See... the thing is...

[tencrush]

When you DECLINE my request to join the savecoffeeboy community, a request I submitted in order to attempt to find out if this MASSIVE PDF was an official document of yours, or a personal project, you really make yourselves look like you're up to something if not suspicious, at the least really rather bordering on the crazy side.

I've PM'd you guys and I've mailed you, whoever's in charge of this document:

TAKE MY NAME, MY WORDS, MY COMMUNITY, MY PONY CAMPAIGN AND MY IMAGES OUT OF YOUR GARGANTUAN FILE OF BATSHIT. I am not affiliated with your insanity.

Comments

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

At least one of their members describes herself as an authority and is considered a "talisman" because she was involved in the SGA campaign to bring back a character and one other campaign, which may or may not be Jericho.

A real problem in terms of their goals is that at least 80% (maybe more) of the campaign is not just "bring back Ianto" but "bring back Ianto in the relationship with Jack that we thought we were promised."

My new pet theory is this: they get their way to the extent that Ianto is brought back and in a delightfully soapy plot twist, we have the reveal of him alive...as the cut-away from Jack & Gwen tumblng into bed together.

Or suppose they bring him back, and eventually put him in a relationship with Lois Habbiba? Do we think all the "I only want GDL back" folks would really be happy with that?

So there's an inherent hypocrisy in the whole thing. It's not really "Save Coffee Boy," it's "Save Our Ship."

[(Anonymous)]

Not strictly true. As someone who uses the SIJ campaign as a good source of GDL news, I can tell you that a large majority of the fans over there don't even like Jack. I personally was hoping for a break-up in season three so we could see Ianto in a relationship with someone else, but sadly it was not to be.

Sorry. Remaining anonymous as I really want nothing to do with this PDF wank.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

I have an excellent pipe-line, so I know a lot of what goes on over there. My feeling (and I know it's not everybody) is that the anti-Jack sentiment is mostly motivated by the lack of schmoop in the relationship in CoE, again, relative to what they insist they were promised, especially in the promo-pictures, especiallyespecially the ones that depicted Jack embracing Ianto, which more than one person used to refute my well-known thoughts on the balance of emotion between the characters.

If you look at the Twitter campaign, especially, it's all focused on Jack/Ianto. I've yet to see anyone tweeting for the BBC to bring back Ianto and not put him back with Jack.

I understand that the campaign is not monolithic and that there are some differing points of view. There is also a very loud clamour for getting Ianto back, specifically to put in a J/I relationship that they feel will fulfill the "broken promises."

Again, if they got Ianto back, following a consumated (either physically or emotionally) Jack/Gwen, or if Ianto were put in a relationship with another character (male or female), would that be considered a victory, or would it lead to more vilification of RTD?

Edited to clarify: My sources tell me what goes on at SCB, not the SIJ website. So I get to see the the super-crazy stuff.

[(Anonymous)]

Aye, I was referring to the SCB site also.

I don't use twitter, so I've not seen anything that goes on over there. I'm a member of the campaign because I adore Ianto as a character and while I enjoyed elements of his relationship with Jack, I watched it for him. I just hope this PDF thing won't give everyone in the campaign and Ianto fans a bad name, because there are many others who feel the way I do over there but are not vocal about it due to the crazy.

As for Jack, I enjoyed his interactions with Ianto through the three seasons, but as a character I find him dull. I sure hope if Ianto ever does come back, they don't pair those two up again. Instead they should bring Tosh back and hook him up with her.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

High fives to Ianto/Tosh. I'd have no problem with that whatsoever. Or Ianto/ABJ for that matter. Give him Lois or someone else.

You shouldn't have to be afraid to say that.

But can you imagine the epic wank that would ensue, if it occured?

[(Anonymous)]

You know what? They should just bring the whole team back and let them all shag eachother. That would put an end to the shipper wars.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Which is exactly what I always wanted and (not to sound too much liked the Hysterical Ones) what I felt we were promised in the first place. A show where everyone screwed everyone and there was no ship-war. If we'd been given that, my Torchwood life would have been a lot easier, let me tell you.

[(Anonymous)]

It would've made it a lot harder for me to dislike characters too. I don't like disliking characters.

[tencrush]

I think one of the major reasons it comes across as really ship-based (which is one of the reasons I don't support it, I loved Ianto, but was meh about the ship), is because the ship's a lovely handy thing for them to hang their accusations of homophobia onto. The killing of the ship, the ending of the m/m relationship and the whole GLBT angle is the one thing they can really get on a moral high horse about, and therefore the ship is referenced at every opportunity.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Which leads to the "LAMBDA mark" stuff and makes them look, dare I say it, hysterical. I honestly think a totally character-based campaign a la SGA, might have a better chance. The fact they conflate the demise of their ship with the "horrifying" potential of Gwenwood i.e. Jack & Gwen, doesn't do them any favours in refuting the charges of misogyny and heterophobia.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I agree and disagree. Yeah, I think a lot of these folks are upset because their ship hit an iceberg.

Personally, I'm upset, because I think Jack will be reduced to a cameo. And a Gwencentric show whether she's faithful to Rhys, or with Jack or screwing aliens just doesn't interest me.

However, I do think that there was something uncomfotably homophobic about CoE. I don't want to rehash everything, but for a show that spent two seasons telling us that labels didn't matter, they spent an awful lot of time labelling Ianto in CoE.

That being said, I don't want Ianto back. As was pointed out, if RTD were really the evil genius he thinks he is, he'd say, "Ok, I'll bring him back and then pair him with a weevil or Rhys' mother.

Personally, I was so hoping that in S3 Ianto was going to kick Jack to the curb and go and find himself someone better.

But in the end, it is just a show. One I won't be watching anymore. And that's the best protest of all - not supporting the franchise.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

If we'd gotten the "everybody screws everybody" show, life would be easier and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Whether the homophobia was deliberate or not, and I'm willing to say you can make a good case either way, making it a big part of the report really doesn't do the "cause" any good, and I think tends to marginalize them, and make it look like it's all about the ship.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I see your point. The homophobia is really a separate issue. I think A silver story had written to the BBC about this issue and got back a standard "we know you are upset about Ianto dying." Whoever it was, was going to send another email and see if they could actually get them to least address the issue. Wonder if they did (sneaking off to check).

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Assuming Auntie Beeb gives a rat's arse about this particular concern, keep in mind this could also give RTD or anyone else leeway to "fix" the problem by giving Jack (or another character) another male lover, or having a same-sex female relationship in the next series.

Making the argument about homophobia a focal point, doesn't necessarily bring back Ianto, or an idealized Jack/Ianto.

It's also unseemly as others have pointed out, to do so in a document that teems with misogyny and heterophobia. As virulent as the Gwen-hate is in that next of the wood, they really should have gotten at least one outside pair of eyes to look at it. Someone not as invested in their POV might have blown some sanity into the discussion.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I'm another Ianto fan who would have been delighted to see him in a new relationship, even with a female character, shock horror. I used to get annoyed at the lack of Ianto/OFC fanfic out there, though I do enjoy Jack/Ianto fanfic if its well written and doesn't feature woobie Ianto.

I can't believe anyone thinks RTD will bring Ianto back because of a fan campaign. Only if Russell wakes up one morning with an ache in his heart will that happen - and we're talking about the man who killed Jack's grandson and who's going to kill Doc Ten on New Years Day - what a nice way to start the new year, thanks Russell. :)

BTW - If Gareth knew the full extent of this campaign, I'd think he'd be quite embarassed. He's already said in a radio interview that whilst he's flattered, he also finds it "creepy" which shows that he does care how fans behave over him.

Mind you, it's nothing new. Sir Arthur Conon-Doyle was pestered into bringing Sherlock Holmes back from the dead after Moriorty killed him and that was how many years ago? Fan obsession is what the film 'Misery' was about.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

I think the thing is that fan campaigns have worked on other occasions, but it isn't really a tradition here, and RTD is the wrong person. Although I guess the BBC do have the final say. It could be like Dr Polaski, and Ianto is bought back to season 5.

Or like Sherlock Holmes, just make some more shows set pre CoE. I would love some more set pre exit wounds as well...

I hate that it's got to the point of creepiness, and I hate that GDL has been dragged into it in that book. I think it's a low blow. The whole thing was unnecessary anyhow, they didn't need to rub it in any more, and could have achieved more with a little summary of the fund raising, and a tally of how many letters, coffee or whatever they have sent. Not that I think that is necessary.

I love Jack/Ianto, and I do feel that it is a terrible shame it had such wasted potential. I probably wouldn't have kept watching S1 if it weren't for the chemistry between them, but I would have kept watching for Ianto, no matter what happened.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

If it had been possible for Jack to really fall in love with Ianto, I would have loved their relationship but it's been obvious for a while that Ianto would never be anything more than another passing lover for Jack, at least as far as the producers were concerned. I do question the writers dragging the Jack/Ianto thing out over the course of three series though, as it made their relationship seem more serious than it was intended to be.

You're right that the BBC are less inclined to do something because of a fan campaign than US networks. RTD will only ever bring Ianto back if he personally thinks its a good idea.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

I think that we are meant to see the relationship as serious, and RTD and Euros Lynne genuinely believed that they were telling a beautiful love story. However RTD has a rather skewed idea of love and the equality of relationships and I think that is what ended up being played out. He likes to leave it to the end to show any sort of emotion from his distant hero, such as The Doctor with Rose, or Jack in the death scene, because otherwise it all has to be in subtext. I do think that the radio plays were a much warmer view of them, as are some of the books. (which I don't think are necessarily canon, the plays are though. )

Thing is, RTD no longer works for the BBC. Yet he is spouting about season 4. I'm still very dubious about it all. I imagine the BBC aren't really certain of anything with a new government coming, and the Tories are hardly friendly to them.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

Or suppose they bring him back, and eventually put him in a relationship with Lois Habbiba? Do we think all the "I only want GDL back" folks would really be happy with that?

I FUCKING LOVE THIS IDEA!
but i also would like him to come back and be EVIL - and not how they copped out with john hart, but really really evil! it'll never happen, and i'm good with that, too

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Evil!Ianto/Lois OTP! Let's start the fandom now.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

THAT WOULD BE SO AWESOME!
i mean, maybe not as awesome as evil!tosh, but still...

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

I'm seriously tempted to write a drabble for consci_fan_mo.

(Maybe there's a TW equivalent of the Star Trek Mirror Universe. Then GDL could hang on to some of that facial hair he appears to be so fond of.)

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

oh, you SHOULD!
actually, kayliemalinza wrote one where alternate universe tosh and ianto came through the rift and weren't entirely on the up and up with jack and the team - it was awesome, but she never finished it :(

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

For you, sweetheart, I am going to add this to my Holiday drabble list.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

WHOO!