Jack scissored his fingers WHERE?

[tencrush]

Oh, alright then, I'll do a post about Jack, Ianto and anal sex. Elsewhere on my flist there's already a rant about the subject, but I still feel inspired enough to contribute my thoughts on the matter.


First off, let me just say that I read very little in the way of fic. I have these bouts of extreme boredom now and again, during which I'll suddenly read about ten fics, but that's about it. I've noticed, though, during these binges, that there seem to be some overused descriptions in Jack/Ianto fic (for that is what I'll usually read, and as I've said before, the main reason I do so is because sitting down to read a big splodge of fic in one go every four weeks or so gives one an interesting insight into the overriding themes that people seem to be thinking along, I find every so often, the angle at which fic writers approach a relationship like Jack/Ianto will change, due to new canon or speculation, and suddenly romance will be higher on the agenda, or the top will become the bottom, or some such thing) and, not being an avid reader, I wonder if these are specific to this relationship, or more general slash tropes, or what. Anyone who can tell me is more than welcome to do so.

• THE LUBRICATION COEFFICIENT. People are always complaining that there's not enough lube in bumseks fics. I find this weird, because it doesn't really bother me. I find that, unless specific mention is made of there NOT being lube involved, I usually just assume that it is, whether it's mentioned or not. Someone made mention of the overuse of the lube-bottle-cap-click sound effect in Jack/Ianto fic, I've noticed this, too, and it always strikes me as a fic author's way of obliquely mentioning the lube in in order to avoid the "WOT? NO LUBE?" comments that would inevitably follow if they didn't. Is this really such a problem for the reader? Is it really too much to ask people to assume there's lubrication involved? Is it just me that assumes that there is? I personally think there's TOO MUCH mention of lube in Jack/Ianto fics. That can't just be me. (And sometimes, the "Wot no lube?" question strikes me as such a terribly anal-virgin question to ask. Obviously there's lube involved. Or a fuck of a lot of precum. Either way, does it really matter enough to warrant a mention every single time?)


• THE UNBEARABLE TIGHTNESS OF BEING. The word "tight". Yeah, the arse, Jack or Ianto's, whichever you fancy, is a "tight hole". I won't dispute that in any way, though I must say that the mention of it being a tight hole always strikes me as a tad superfluous, and, in a way, such a terribly heterosexual observation. I mean, okay, it's tight, but dear God it's not that tight and a guy will only really say that it's tight because he's mentally comparing it to your vagina. Yeah it's tight. And hot. Hot and tight. "Tight heat", even. Yes, I get it already.


• THE FINGER-SCISSOR-COCK MANEUVRE. I have a myriad of problems with this particular preparatory procedure. The first being that its description is always so overly clinical, and I can never help picturing Jack frowning in concentration as if trying to undo the tricky nut up there that makes Ianto's arse unclench (And, yeah, I find it's usually Ianto on the receiving end of this one.) But mostly it's just the simple fact that nobody, not even the most virginal of arses, is so tight that they would require this much in the way of relaxation. Prep work for anal sex is mental, and does indeed involve relaxation, but that relaxation can be achieved in whatever way you fancy, because it's mental. It doesn't require that specific tenderising-a-steak thing that some authors seem to love so much. It's mental. Got it? And apart from anything else, and as has been pointed out by several people, you can't really scissor anything up there. It ain't that roomy, and I, personally, always find myself distracted by those scissoring fingers and where they end up going next. One day, maybe I'll get that fic where they have a cuddle afterwards and one of them strokes the other's hair and the other one says "Could you not do that? Your fingers smell like my butt."

Now all of these things have something in common in my mind, and it's why I wanted to bring them up. They all strike me as a bit het, and a touch romantic. The use of lube, the tight descriptors, the thorough and loving preparation involved, it all strikes me as the sort of thing involved when heterosexual couples finally breach that frontier of "May I put my cock up your arse in a non-accidental fashion?", and not really in character for a gay couple that are regularly fucking each other. (I'm not even going to go into the amount of anal sex that Jack and Ianto seem to have, as a percentage of the total sex-things that they do, because, again, it strikes me as worryingly high, and often seems to have a vibe of this-is-the-slash-equivalent-of-vaginal-intercourse-and-therefore-romantic about it) I could, of course, be entirely wrong, I'm not a gay couple, but there's just something off about it to me. My question, really, is, are these general slash things, or are they more prevalent in Jack/Ianto than they are elsewhere? Because the thing is, to me as a reader, Jack/Ianto fic tends to come across as overly vanilla and romantic, and these things are a part of that. Now given the fact that Jack and Ianto are canonically having sex, but canon is slightly more vague on their romantic attachment, I can well figure why this would be the case in this particular pairing, fic is the place where fans fill in the gaps in canon, after all, and as far as the sex goes, this canon's not particularly gappy. If it's more of a general slash thing, is that just the heterosexuality and possible anal virginity of female authors shining through? Is that how women would like the backdoor to be approached if it's even approached at all? Am I just giving off way TMI by even mentioning that I think it's all so... delicate? I am, aren't I?

Bum.

Comments

[offer-of-hope.livejournal.com]

I'll be back in a minute, having been through this in another fandom in which teh gai boiz took exception to the fanon use of the term "asslips."

[tencrush]

Asslips? I went to medical school and still I'm at a loss.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

And this is why I don't write pr0n. Ever.

[dividedloyalty.livejournal.com]

Your post had me in STITCHES hehehe THE UNBEARABLE TIGHTNESS OF BEING. LOL

But I do have a couple things to add.

First, the common-place you mentioned happens in any fandom. At least it happens in ALL the fandoms I read (which ok, they aren't too many, but still). I had this discussion a little while ago, and we decided it works in waves too, like a domino effect: one author uses an expression, you get that expression for the next couple months.

Second, well. The people that write slash stories are mostly women, and a large part of them so young they don't really have the experience on the subject. I truly believe they learned from fanfiction, so they are probably using the knowledge they aquired from another 14 year old girl... the cycle is endless lol.

Cheers!

[offer-of-hope.livejournal.com]

You and the rest of the universe. Winking asslips.

[mslauren2930.livejournal.com]

this is why I read only a select few writers and mock the rest from time to time in my LJ. there is just waaaaaaaay too much bad pr0n out there.

One day, maybe I'll get that fic where they have a cuddle afterwards and one of them strokes the other's hair and the other one says "Could you not do that? Your fingers smell like my butt." - someday I am writing a purposely bad fic for a friend of mine and I am so using this as the ending. :D

[tencrush]

LOL, I really am such a n00b when it comes to fic reading, I have no experience in the field whatsoever. I still like to believe that not all fanfic is written by 15-year-old virgins, but I really should know better, I suppose.

[dividedloyalty.livejournal.com]

Well, they say fandom isn't a teen fest...

I just really don't believe it. :)

After reading so many physiological impossibilities that are used as 'totally trufax sex facts', I can't believe otherwise.

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

All very common slash tropes in any fandom. Probably since the Kirk/Spock days. Most people who write slash fiction have likely not had the experience of a cock up their ass, so they follow the leader.

Lots of slash fic is heteronormative. Anal sex = full connection, trumpets, true love. After all, blow jobs, frottage, wanking, cigars, etc are not real sex. And real sex is essential for couples to be really in love. And to make babies. Etc. Or something?

As for assuming there is lube...I dunno, when I read a fic with no mention of lube, I assume the writer is clueless (I have had to read about one to many self-lubing assholes), not that they assume we will know it is there because, well, duh. Glass half empty or half full sort of thing I guess?

As for preparation being mental, I do agree, but (er, tmi) I generally find physical preparation really important too. For me. I can't speak for Jack or Ianto. :P

[x-pixel-x.livejournal.com]

They're all sorta hallowed slash tropes, sorry to say.

The only one that really gets to me is extreme overemphasis on anal sex. It makes me cry after a while. This also seems to be more of an issue in TW, at least as opposed to my other main fandom at the moment. Blowjobs are FUN people, also handjobs, also lots of other things.....

Now I've got the urge to run off to the bookstore and start reading the gay erotica and see how the boys write it.

[tencrush]

They do seem to have way too much anal to me, and as mellacita says, I wonder if that's a heteronormative anal=vaginal=connection=love thing that perhaps in this particular pairing is the canon question that fic is adressing because of the general confusion as to the extent of their romantic attachment?

[seanchaidh.livejournal.com]

The fingers-scissor-cock thing has been around as long as I've been in fandom and slash fiction, which is a good 12 years now. Why? Probably someone put that in and others liked it and it spread like the plague. Have I used it? I think so, but I try for research. There used to be a good resource written by a gay man for slash writers, but the last time I checked, he hadn't updated in years. This, of course, implies that a writer research something s/he doesn't know... and oh dear god, there are so many people who don't. :( Sex or no sex.

[x-pixel-x.livejournal.com]

That's probably correct, which makes me kinda feel even more sad about the whole thing. "YAY lets substitute buttsex for emotional intimacy" (what I'm supposing the authors are getting at.)

Also. The talk of finger scissoring, now just makes me go "Bloodplay, ur doin it really really wrong...."

[alba17.livejournal.com]

I can't really answer any of your questions, just give some of my own thoughts. I read a ton of TW fan fic and I've never read any slash before and I'm not a gay man. So I don't know about fan fic in other fandoms or the reality of gay male sex. But my own impression is that TW fan fic is overwhelmingly written by young straight women, some extremely young. So...there's that tendency towards romanticizing and heteronormative stuff and copying other fics. The stuff you're talking about doesn't bother me except for the scissoring thing, which sounds too clinical. If anything, there's too much lube, I agree. My main issue is that people put Jack and Ianto in some gay heaven where no one is homophobic and Ianto has absolutely no issues with being with a man (and usually people make Jack his first man - although my personal preference isn't that at all). I often wish there was some acknowledgement of reality on that front. I'd be curious as to how the depiction of the way they have sex compares to the reality of gay men.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

Winking asslips.

*coffeespew*

That's the sort of thing I'd expect to see after a hit of acid.

[offer-of-hope.livejournal.com]

Couldn't make this up if my life depended on it. Seriously, the stories I could tell.

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

I absolutley love hot porn that contains no anal. Seriously, imagination is all. There's so much other exciting stuff you can be doing, but anal penetration seems to be considered the goal, the point, the holy grail of every m/m encounter. Which it just isn't, and IMHO honestly gets rather boring, especially when every encounter is so formulaic. Now don't get me wrong, I can totally get down with a good bit of buttfucking, but I want it to feel real, not one in the mangina.

As for whether these are general slash things, yes they generally are, though the one-two-three fingers seems to be pracically compulsory in TW fic, whereas elsewhere it's simply common.

If it's more of a general slash thing, is that just the heterosexuality and possible anal virginity of female authors shining through? Is that how women would like the backdoor to be approached if it's even approached at all? Am I just giving off way TMI by even mentioning that I think it's all so... delicate? I am, aren't I?

I think the heterosexuality and ass virginity is certainly a factor, and also some of these things just become fic memes - people learn to write fic from each other, emulate writers they enjoy, and so the more people who do it, the more it appears like it must actually be complusory.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

in some gay heaven where [...] Ianto has absolutely no issues with being with a man

Good point. Ianto isn't casual about anything.

Particularly since their relationship began with him whoring himself to Jack, I would imagine that his experience of gay sex was at first a bit fraught, to say the least.

[off_coloratura]

Pardon me while I vomit ALL DAY.

[dvanulya.livejournal.com]

Terribly fascinating discussions on LJ today, really.

Yeah, there's a lot of young women writing this stuff who have no real-life experience with the anal, and might freak the fuck out if they were ever presented with the opportunity.

Having been presented with the opportunity, however, I would say (along with someone else here - hello!) that physical preparation is nice, along with the mental. Keep the scissoring away, though.

*leaves to write a fic with nothing but frottage*
*with lube*
*and pudding*
*or perhaps pudding for lube?*
*is turning self on now*

[dvanulya.livejournal.com]

Some Gay Heaven: That should be an REM song. Or maybe it is?

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

In my experience, all three of your points are very overdone in every slash fandom I've read. And I agree that it's probably very young straight female writers going with what they know (and what they know tends to be the internet-published works of other very young straight female writers). I try to skip most of those fics. Unfortunately, even the more original (and, I assume, older and more genuinely experienced) fic writers are guilty of same.

And some of it is a YMMV sort of thing, depending on the rest of the fic that the particular trope is showing up in. Fer instance, if a fic has been painfully specific in what's going on - a 'he inserted his first finger to the second digit and twisted it two degrees to the left' sort of fic - than no mention of lube would worry me. In a fic with a more generalized or emotional description of the action, I wouldn't be bothered. I prefer the later, but sometimes there's good reason to be gritty. :P

[mbs-library.livejournal.com]

*ponders where dvanulya is going to post this fic* Just not chocolate pudding, please. I'm so sick of chocolate anything turning up in TW fic.

[alba17.livejournal.com]

How do you feel about cranberry sauce? (Srsly. And do they eat cranberry sauce in the UK?) And ditto the query on dvanulya's non-anal, lube and pudding-filled fic.

[forgiveninasong.livejournal.com]

I try very hard (no pun intended) to try to avoid all forms of gaypr0n!cliche as much as possible. Torchwood isn't the first time I've written slashfic; I did it for a looong time in The Libertines fandom, both read, wrote and beta-d, so I know bad!fic when I see it. I don't read much of the stuff in Torchwood, because well...it's over-populated with teenagers who either a) don't have much of a good concept of how slash fic actually works, or b) their grammar in their INTRO for their story is so bad, I don't read. I've searched for a long time to find some epicly good Torchwood fics, and believe me, they're out there, but they usually involve some form of Pretty Ianto being hurt badly, and Jack being evil.