! A lovely coda to a lovely story, isn't it? [/sarcasm]

Another thing I wanted to comment on was about showing homophobia on TV being homophobic. Aviv_b, I've said similar things on AfterElton to what you quoted. However, I also understand (and agree in principle with) PhaetonsChariot's objection to my implying that it's wrong to show homophobia on TV. I do think CoE's anti-GLBT issues were offensive, though. One reason is that Torchwood does not take place in our universe, where such attitudes exist, but in the Whoniverse as I have heard it called. RTD has worked to portray it, in Doctor Who and Torchwood prior to CoE, as a very tolerant world [examples on request]. All of a sudden in CoE the universe wasn't tolerant! It was such a departure from its norm that it felt like showing the homophobia in this case was being homophobic.

Another reason ties in with the harm that is possibly done when RTD says the show is not homophobic and JB stays quiet. Specifically, it makes CoE's hurtful, wrong generalizations (such as, say, gays recruit partners from the straight population) seem more true. If the points were wrong, RTD, who makes a point of highlighting that he is a gay man, would say so, right? Maybe even JB, the out and otherwise quite talkative gay lead actor would say so (even in an oblique way, like "showing these attitudes doesn't condone them; it show the wrongness, the evil, bleak, corruption of the world that the 456 came to." without, of course, mentioning that it is totally, inexplicably different from the world the show previously inhabited.) I'm afraid their statements (or lack of them) reinforce the opinions the majority of folks in the US apparently have, when they deny equal rights to LGBT people. So, again, in this case, showing CoE's homophobia felt ... homophobic.

Sorry this was so long! It started out because I wanted to chime in on day 5, and as I read more, it grew. It was a good thoughtful conversation to read, and I hope I've added to it.

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[phaetonschariot.livejournal.com]

I think a lot about CoE was different to the world of the first two seasons of Torchwood, which is the largest part of my problems with it. It really feels like CoE was a social political drama shoe-horned into the Torchwood universe, and if you look at it from that perspective then perhaps the commentary on how people view sexuality is part of the CoE story - but it shouldn't be part of the Torchwood story. (Granted I now actively avoid listening to anything RTD has to say - so I hadn't heard that he said it wasn't homophobic. The man really needs a PR agent.)

Aviv said that part of the offensiveness may be a geographical thing and I definitely agree with that - where I live, we have "everything but name" civil unions and openly gay and transgender politicians. There is still prejudice and will be for quite a long time, probably, but on the whole it seems to be far safer to be gay here than it is in America. I have faced some bullying, etc, as well as the more common casual comments and ignorance and such, but I've never really felt unsafe because of my sexuality, which provides a huge difference in perspective. I've also been trained in literature and the exploration of themes so I'm possibly more likely to look at something from that viewpoint because it's what I often do in my own writing as well.

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[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I agree that the problem with COE isn't that they decided to acknowledge that homophobia exists, but that their treatment of sexuality and homophobia in COE is a radical departure to what went on before and the argument that "they're outside the hub now" doesn't really explain because the tolerance in the previous seasons extended beyond that. When Mary kisses Tosh in the cafe apparently no-one even bats an eyelash and then you have Jack not only dancing with, but kissing a man in front of people in 1941 when homophobia would have been a lot more prevalent again apparently without any real repercussions. Everyone's sexuality is treated as fluid and no-one really feels the need to comment on it. Despite the fact that Ianto basically goes from being with Lisa to hooking up with Jack and that being Jack's boyfriend is pretty much his main function on the show at no point is he defined by his sexuality. It's never an issue. It's just a part of who he is and yet in COE it suddenly becomes pretty much his only defining quality to the point that people can apparently smell it on him. Ianto didn't die because of anything related to his 'gayness' so why does Andy even need to bring it up except to further reinforce the idea that Ianto's characterisation has basically become the sum total of his sexuality. These episodes and seasons aren't supposed to exist in a vacuum in relation to one another. They're supposed to flow from a consistent narrative so of course it's going to raise eyebrows when the world view in which these characters live in is suddenly altered. It gave the impression that COE existed in a separate universe to previous Torchwood episodes.

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[phaetonschariot.livejournal.com]

...that Ianto's characterisation has basically become the sum total of his sexuality.

Further reinforced by the revelation that every piece of information about his background we had was made up.

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[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Well that wasn't really hard to do considering his father being a tailor was pretty much the only family background they gave us on him in two seasons. heh!

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[phaetonschariot.livejournal.com]

That and that they went to the Electro when he was a kid. TWO PIECES. It pissed me off more than his death though - his death was killing him, but retconning the meagre amount of canon was like they were trying to erase him as well.

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[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

That's its exactly. I'm going to digress but its to make a point. I recently went to see the movie A Serious Man with two friends. We are all Jewish. I'm in my early 50s. One friend is 13 years older than I am (less 1 week), the other is 12 years younger.

I thought it was a warm-hearted look at a Jewish family/neighborhood almost identical to where I grew up (especially the Hebrew school and the different styles of Rabbis).

My older friend thought it was appalling - making fun of the Jewish community, showing it in a bad light. My younger friend thought the whole thing was silly.

And we all agree on why we felt the way we did. Older friend's father is a Holocaust survivor and grew up in a small town and experience a lot of anti-semitism growing up. Much like my parents, she believes that Jews 'shouldn't wash their dirty laundry in public.' And she is constantly viewing the world through her father's experience.

I grew up in a suburb that was 50% Jewish -the public schools closed on the Jewish holidays because not enough kids came to school. I experienced almost no prejudice growing up, but even though I've a had a few unpleasant experiences as an adult, I don't feel at all insecure about my place in America. But I do work hard with groups that support minority civil rights (gays, blacks, immigrants) because I'm worried that we are starting on a trend toward taking people's rights away.

My younger friend's view is "antisemitism, what antisemitism?" She also is very involved with minority rights issues but from the perspective of making sure other groups get the freedoms that Jews have.

So yes, age and geography make for my group, but for gays who are still being openly targeted by ministers, politicians, skinheads, etc, the opinion about CoE spanned all age groups. My dream is to wake up in ten years and hear a 20 member of the GLBT community say, 'gaybashing, what gaybashing.' Sigh, yeah I know, but its a dream.

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[(Anonymous)]

I think PhaetonsChariot has a point about geography making a big difference in point of view. I also agree, aviv_b, that age doesn't seem to in this case (I'm about your age).

To be fair, RTD has only commented, as far as I know, about whether Ianto's death was homophobic (answer: no) and whether he was pressured to de-gay Torchwood (answer: ambiguous). I don't know whether he was ever asked about issues in CoE other than Ianto's death.

I wasn't at ComicCon, but I heard he said things similar to what he said in this interview on AfterElton (http://www.afterelton.com/TV/2009/7/russeltdavies?page=0,3) when he was asked about Ianto's death being yet another dead queer. He said it wasn't, but that "...please don’t get on your high horse about Ianto Jones, for f*ck’s sake, who is fictional. Go do some good work in the real world where you can actually save some people’s lives." Right: Don't bother you about CoE and the death of a character in a same-sex relationship, because we can't both complain about your show and work for equal rights in the real world. Gotcha. And after all, TV is not at all influential to how people view the world...

Another was whether he felt pressured (http://www.thepostgameshow.com/?cat=185) to de-gay Torchwood. He said, "I think you can forget about people picking up gay rights as an issue. It’s rather like children picking up nursery blocks and waving them in the air but having no idea what it entails. We’re talking about issues in my entire life here, not just one small television program..." It doesn't answer yes or no, but does let you know that (1) Russell thinks that even if he is being homophobic, people won't care enough to make a lot of noise, and (2) he is, as they say, "the only gay in the village" and the rest of us (independent of sexual orientation, apparently) simply cannot understand well enough to even be able to reasonably question him about such things!

The sad thing is, he's right about (1), it seems. CoE is being lauded left and right as great drama. People don't seem to care about the homophobia (or notice it in some cases, maybe since it's so ingrained in our society?). I guess I'm out of step.

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[(Anonymous)]

Ooops, sorry about the odd look of what were supposed to be links. They were hotlinks, and were not bold, in the preview.

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[phaetonschariot.livejournal.com]

I don't say this often, but RTD can fuck off and die.

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[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I agree with PhaetonsChariot on geography making a difference as well.

RTD's statement about Ianto is a straw man arguement as you point out. As if caring about one thing precludes caring about something else. Pretty common retort when people don't have a logical comeback to a charge or statement. Used by children, the not very bright and by folks who really care about nothing. A grade school debate team knows better than to use that type of argument.

And I guess all my male gay friends are just children with nursury blocks (or are they hysterical womenz, I get sooo confused). Again, its a playground taunt, not really becoming of a theoretical adult. Note I say theoretical.

Wealth and priviledge has provided RTD with protection. He knows nothing about what the life of a not famous gay person is like (especially in the US). But considering he's living in the California where the voters repealed a court's decision to allow gay marriage he might just get on the clue train.

And for me, maybe that's the crux of it. I try (don't always succeed) to see other people's points of view and respect those who I don't agree with...on big issues like human rights or immigration as well as little issues (should Jack hook up with Gwen).

RTD apparently has no respect for anyone who isn't in 100% agreement with his genius. He's dismissive, insulting and juvenille. Needless to say, I won't be voting for him as gay man of the decade either, LOL.

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[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Isn't that a bit like saying only woman are allowed to be involved and have an opinion when it comes to women's rights?

To be honest I don't think Ianto was killed off because he was "queer" despite them laying it on a bit thick. I just think RTD ran out of people to kill after the quick succession demises of Tosh and Owen. He couldn't kill off Jack and he was never going to kill off Gwen.Plus while he may have had bit of a thing for GDL I don't think he felt much investment in his character so he was easily expendable.