tencrush: (Default)
[personal profile] tencrush
Oh, alright then, I'll do a post about Jack, Ianto and anal sex. Elsewhere on my flist there's already a rant about the subject, but I still feel inspired enough to contribute my thoughts on the matter.


First off, let me just say that I read very little in the way of fic. I have these bouts of extreme boredom now and again, during which I'll suddenly read about ten fics, but that's about it. I've noticed, though, during these binges, that there seem to be some overused descriptions in Jack/Ianto fic (for that is what I'll usually read, and as I've said before, the main reason I do so is because sitting down to read a big splodge of fic in one go every four weeks or so gives one an interesting insight into the overriding themes that people seem to be thinking along, I find every so often, the angle at which fic writers approach a relationship like Jack/Ianto will change, due to new canon or speculation, and suddenly romance will be higher on the agenda, or the top will become the bottom, or some such thing) and, not being an avid reader, I wonder if these are specific to this relationship, or more general slash tropes, or what. Anyone who can tell me is more than welcome to do so.

  • THE LUBRICATION COEFFICIENT. People are always complaining that there's not enough lube in bumseks fics. I find this weird, because it doesn't really bother me. I find that, unless specific mention is made of there NOT being lube involved, I usually just assume that it is, whether it's mentioned or not. Someone made mention of the overuse of the lube-bottle-cap-click sound effect in Jack/Ianto fic, I've noticed this, too, and it always strikes me as a fic author's way of obliquely mentioning the lube in in order to avoid the "WOT? NO LUBE?" comments that would inevitably follow if they didn't. Is this really such a problem for the reader? Is it really too much to ask people to assume there's lubrication involved? Is it just me that assumes that there is? I personally think there's TOO MUCH mention of lube in Jack/Ianto fics. That can't just be me. (And sometimes, the "Wot no lube?" question strikes me as such a terribly anal-virgin question to ask. Obviously there's lube involved. Or a fuck of a lot of precum. Either way, does it really matter enough to warrant a mention every single time?)

  • THE UNBEARABLE TIGHTNESS OF BEING. The word "tight". Yeah, the arse, Jack or Ianto's, whichever you fancy, is a "tight hole". I won't dispute that in any way, though I must say that the mention of it being a tight hole always strikes me as a tad superfluous, and, in a way, such a terribly heterosexual observation. I mean, okay, it's tight, but dear God it's not that tight and a guy will only really say that it's tight because he's mentally comparing it to your vagina. Yeah it's tight. And hot. Hot and tight. "Tight heat", even. Yes, I get it already.

  • THE FINGER-SCISSOR-COCK MANEUVRE. I have a myriad of problems with this particular preparatory procedure. The first being that its description is always so overly clinical, and I can never help picturing Jack frowning in concentration as if trying to undo the tricky nut up there that makes Ianto's arse unclench (And, yeah, I find it's usually Ianto on the receiving end of this one.) But mostly it's just the simple fact that nobody, not even the most virginal of arses, is so tight that they would require this much in the way of relaxation. Prep work for anal sex is mental, and does indeed involve relaxation, but that relaxation can be achieved in whatever way you fancy, because it's mental. It doesn't require that specific tenderising-a-steak thing that some authors seem to love so much. It's mental. Got it? And apart from anything else, and as has been pointed out by several people, you can't really scissor anything up there. It ain't that roomy, and I, personally, always find myself distracted by those scissoring fingers and where they end up going next. One day, maybe I'll get that fic where they have a cuddle afterwards and one of them strokes the other's hair and the other one says "Could you not do that? Your fingers smell like my butt."


Now all of these things have something in common in my mind, and it's why I wanted to bring them up. They all strike me as a bit het, and a touch romantic. The use of lube, the tight descriptors, the thorough and loving preparation involved, it all strikes me as the sort of thing involved when heterosexual couples finally breach that frontier of "May I put my cock up your arse in a non-accidental fashion?", and not really in character for a gay couple that are regularly fucking each other. (I'm not even going to go into the amount of anal sex that Jack and Ianto seem to have, as a percentage of the total sex-things that they do, because, again, it strikes me as worryingly high, and often seems to have a vibe of this-is-the-slash-equivalent-of-vaginal-intercourse-and-therefore-romantic about it) I could, of course, be entirely wrong, I'm not a gay couple, but there's just something off about it to me. My question, really, is, are these general slash things, or are they more prevalent in Jack/Ianto than they are elsewhere? Because the thing is, to me as a reader, Jack/Ianto fic tends to come across as overly vanilla and romantic, and these things are a part of that. Now given the fact that Jack and Ianto are canonically having sex, but canon is slightly more vague on their romantic attachment, I can well figure why this would be the case in this particular pairing, fic is the place where fans fill in the gaps in canon, after all, and as far as the sex goes, this canon's not particularly gappy. If it's more of a general slash thing, is that just the heterosexuality and possible anal virginity of female authors shining through? Is that how women would like the backdoor to be approached if it's even approached at all? Am I just giving off way TMI by even mentioning that I think it's all so... delicate? I am, aren't I?

Bum.

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Date: 2008-12-08 04:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] offer-of-hope.livejournal.com
I'll be back in a minute, having been through this in another fandom in which teh gai boiz took exception to the fanon use of the term "asslips."

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Date: 2008-12-08 04:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dune-drd.livejournal.com
And this is why I don't write pr0n. Ever.

Date: 2008-12-08 04:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mslauren2930.livejournal.com
this is why I read only a select few writers and mock the rest from time to time in my LJ. there is just waaaaaaaay too much bad pr0n out there.

One day, maybe I'll get that fic where they have a cuddle afterwards and one of them strokes the other's hair and the other one says "Could you not do that? Your fingers smell like my butt." - someday I am writing a purposely bad fic for a friend of mine and I am so using this as the ending. :D

Date: 2008-12-08 04:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dividedloyalty.livejournal.com
Your post had me in STITCHES hehehe THE UNBEARABLE TIGHTNESS OF BEING. LOL

But I do have a couple things to add.

First, the common-place you mentioned happens in any fandom. At least it happens in ALL the fandoms I read (which ok, they aren't too many, but still). I had this discussion a little while ago, and we decided it works in waves too, like a domino effect: one author uses an expression, you get that expression for the next couple months.

Second, well. The people that write slash stories are mostly women, and a large part of them so young they don't really have the experience on the subject. I truly believe they learned from fanfiction, so they are probably using the knowledge they aquired from another 14 year old girl... the cycle is endless lol.

Cheers!

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Date: 2008-12-08 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mellacita.livejournal.com
All very common slash tropes in any fandom. Probably since the Kirk/Spock days. Most people who write slash fiction have likely not had the experience of a cock up their ass, so they follow the leader.

Lots of slash fic is heteronormative. Anal sex = full connection, trumpets, true love. After all, blow jobs, frottage, wanking, cigars, etc are not real sex. And real sex is essential for couples to be really in love. And to make babies. Etc. Or something?

As for assuming there is lube...I dunno, when I read a fic with no mention of lube, I assume the writer is clueless (I have had to read about one to many self-lubing assholes), not that they assume we will know it is there because, well, duh. Glass half empty or half full sort of thing I guess?

As for preparation being mental, I do agree, but (er, tmi) I generally find physical preparation really important too. For me. I can't speak for Jack or Ianto. :P

Date: 2008-12-08 08:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ionlylurkhere.livejournal.com
And to make babies. Etc. Or something?

Well, yeah. You only need to look at the popularity of mpreg to realise just how heteronormative the whole business tends.

Date: 2008-12-08 05:04 pm (UTC)
ext_2751: (johngarathkai ohlulzbuttsecks)
From: [identity profile] x-pixel-x.livejournal.com
They're all sorta hallowed slash tropes, sorry to say.

The only one that really gets to me is extreme overemphasis on anal sex. It makes me cry after a while. This also seems to be more of an issue in TW, at least as opposed to my other main fandom at the moment. Blowjobs are FUN people, also handjobs, also lots of other things.....

Now I've got the urge to run off to the bookstore and start reading the gay erotica and see how the boys write it.

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Date: 2008-12-08 05:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanchaidh.livejournal.com
The fingers-scissor-cock thing has been around as long as I've been in fandom and slash fiction, which is a good 12 years now. Why? Probably someone put that in and others liked it and it spread like the plague. Have I used it? I think so, but I try for research. There used to be a good resource written by a gay man for slash writers, but the last time I checked, he hadn't updated in years. This, of course, implies that a writer research something s/he doesn't know... and oh dear god, there are so many people who don't. :( Sex or no sex.

Date: 2008-12-09 02:17 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Possibly, Minotaur's Sex Tips for Slash Writers?
http://www.squidge.org/~minotaur/classic/eroc.html

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Date: 2008-12-08 06:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com
I can't really answer any of your questions, just give some of my own thoughts. I read a ton of TW fan fic and I've never read any slash before and I'm not a gay man. So I don't know about fan fic in other fandoms or the reality of gay male sex. But my own impression is that TW fan fic is overwhelmingly written by young straight women, some extremely young. So...there's that tendency towards romanticizing and heteronormative stuff and copying other fics. The stuff you're talking about doesn't bother me except for the scissoring thing, which sounds too clinical. If anything, there's too much lube, I agree. My main issue is that people put Jack and Ianto in some gay heaven where no one is homophobic and Ianto has absolutely no issues with being with a man (and usually people make Jack his first man - although my personal preference isn't that at all). I often wish there was some acknowledgement of reality on that front. I'd be curious as to how the depiction of the way they have sex compares to the reality of gay men.

Date: 2008-12-08 06:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cionaudha.livejournal.com
in some gay heaven where [...] Ianto has absolutely no issues with being with a man

Good point. Ianto isn't casual about anything.

Particularly since their relationship began with him whoring himself to Jack, I would imagine that his experience of gay sex was at first a bit fraught, to say the least.

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Date: 2008-12-08 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] smirnoffmule.livejournal.com
I absolutley love hot porn that contains no anal. Seriously, imagination is all. There's so much other exciting stuff you can be doing, but anal penetration seems to be considered the goal, the point, the holy grail of every m/m encounter. Which it just isn't, and IMHO honestly gets rather boring, especially when every encounter is so formulaic. Now don't get me wrong, I can totally get down with a good bit of buttfucking, but I want it to feel real, not one in the mangina.

As for whether these are general slash things, yes they generally are, though the one-two-three fingers seems to be pracically compulsory in TW fic, whereas elsewhere it's simply common.

If it's more of a general slash thing, is that just the heterosexuality and possible anal virginity of female authors shining through? Is that how women would like the backdoor to be approached if it's even approached at all? Am I just giving off way TMI by even mentioning that I think it's all so... delicate? I am, aren't I?

I think the heterosexuality and ass virginity is certainly a factor, and also some of these things just become fic memes - people learn to write fic from each other, emulate writers they enjoy, and so the more people who do it, the more it appears like it must actually be complusory.

Date: 2008-12-11 05:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kashiichan.livejournal.com
Off-topic, but I love that icon.

Date: 2008-12-08 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dvanulya.livejournal.com
Terribly fascinating discussions on LJ today, really.

Yeah, there's a lot of young women writing this stuff who have no real-life experience with the anal, and might freak the fuck out if they were ever presented with the opportunity.

Having been presented with the opportunity, however, I would say (along with someone else here - hello!) that physical preparation is nice, along with the mental. Keep the scissoring away, though.

*leaves to write a fic with nothing but frottage*
*with lube*
*and pudding*
*or perhaps pudding for lube?*
*is turning self on now*

Date: 2008-12-08 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mbs-library.livejournal.com
*ponders where [livejournal.com profile] dvanulya is going to post this fic* Just not chocolate pudding, please. I'm so sick of chocolate anything turning up in TW fic.

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Date: 2008-12-08 07:15 pm (UTC)
ext_14908: (Plot Device (starofthemorn))
From: [identity profile] venusinchains.livejournal.com
In my experience, all three of your points are very overdone in every slash fandom I've read. And I agree that it's probably very young straight female writers going with what they know (and what they know tends to be the internet-published works of other very young straight female writers). I try to skip most of those fics. Unfortunately, even the more original (and, I assume, older and more genuinely experienced) fic writers are guilty of same.

And some of it is a YMMV sort of thing, depending on the rest of the fic that the particular trope is showing up in. Fer instance, if a fic has been painfully specific in what's going on - a 'he inserted his first finger to the second digit and twisted it two degrees to the left' sort of fic - than no mention of lube would worry me. In a fic with a more generalized or emotional description of the action, I wouldn't be bothered. I prefer the later, but sometimes there's good reason to be gritty. :P

Date: 2008-12-08 07:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] forgiveninasong.livejournal.com
I try very hard (no pun intended) to try to avoid all forms of gaypr0n!cliche as much as possible. Torchwood isn't the first time I've written slashfic; I did it for a looong time in The Libertines fandom, both read, wrote and beta-d, so I know bad!fic when I see it. I don't read much of the stuff in Torchwood, because well...it's over-populated with teenagers who either a) don't have much of a good concept of how slash fic actually works, or b) their grammar in their INTRO for their story is so bad, I don't read. I've searched for a long time to find some epicly good Torchwood fics, and believe me, they're out there, but they usually involve some form of Pretty Ianto being hurt badly, and Jack being evil.

Date: 2008-12-08 07:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cionaudha.livejournal.com
There should be a questionnaire to go along with the author's note. And the first question ought to be:

Author has seen real live cock, Y/N.

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Date: 2008-12-08 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oneloveonelight.livejournal.com
I don't really know the answers to your questions either BUT, take for example, lesbian sex. Het men think lesbian sex is solely comprised of rug-munching and strap-ons. The reality is completely different. "The L-Word" series threw my husband for a loop; he was very surprised at how differently sex was depicted on that show versus what he sees in porn. And while The L Word is still a TV show and exaggerated in some ways, it's far more accurate than what you would see in "lesbian" porn since heterosexual men usually write the scripts for lesbian porn (although I use the term "scripts" and "lesbian" loosely in that case.).

So... I'm guessing, having never been a gay man myself, these slash fics are probably slightly off the mark at the very least since most are written by fangirls. Yeah.

Personally, I'm voting for more Janto frottage. *nods and raises hand*

Date: 2008-12-08 08:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cionaudha.livejournal.com
Personally, I'm voting for more Janto frottage.

Oh sweet baby Jesus yes, yes, YES.

Frot is hot. Smokin', burnin', flamin', ragin', rubbin' hot.

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Date: 2008-12-08 08:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kel-reiley.livejournal.com
Is it really too much to ask people to assume there's lubrication involved? Is it just me that assumes that there is?
gah! finally! no, it's not just you
already commented on the scissoring thing
lot of it is overly romantic, fans have to compensate for lack of ANY type of declaration for what their relationship actually is, of course
and next time you feel the urge to sit and read fic, i recommend this long series, but really good

Date: 2008-12-08 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mellacita.livejournal.com
*Seconds that recommendation*

I've given up on reading newly posted fic and just reread this one, seriously.

Date: 2008-12-08 08:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kelspots.livejournal.com
"Could you not do that? Your fingers smell like my butt."
THIS.

The thing that has been getting to me lately is that these two seem to be able to get it up again immediately after a mind-blowing orgasm (which they all are, obviously). If Ianto was 16, maybe MAYBE then this might be possible. Once in a while.

Date: 2008-12-08 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cionaudha.livejournal.com
these two seem to be able to get it up again immediately after a mind-blowing orgasm

It's easy. Alls you gotta do is stimulate that prostate immediately after orgasm, see? Or say something incredibly sexy. It's a no-boner brainer.

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Date: 2008-12-08 10:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
One day, maybe I'll get that fic where they have a cuddle afterwards and one of them strokes the other's hair and the other one says "Could you not do that? Your fingers smell like my butt."

Now that's the detail I wish more fic writers would pay attention to. And could I just add, "Euw".

"May I put my cock up your arse in a non-accidental fashion?"

*stifled giggles*

this-is-the-slash-equivalent-of-vaginal-intercourse

No! Surely not.

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Date: 2008-12-08 10:05 pm (UTC)
ext_41651: Ianto shiny with mobile (Default)
From: [identity profile] fide-et-spe.livejournal.com
There are some male writers who write great Jack/Ianto sex scenes. X Tricks, Holding off and Sam Storyteller all come to mind. I think some of the writers you are referring to should read them.

I work in sexual health, so talk to men a lot about sex, and some gay men have a lot of anal sex. However not all of them do, and I agree that the norm has become J/I doing it a lot. The scissoring fingers thing is ridiculous, although fingering is a very popular activity in and of itself, nothing wrong with that. I don't quite get why there is so much talk about preparation, why mention lube either? Surely the reader should fill in the gaps, and if they can't, well their problem.

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Date: 2008-12-09 12:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] travellingone.livejournal.com
All three points have been present in slash for ages. All you can do is laugh. A couple friends of mine and I once tried a few positions described in a fic and concluded that you needed to be double-jointed and possibly an octopus to accomodate the described positions.

Date: 2008-12-09 05:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tomkatt.livejournal.com
Ah... yes... and Jack needs a 15 inch willy to accommodate some positions described in some fics. The aforementioned willy must also be "L" shaped.

!

Date: 2008-12-09 01:07 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
As someone who's been in slash fandom going on 12 years myself, I say: it's pretty much the same in any and all fandoms. I've lurked in some, participated in some and probably written in say, six. I don't know where all my stories are because this is my fourth 'puter. Two died ugly deaths and one is a MS ME beheomoth on my desk that isn't compatible with this surf board.

My point? I've written it all - instant re-hard on, anal sex after eating a big supper, one-finger-two-finger-three-finger-dick, the whole enchilda. Every thing. Some of it bad. Real bad. But there was evolution. And I stopped writing the anal sex act about five years ago. I'd written it all, pretty much.

And it's the same in almost all fandoms, except what makes Torchwood different: The boyz actually kiss and there's the very real possibility of mPreg. It's canon. I know they kiss in other shows, i.e. the two QaF's, but this one is more accepted for whatever reason. And, frankly, IMO, QaF was just too soapy and whiny.

15 year old girls as boy/man sex writers - it's not all 15 year old girls writing boy/man sex badly. Some are quite adult women with very active fantasy lobes. They aren't willing or able to craft a good story, they write to suit themselves.

Anyhoo. It makes finding really, really good Torchwood fic all the sweeter, eh?

I'm a doof

Date: 2008-12-09 01:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wiley-nilly.livejournal.com
Sorry, that's me up there.

Date: 2008-12-09 01:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lefaym.livejournal.com
I prefer lube to be mentioned myself-- or at least something to indicate that they're preparing for penetration in some way. But I agree completely about the other two, and you're quite right that things other than anal sex should be explored (and I'm rather guilty of writing anal in the last two fics that I've written, although niether has been posted yet-- and in my defense, Ianto was the top in both of them).

Another thing that bothers me is that oral sex in TW is almost always deep-throating. Now, I can buy that Jack is probably capable of that, given that he's done just about everything, but even so, he wouldn't necessarily do it every time (particularly not when he isn't in a position to get his mouth and throat in a straight line), and besides that, I just don't find it that sexy-- my gag reflex starts acting up just reading about it! :P

Date: 2008-12-09 05:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tomkatt.livejournal.com
Scissoring????????????

yik squick...

yuk ug...

bleah ewww....

and yes,

OUCH!!!

....this message brought to you by Tomkatt and your friendly neighborhood gay agenda, now appearing nationwide to FAABULOUS reviews...

Date: 2008-12-09 05:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tomkatt.livejournal.com
Oh yes... one fic had anal sex in the evening followed with oral sex as a wake-me-up.

Not pretty...or hygienic.

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From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-12-12 02:20 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2008-12-09 06:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] totally4ryo.livejournal.com
I have a question, if you don't mind. Have you actually read lots of gay fiction -- as in walked into a gay bookstore and bought books and books of gay erotica written by men? I have for the last 30 years, and for two men in a loving relationship, it is the acceptable standard formula. Sure, us female writers somethings get a little flowery with descriptions. Then again so does some male authors. Find any book written by Gorden Merrick, and you'll see what I mean.
It's all about formulas -- sometimes you take a chance and write outside the box, but for the most part, you stick with a proven formula that's been used and works.

Gay erotica classics with loving relationships used it and it worked. Slash fanfic since the first Kirk/Spock fics mostly stick to it too (there may have been a Lone Ranger/Tonto fic somewhere before the Trek Slash). In all fandoms, for the last 30 years. Then we got yaoi, and once again, there's the formula? Is it any surprise it's part of Torchwood slash fanfic? I've been reading and writing slash fanfic for about three decades now (yes, I'm giving away my age here. LOL!), and I see the same formula, different couple through the years.

Maybe it's time to start coming up with new formulas. I don't know, but there's a history to overcome. 'Cause I'm not saying you're wrong with your thoughts -- just that the premise is far from original or unique to Torchwood, since even the gay erotica by males have prescribed by it. Oh, and yes, that also includes emphasis on buttsecks (Check out "How Long Has This Been Going On?" by Ethan Mordden for example).

The only thing that does bother me with some fanfic (but not all of it has this) is placing Jack and Ianto in stereotypical, what I call, seme and uke roles -- Jack usually the seme, and Ianto the uke. Yet I see them both as strong, equal men, so it's fun to mix up the loving and manhandling some. I really feel like I come across a treat when I find a fic with Dominant!Ianto, because he broke away from his mold. As did Jack when he becomes Dominant!Ianto's Submissive!Jack. Do I want all top Ianto tho? No. I like to see them take turns, and mix up the love play -- from tender and soft, to raunchy and kinky. Because they both seem like that type of men to me.

Date: 2008-12-09 09:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] o-melody-nelson.livejournal.com
"Your fingers smell like my bum."

I think I love you, a little bit, for writing this. It's really about time.

Also, I think you should be metaquoated.

Date: 2008-12-09 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com
I think the lube presentation problem is the idea that the sex was planned and not spontaneous. Kinda like having a condom in your hand when you kiss someone for the first time. Plus, I swear I can hear the wheezy *squack!* sound of a squeeze bottle.

Describing the sensation of it works, though.

It cracks me up that Jack always has a container of lube in his coat pocket. Car keys, lip balm, lube. Does he ever drop it when he's getting out a pen at the bank? "Excuse me, sir, I believe this Astroglide is yours."


Date: 2008-12-10 08:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aquila-star.livejournal.com
so funny that this comment made me lmao and when I looked up to see who this funny person was, I went, 'hey! I know her!'

*smooches you* gonna have to mention the astroglide in chat tomorrow. ;D

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] aquila-star.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-12-10 08:42 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2008-12-10 08:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aquila-star.livejournal.com
well, the lube thing isn't a problem for me, if there's no mention of any kind of help in the slick area, I wonder if I'm reading 14yo virgin fic. I like lube, lube is good.

what bothers me about anal scenes, and in every fandom I've read/wrote for, is the assumption that complete, thorough prep is needed every time. if Jack and Ianto were doing it as often as fanfic would have us believe, then more often than not, they'd need little to no prep. just lube. :D

and I don't wanna call down the sweet innocent hetero teenagers out there writing gay porn for fantasy's sake, hell, I'm all for the fantasy, but personal experience is made of win. and you don't really need another person. just lube. :P

also, I will be writing frot fic soon. cause frotting it hot, and imo, there's not enough of it in ANY fandom.

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