MORE THOUGHTS ON THE ULTIMATE MESSAGE OF DAYS ONE THROUGH FOUR

[tencrush]

We knew this was a retooling of sorts for the show, designed to attract a MASSIVE new and shiny audience, and it has. There are literally MILLIONS of people watching series three, who have NOT seen either series one or two of Torchwood.

And what have these shiny new viewers learned from Children of Earth? Well, see there's these three people in Torchwood, one's like from the future or someting, one's the married pregnant chick and let's just hammer the point home really quite bluntly with neon signs and anvils and such, that one over there? In the suit, see him? IANTO?? IANTO'S THE QUEER ONE.

Have you all got that? Yeah? Good. Right... let's kill the queer one.

Seriously. It's very tasteful, that, Russell. Nicely done.

Comments

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

I <3 MY DEAD GAY IANTO

Just to problematise: Barrowman's profile is so high in the UK that I suspect an awful lot of viewers know about Jack's sexual proclivities, even if they haven't seen previous Torchwood. Certainly anyone who's seen Jack in Who will.

Still in denial, btw. Have worked out somewhat plausible means of rescue in final episode. Thank heavens all this trauma will be over in half a day's time. Also thank heavens for understanding husbands.

[tencrush]

I think, in the scheme of "We're making a valid point about same-sex relationships and we think it's important to show that this is just normal and not ramp it up but just have it BE THERE" and all that bullshit that RTD has always come out with about Jack and Ianto, IANTO is in fact, the more important token-gay-character, if you will, because Jack is not an oh-I-identify-with-him type of guy, by virtue of him being omnisexual and from the future and all that shizzle. In terms of who is the Everygay, I think that's Ianto. And they killed him. I don't think that's a very pleasant message.

[forgiveninasong.livejournal.com]

I just cannot STAND how RTD, as a GAY MAN, can do this to a GAY RELATIONSHIP! I'm bisexual, and I'm fucking outraged that he's done this.

RTD has made it clear LOADS of times that he hates the fans, and I hope that people going to ComicCon in San Diego abuse him, haha.

I just... :( I'm still gutted about this :(

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

That's the other thing that strikes a wrong note with me. Surely teh ghey is one of Torchwood's big selling points? This is the SF show with the two pretty boys getting it on? Why lose that? Ten years ago it'd have been obvious why. But why now?

(Sorry I keep obsessing in your lj, tencrush. It won't quit gnawing at me.)

[bandgeek01.livejournal.com]

I'm still debating if I'm going to his signing, cause I'll tell him off and be like WTF.

First I'd say why are you here if you hate the fans and 2 tell me why would you kill off a major gay relationship when it's moved to the flagship station?


Nicole

[(Anonymous)]

I've always felt this relationship was underwritten. Compare with the amount of screentime Gwen and Rhys get. Gwen's the female lead yet to most fans Jack's the central character whilst Ianto is a member of the main cast and Rhys is a supporting character.

In my opinion they sidelined the gay relationship in the show. I don't know why. I'm not gay or bi. I don't give a huge amount of thought to gay depictions on screen but I can't help feeling that for all the show talks about fluid sexuality, no big deal yadda yadda they were a bit too gutless when it came down to it to walk the walk and show some depth or development to the relationship. I'm not surprised that people who feel more personally affected by this than me are livid at what's happened. Nor in more general terms that fans feel they've been sold a lemon by TPTB.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

I just cannot STAND how RTD, as a GAY MAN, can do this to a GAY RELATIONSHIP!...I'm fucking outraged that he's done this.

Outraged is the word I used, too. And I'm totally straight and have no friends or close acquaintances in a same sex relationship.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

This show reminds me an awful lot of BtVS, particularly in terms of how Buffy and Spike's relationship ended. Ianto (Spike) was devoted to Jack (Buffy), Jack's (Buffy's) feelings remained enigmatic, the dying declaration of love fell flat, and ultimately Ianto (Spike) was sacrificed (in a relatively passive rather than actively heroic way) to make some point about how it's lonely at the top for a hero.

I guess RTD at least avoided having Ianto killed like Tara, right after sex. Justifications about Janto sound a lot like what Joss said when Tara was killed to me as well.

[tencrush]

It's very, very reminiscent, I agree. With Gwen being Angel, of course. Here we a have character who becomes a surprising fan favourite, and eventually what seems like the creator's original OTP (Buffy/Angel, Jack/Gwen) is ditched in favour of a kind of fanservicey sexytiems relationship involving the Spike, which ultimately never quite satisfies, because we never really find out how The Hero feels about it, and in the end The Spike dies to prove a point about the hero, leaving the fans feeling like he deserved better somehow (the rape notwithstanding, of course.)

[queencheesecake.livejournal.com]

...does that mean, though, that we'll get a spin-off of a spin-off and Spike!Ianto will come back as a ghost?

[aresnz.livejournal.com]

I still think John would love a TW series 4; however,he did say Day 5 was written in a way that could also be a finale. Well, with the killing off of Ianto I think RTD has underestimated the reaction. I'm thrilled the ratings have been great; especially for July. The writing and acting has been brilliant.

Now, RTD is being very, very Joss Whedon like. Whenever a relationship seems to be going good..he'll destroy it. Why they did this to Ianto I'll never know.

I'm a huge fan of John and Capt Jack..BUT..I'm not interested in the Jack and Gwen show. Lois will probably come to the revamped TW and be the new PA.

Lori

[louisema.livejournal.com]

A large part of me wants the ratings for the last day to fall completely flat.

As in, virtually EVERY SINGLE PERSON watching goes "wut? No more Ianto? F*ck this." and switches off.

It's not going to happen. This makes me sad.

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

I still haven't seen Day Four, but having been spoiled from every angle - and having read your speculation - I'm totally not surprised. And I'm mostly upset because this move up through the BBC has brought compromise after compromise - the sex and language was in our face on BBC3, less so on BBC2 and almost missing on BBC1. And then Ianto was dead and it was gone altogether.

Conversely, somehow, the storytelling has gotten better. Clearly RTD (and Chibnall) have no real idea of how to balance the two things. But as you say, if millions of people are watching TW for the first time, Ianto is the token gay character that has been killed off.

But more than that - season four is just Jack and Gwen and whatever knew characters they keep from this and/or Mickey and/or Martha? Meh.

[finn-aus.livejournal.com]

See what really, really ticks me off about the amazing ratings for TW S3 is that those who've done the hard yards, been there through some truly horrible moments, don't get rewarded. In fact, we get the opposite, we get well and truly shafted!

And of course, RTD will sit back and bask in his glow of successful breakout series while the legitimate, show building fans, get no credit, get no love and have to pretend to enjoy a Ianto-less show. Well, f-that I say.

And what's even sadder was body bag Ianto, all blue and so totally dead. I was hoping for a miracle and lord be, it would have to be some kind of miracle for my boy to resurrect from that!

Also, let it be said, I'm not a service the fans kinda girl. I don't believe in writing a series based purely on what your fanbase responds to, and while some more fanatical shippers would have loved a white Ianto-Jack wedding, I'm a little more realistic (I do watch TW). Still, how do you not see a crazy groundswell for Gareth and the how much in S1 alone, when he did not much at all, the fanbase responded. I don't expect presents of shipper-ness but I don't expect you to piss on their relationship/the character either.

[(Anonymous)]

THIS!

The fandom kept interest in the series going throughout the down times. For Christ's sake, it was 15 months between series this time, but people still went to cons, bought books, kept the forums going and kept interest up, and the BBC and RTD used us as a taken for granted viewership.

And then they they threw us under the bus for their 'new audience' who will probably not go to cons, buy DVDs or anything else. And you know what? Neither will I anymore.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I'm dissapointed nothing came of the 'couple' thing Ianto was hinting at in episode 1. It's like his chat with Rhiannon where he says "I don't know what this is" was totally for nothing.

Although I was plesaed to see some reaction from Jack over Ianto's death, the whole Jack/Ianto storyarc has been underwhelming to say the least - like Owen and Tosh dying before they could go on their date.

[radiant-pip.livejournal.com]

I think Jack thought they were a couple so he didn't so he didn't see what the big deal was that Ianto was making.

Would've been nice if they actually had a conversation about it at some point. Instead we got snippy Jack at Ianto a few times, Ianto doing everything for Jack with not one moment of Jack doing anything for Ianto (I know it's Ianto's job to take care of the team, but come on!)...except essentially getting him killed, and not even a last alive kiss or shag (thanks to Rhys and his bloody beans) for the obviously doomed one.

I do get from the death scene that Jack loves Ianto, but it would've been nice to hear. (Although, Buffy said it to Spike and did anyone really believe her?)

All in all, I'm very disappointed about this death. The whole setup was very manipulative and obvious (die like a dog indeed :( ). It was kind of a stupid/pointless death. AND, the worst part is, it happened at the end of episode 4 and there will be too much going on in episode 5 so no more on-screen mourning for Ianto! It's not like he deserved it anyway...

What we got before his death could've been so much better AND it would've helped more with the angst, IMO. Oh well.

[chasethesun.livejournal.com]

It's pretty hard to take. I can only assume that the writers simply haven't spent any amount of time thinking about Ianto as a character in his own right, in the way that the fans have, and that Gareth has.
I'm gutted for Gareth. He's gotten better and better, finally gets his first meaningful screentime and gets the rug pulled out from under him. He didn't even get to the 5th episode! This was his first real job and he doesn't have the same background as Naoko and Burn in terms of experience. How easy will it be for him to get another job? I'm also sad that I wont get to see him on my screen as Ianto anymore or as the person who brings the best performances out of JB or who can turn crappy dialogue into something worthwhile. Woe :'(

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

The idea that Gareth won't get another significant role is even more frightening than Ianto's death. Let's hope COE brings him to the attention of more producers and writers, though I'm not holding ny breath.

The More things Change the More they stay the same

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

This reminds me of the stereotypical American Western of the 1960s. The bad girl would fall in love with the hero, he would redeem her and then she has to die.

I agree with the sentiment that a big factor was 'acceptability' of a gay character to an earlier BBC1 time slot. And just think if he had been a happy, non-angsty gay character - they would have had kill him off even sooner!

There is one interesting counter-point to this. There is a group of fans that have hated the fact that Jack was 'settling down.' They wanted the more ruthless, uncaring Jack of DW to carry on. And I confess that initially I agreed with this position. The problem with this is once you develop the relationship and a large majority of fans buy into it, you can't just throw it under the bus like its a piece of garbage to satify AuntieB and new gay-squeemish fans.

And personally, I like JB, but I feel sooooo betrayed by his statements about how the relationship was going to deepen in S3. Guess I didn't understand that a deep relationship meant 6 feet under.

I can't wait to hear what happens at ComicCon in LA. Should be verryyyy interesting.

Re: The More things Change the More they stay the same

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

And personally, I like JB, but I feel sooooo betrayed by his statements about how the relationship was going to deepen in S3. Guess I didn't understand that a deep relationship meant 6 feet under.

Heh.

You mean you aren't impressed that he'll remember Ianto 4evah??

No, me either. I'd rather having a living Ianto who had been entirely forgotten by Jack, frankly.

[nieded.livejournal.com]

I am less upset with the death than how the death was handled because I've continuously kept in mind that most everyone in TW dies old. Imho, in S3 they butchered Ianto's character. He had some great moments but for the most part all of his actions and scenes were about Jack, not the team or saving the world. Jack. I've always considered Ianto the level-headed Dark Horse of Torchwood and yet I was pretty unimpressed by him throughout CoE. And then dies. In the most cliché way possible with the 'ilu!' and 'please remember me!' lines that can easily be found in fic. I almost think the writers were looking for any old excuse to get Ianto in that room so he could have his big death even if it lacked logic -- which it did.

The writing has been so tight thus far except for that moment. I think the death could have been written much better instead of falling flat. It kind of puts a black mark on the entire series for me despite it otherwise being so good. RTD HAD EPIC FAIL.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, Shelley again, trying to be more coherent.
I think that the writers were saying that we would find out the sort of level that the Jack/Ianto relationship was at this series and how they both felt about each other. People are saying that cos there was no romance that we haven't seen the depth of their relationship, but thats cos they (we) don't want to see the truth, cos it hurts. To me, the new canon truth seems to be : Basically Jack wanted an easy shag without having to leave the office and Ianto wanted a proper relationship with talking and trust etc and Jack ends up just wishing he never got involved. I got that vibe in S.Borrowed and again in that conversation in day 4 "Why didn't you tell me? I could have helped" "OK Ianto what should I have done" (sarky put-down you don't know about anything tone).
Everything you are saying about the pointlessness of his death and stupidness of their "plan" is why I think I am not crying and just feel hollow rather than sad like I did with Tosh and even Owen.

Also, how about a fitting memorial for I Jones? I propse a one minute internet silence.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

and THAT is exactly what i was fucking worried about

dammit, i might be writing a thinky post later
i wanted to avoid that

[(Anonymous)]

It couldn't have been any clearer where this series was going when it showed the straight couple happily kissing with all the "my gorgeous husband" business and the baby on the way, while the same sex couple was kept apart by... beans. Oh, and the great big QUEER bullseye on Ianto.

Oh, well done, RTD. We know where you stand now.I wonder if this was part of the deal in moving to BBC1.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Seriously. It's very tasteful, that, Russell. Nicely done.

The last one you'd expect the gay showrunner to kill, even for shock value.

RTD is a self-hating bitch

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Here's my bottom line.

[(Anonymous)]

Can people in the UK tell me if GDL is at least gettiing some press out of all this? I think he did quite a lot with a sometimes thankless & ignored character.

Burn and Naoko got tons of press when Tosh and Owen were victimized by RTD's flighty shortsightedness. I believe he was burned out when he wrote CoE, but now he's talking about doing more TW? WTF!? It was so "THE END"

Thanks for any info.

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

Oh but you forgot the most important thing.
The queer one died of a virus.