Really, though...

[tencrush]

That Colin guy from Merlin is one of the fugliest people on the telly at the mo. That's not a subjective opinion on my part, that's like scientific fact or something. He's one of the two reasons I don't watch Merlin, the other one being that it's about fucking wizards. See also: more fucking wizards (Harry Potter), fucking trolls (Lord of the Rings) and fucking blue fairy people (Avatar). Do not be telling me I should be watching any of this shit, I cannot take it seriously.

I voted Neil Patrick Harris in the Big Gay Battle on After Elton. John Barrowman is just too gay to be allowed to win these sorts of things. I'm joking, of course (not about voting, I did vote NPH), there's no such thing as TOO GAY, but if there were, I'm pretty sure JB would qualify. But no, I purposefully voted against JB. For reasons I explained like a year and a half ago, I don't think he's the greatest candidate for big gay role model. Neither is NPH, probably (Man, he only came out like 3 years ago, dudes, really? Weird, I thought it was longer ago.), but there you go.

Comments

(frozen)

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I'm confused about your distinction between the version with 'taking it up the arse' and the one without. Can you clarify?

I respect your opinion and I know that there are a variety of views on this. But in the end, I have to give strongest weight to how it struck me and my circle of friends. I'm not sure what politically queer means, but since you state it as such, I am going to assume that you don't identify yourself as male gay to the world at large. (If I am incorrect in this assumption, my sincere apologies).

That is not to say that people of any minority status can't misunderstand something but ultimately the group has a right to say that something is offensive. Maybe it wasn't meant that way, but that's the way it came across to many people gay and straight. Of my 11 gay male friends, only one would agree with your interpretation of the Johnny and Andy lines. This doesn't mean that you are wrong, but it does say that given the sensitivity of this issue that the writers and producers should have been very careful to make sure that the intent of these comments was clearly understood. And if it was misunderstood then it needed to be explained.

As for JB, I totally understand your point. I wasn't expecting him to say what you suggested, but perhaps something along the lines of that he didn't believe the writers were intentionally being insensitive, explaining what they were trying to depict (assuming your interpretation or similar is correct) and that he was sorry if it was perceived this way.

Actually that's what RTD should have said, but I think JB could have said that without pissing off anyone.

Sitting silently while your own community feels insulted and maligned are not the qualities of the Gay Man of the Decade, IMHO. So, no I don't think JB is a horrible, evil, person, just not worthy of the title.

(frozen)

[phaetonschariot.livejournal.com]

Clarification - upset at being called gay implies that he's uncomfortable with his sexuality itself. Upset about the assumption that he takes it up the arse implies that he's uncomfortable with the assumption that simply because he's dating a man, he must be engaging in a specific sexual practice that is often associated with being the "girly" partner of a gay couple. Many, many homophobic insults relate to anal sex, like fudgepacker or shirtlifter, and there are even (utterly bizarre) groups of men who advocate having sex with other men but TOTALLY AREN'T GAY OMG because they don't do any of that ICKY anal sex stuff. Incidentally, a comparable number of gay couples and straight couples engage in anal sex. Basically, in one version he's uncomfortable about dating Jack, and in the other he's uncomfortable about people thinking he's the woman in a faux-heterosexual relationship.

Personal identification - I'm female, I normally identify as asexual but in situations where I don't feel like explaining that 'yes, it is possible to not be interested in sex, really, I'm not doing it wrong, I don't need you to show me how, please leave me alone', I identify as lesbian. I have no attraction to men whatsoever. Gay men and gay women do face quite different kinds of discrimination, but also some quite similar ones.

I suspect my comment overall had different implications than I meant - I totally agree with anyone's right to be offended by things, I just wanted to point out that in some cases the offensive thing is quite a grey area. There are certain things that are just out and out offensive and you'd have to be pretty uninvolved to argue otherwise, and others where it's all subtext and inference and personal experience and whether you're personally offended or not are equally valid, and in those cases I do, personally, find it difficult to.... not condemn, that's too strong a word for what I mean, but maybe to think less of people involved for not addressing the concerns of those who are offended - of course it would be best if they did, absolutely, but JB in particular has never exactly been known as a paragon of tact and social politics about anything, let alone LGBT issues, which can be considered part of his charm. (The same can be said about RTD, but in his case it's rather not part of his charm.)

I think most people can agree that there's a lot of batshit in this fandom so it can be hard to figure out who has really extreme views and who is open to reasonable discussion and compromise. :P

(frozen)

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I probably should have mentioned that my circle of friends in the US all downloaded CoE long before it was shown in the US. So we all saw the 'uncut' version - which could explain the strong negative reaction, especially to the taking it up arse remark.

And as several others have said the Andy thing was more of a WTF moment. Why would this be important to telling Rhiannon that her brother had died? Now if he asked whether his sister knew that he worked for TW, that would have made some sense. It was so out of place that its easy to assume a negative sub-text running through it.

I appreciate your candor about your own personal identification. This does help me to understand where you are coming from. Being an 'other' regardless of what kind in an other-unfriendly world is not easy.

You are right on the money about JB and RTD and tact or lack thereof, LOL.

US LBGT's (and their friends and families) are under political attack here in the US. It's truly frightening. So perhaps this explains why something that is in that gray area (for the sake of argument) would be so hurtful. When you are already being treated as sub-human, deviant and criminal by many, you hope at least prominent members of your own community won't be seen as helping the enemy.

Bat-shit crazy - yeah, about that. I take no extreme views. Don't want Ianto's back, not mailing coffee to anyone. The reason I'm opposed to Gwack is not because I only want J/I pairing - its because I think Rhys is the real catch and I don't want Gwen to lose this or to have him killed off as well. I read bastard!Jack fics and domestic Janto fics, its all good (except MPREG which I just can't deal with) as long as its well written and makes sense in the context in which its written.

I only go bat-shit crazy when 'serious' stories by 'professional' writers don't hold together, where characters don't act consistently episode to episode let alone between series, when its boring or derivative or just over the top. Uh, like The last two years of DW and a fair amount of TW.

I appreciate your comments - you've given me much to think about.