In which I tl;dr about Torchwood again. About bloody time, too.

[tencrush]

So... it transpires that James Moran wrote the BBCA Captain's Blogs. Interesting. And when I say "interesting", I mean, of course, "weird". I have in the past accused the blogs of having been written by a gushing demented 15-year-old fangirl. So, either James Moran is secretly a gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl, or James Moran has cynically pandered to the gushing, demented 15-year-old fangirl in all of us. I mean, it's either one or the other, right? I WISH I COULD TALK TO JAMES MORAN RIGHT NOW, SERIOUSLY.

My problem with the Captain's Blogs, which I've expressed on numerous occasions, is the way they are in many instances, completely at odds with what we've been shown on screen when it comes to the Jack/Ianto relationship. And on one level, it's kind of heartening to know that they're the product of the production team, because it means that all that shizzle that we've been talking about all these months, all those interpretations (because that's what they are, let's face it) we have of there being more to Jack/Ianto than handjobs in the hub, there being more depth to it than the shallow sexxings and innuendo we've been unambiguously shown, are supported by at least some sort of opinion by someone on the team somewhere, that yes, there is more to this relationship that the stuff they've chosen to show. It shows promise for the future, right? But, then again, there's the cynical aspect of the whole thing, that aspect that has got up a few people's noses. I guess the question really is, WERE THEY PANDERING TO US?

Well, there's a few possibilities, the first, of course being that James Moran just ships Jack and Ianto. James Moran, personally, is a fan of the relationship and wants to see it played out in the way the blogs play it out. Now, that possibility is all well and good, but if that's the case then it brings me back to the point I have made countless times before about Torchwood, which is that there is no-one in charge. Nobody is taking it upon themselves to make sure all the writers are on the same page when it comes to the interpersonal relationships on the show and it makes for a mess in the area of character continuity. It just doesn't work to let one writer play up Jack/Gwen, and the next Jack/Ianto completely randomly, because all it serves to do at the end of the day is make everybody look bad. Gwen looks like an insensitive slut, Jack looks like a fickle spacewhore and Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you). So, yeah, if James ships Jack/Ianto, good for him, a lot of us do, and if that's all it is, then that's fine, but somebody, somewhere, please bear in mind that evidently not all the writers do. And that's hella confusing for those of us watching.

Now the second, and I would hope more plausible, possibility is that James Moran was writing to some sort of brief from up above. But that brings a whole different can of worms to the table and they're just as unpleasant as the other worms (the other worms, up there, which I hadn't yet mentioned, but let's just assume there was a metaphor about worms involved somehow in the first possibility and move along, yeah?) Because that implies first of all that the powers that be were all too aware that they were showing the Jack/Ianto relationship, on screen, in a rather superficial light, because let's face it, of all the interactions we could have been shown between Jack and Ianto, we all agree that perhaps one or two sexual innuendoes should have been dropped in favour of even the vaguest hint that these two have some sort of emotional connection along the lines of the one the blog seems to be telling us they have. Now this brings up an interesting question, which is, when exactly were these blogs written? Because it could quite easily be the case that the blogs were written at a very late date, at a time when negative fan reaction was already starting to filter through, or at least at a time when positive reaction and the popularity of the Jack/Ianto relationship were becoming more clear to the production team, more clear, at least, than at the scripting and shooting stages of season 2. So was James Moran briefed to play catch-up in what the production team realised was a rather too ambiguous portrayal of a relationship the fanbase was rallying around? It's possible. And if so, yeah, you could call that pandering, but at least it's not cynical pandering, right? It's the kind of pandering that makes us fans feel kind of smug and good about ourselves because it tells us that someone's listening. And that promises great things for the future. Cool.

The other possibility though, the other worm in the can, if you will, is that Moran was briefed to add this layer to the relationship purely because the powers that be had no intention of going into it on screen. Now that's cynical pandering. That's the having your cake and eating it scenario and it's the one most people fear is the case. And that fear is reasonably justified, I feel. I mean, here's a team of writers and producers and whatnot who are perfectly happy to take Jack out of Torchwood, plonk him back into Who, rewind his character by a couple of years and turn him back into an omnisexual spaceslut who'll come onto anything with a pulse, despite having had him develop on Torchwood for two years into a man who seems, from what we can gather from the text, reasonably romantic, more than capable of monogamy and a person who places a huge emphasis on protecting those he loves. Not the kind of guy who just leaves you in the Hub with a bunch of Daleks, because hey, you guys can take care of yourselves, right? I'm taking the big gun, smoke me a kipper, helloooo there Sarah Jane. That sort of thing. These are the people we're dealing with here. The people who didn't bat an eyelid when the script said Owen, the guy who's been a doctor for at least five years that we know of, was 27 years old. The sort of people who from our fannish perspective, just don't seem to think twice about the bigger picture they're painting. Or at least once more (bonus points for the reference, peeps, just seeing if you're still paying attention, I realise this is all getting a bit tl;dr.) I hate to break it to the powers that be, but this last scenario is one that a lot of people wouldn't put past you in the slightest. I'm just sayin', you know?

What do I think? I think it's a little bit from columns A, B and C. I think the big problem Torchwood suffers from, and it's one I've had a bit of time to think about, is that they just don't quite know where they want to go with Jack. He was an omnisexual whore, but they've realised that that's just a bit too much of a whoreish thing for the romantic lead of a show to be(especially one that you've touted as such a sexually liberated icon, it gives the impression that sexual liberation=sluttiness and that looks bad and isn't what they meant). But giving him a romantic relationship that's anything more than casual kind of takes away his appeal as a 51st century happy-go-lucky player type, and it bogs him down as a character with nowhere to go. In making Jack our hero, they're kind of stuck now between a rock and a hard place. I sympathise, and I think it's a hard dilemma to resolve. What I do know, though, is that trying to approach him, and his relationship with Ianto, from all angles at once, trying to cover all the bases and please everyone, isn't the solution, and that's an approach a lot of people thought the Captain's Blogs were symptomatic of. I wasn't convinced that Rusty and co. were in the business of trying to please everyone, but, having seen Rose and Handy snog in the sunset in Journey's End, I'm no longer so sure about that one. There's having a cake, there's eating it, and then there's eating every pastry based snack in the whole damned shop.

Comments

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

Excellent essayette (if it wasn't a word before it is now).

'...there is no-one in charge. Nobody...'
Oh absolutely. It seems like some writers want Jack/Ianto and others want Jack/Gwen. I seem to remember the writer of Meat saying that she saw Jack and Gwen as an unrequited love story.

'I wasn't convinced that Rusty and co. were in the business of trying to please everyone, but, having seen Rose and Handy snog in the sunset in Journey's End, I'm no longer so sure about that one.'
Yeah, it really seems like they want to please everyone, and when that happens nobody is pleased. I really wouldn't put it past them.

[melody2tds.livejournal.com]

See, I don't think that writer would be at all off base calling Jack/Gwen an unrequited love story. Although, I'd probably describe it more like mutual unfulfilled crushing. That wouldn't sound as romantic to a writer, though.
It's not like that interp takes anything away from Jack/Ianto, either.
There's more than enough evidence that Jack and Gwen had feelings for each other, but it's obvious than neither was ever in a position to act on the feelings. Both emotionally, and due to previous experiences/committments.
I still love my ex, who now has a wife and three year old, and he loves me right back. That doesn't mean either of us wants to get back together. It just means that loving someone doesn't always go away completely, even when you've moved on in life.
Jack and Gwen can both legitimately love Ianto and Rhys respectively, without the fact that they were attracted to each other having any bearing.
I still get the impression watching Something Borrowed that we were meant to understand that they were both letting go of the attraction. The rest of the season even bore out that impression in their interactions. It was that point in a friendship-that-could-have-been-more where you decide not to pursue it for whatever reason, and start letting the feelings you have morph into something else. In this case, a more familial-style affection.

So, yeah. semi-OT to tencrush's point, but it's how I saw the whole Ianto/Jack/Gwen/Rhys love-square thingy resolving over the course of the season. I think they did intend to be ambiguous to a certain extent, but it resolved a little too neatly by the end to have been completely accidental.

I think the writers had to deal with the fact that in the first season their originally intended main ship got hijacked, and sent careening off in another direction. I don't think they did that bad of a job, either. I still maintain that the major issue is more to do with the akward romantic chemistry between Eve and John than the actual writing.

[melody2tds.livejournal.com]

I call Fragments-style retcon on the blogs. They were written for BBCAm something like a year after the first season aired in the UK, right? So, I'm guessing that part of the point was to make the Jack/Ianto relationship have more context than the tiny amount of screen time it got, since they'd decided to follow through with it in the second season. Then the blogs for the second season just continued the trend of giving light background, and filling in the bits we didn't get to see.

So, I do think it was deliberate, but not in a pandering way. It's just meant to be supplemental for those who choose to follow along.

I think James IS a Janto shipper....

[(Anonymous)]

...there's a bit in his blog where he discusses the TW finale, and how he gets to pump "the thing that Captain Jack pumped"....and "I pumped it good". Sounds like he's got a crush.

Maybe he just finds Janto hot?

[lemiserabelle.livejournal.com]

I think you've hit all of the nails on their respective heads. You've built yourself a house, or rather, a ship.

I agree with everything you've said, and I must say that it's refreshing to know that someone else is thinking about this from a critical standpoint, rather than just a fannish one. Jack/Ianto is my OTP, but I don't want it at the expense of continuity and character development. I wish the writers and producers could read this, but I've a feeling that Davies is too stuck on himself to care.

The only character they seem interested in really developing is Gwen, and even her scenes are very one-dimensional. I rewatched Sleeper the other day and found myself wishing that Moran (and the whole crew) had written fewer repetitive "GWEN CARES A LOT" scenes. If they'd cut just a few of those, they would have time to use the other characters, particularly Tosh and Ianto. Like Beth's husband, Tosh found out that someone she cared about was going to betray her, and the combination of kind-human/destructive-alien reminds me of Lisa. I would like to see how Ianto felt about the Beth situation, and how his views have changed since he acknowledged that Lisa couldn't be saved.

There is so, so much potential in this show. If Torchwood had a more talented team of writers, it could be brilliant.

Confession: I like most of the fanfic better than cannon. And a significant portion of it is of higher quality than the episodes themselves. *ducks rocks*

[jbs-teeth.livejournal.com]

Nope, I totally agree with you and thought the exact same thing myself. I'd rather read a new sam_storyteller story or a new installment from invisible_lift than see a new episode. I'm not actually exaggerating about that.

Of course, as demotu has pointed out on numerous occassions, the fanfic probably wouldn't be so good and so interesting without so many holes to try to fill with logic and emotional growth. So, if the writers got better, I bet the fic would get worse.

[jbs-teeth.livejournal.com]

Yep; you see, this is exactly why I've always been very happy to let everyone in the fandom make their own interpretation of what's going on in Jantoland, and why I get more than a little irritated with the folks who INSIST their opinion is "right." There is no "right," because there is no answer. Previously, I would have said that only because it was his show, RTD could definitively say something one way or the other, and I'd have believed him. But now, with his departure, there is no authority. Moffat can assert himself by insisting on a show bible and a multi-season arc, but as of the moment, there is no fact, only interpretation.

And yes, they have written themselves into a corner with Jack, but judging from every other episode of Who and TW, no one's concerned with logic anyway. So just pick a starting point, for gods sake, and let him grow.

Basically, they need to stop being a bunch of pussies about everything. Don't make a popular show, make a good fucking show, and commit to your POV.

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

As for talking to him, you could always try commenting on his blog... He replied twice when I asked (critical) questions after Sleeper, which mostly is the reason why I haven't commented about the Captain's Blog (although I am kind of tempted), I feel I've made myself obnoxious enough already...

[cen-evans.livejournal.com]

First off, very good essayette. Definitely need to make that an official word. *g*

I've met James Moran at a convention, and may I say, he is not only talented but very brave. He sat at a table full of teenage fangirls (most cosplaying) and devoted most of his saturday night to listening to us babble and read from John Barrowman's autobiography. I know I might have mentioned that a lot of people ship Jack/Ianto. Several times.

So yeah, I agree with melody2tds, the Jack/Ianto in the blogs was deliberate, but it's the direction they decided to take the season in. Hopefully they keep taking it in that direction!

[kaimu.livejournal.com]

Well, James Moran has admitted to lurking in OG, and following fan-blogs, also a lot of questions fans had about plot holes (what was Jack doing between leaving in LotTL and appearing in KKBB?) so a little bit of non-cynical pandering is obviously going on. Along with the ‘fell behind on the archive notes as a response to people wondering why the blog hadn’t been updated’.
I tend to think the writers were very excited about Jack/Gwen at the start, and really wanted to build towards it and Ianto was just to remind the viewers that Jack’s attracted to men as well. Problem was there was wonky romantic chemistry between Eve and John, and Kai and Gareth proved to be better actors and they wanted to keep them on.
So since the Captain’s Blogs were for BBCA, they decided to use those to supplement the Jack/Ianto relationship, and build it up in preparation for series 2 and later, but they still wanted to finish up the Jack/Gwen story-line they had originally invested themselves in. So hence the weird love polygon.

[foreverrhapsody.livejournal.com]

*curious* What was the answer to the 'what was Jack doing between leaving in LotTL and KKBB?' question? I think I missed that somewhere...

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I found the blogs quite sickening when compared to what we saw in the actual show. They're just not on the same wave-length at all.

I still stand by the fact that the biggest problem with the Jack/Ianto relationship is that Jack and Ianto themselves are not on an equal footing. Not only do the writers give Jack a relationship with Ianto, they also continue to give him sexual tension with other characters, most notibly Gwen and Captain John. Jack also continues to have a strong attachment to the Doctor.

Ianto's stuck with only Jack, which of course is going to make it seem like Ianto has a greater investment in their relationship than Jack does.

I still hold the view that, unless their relationship is actually going to go somewhere in S3, I'd rather see it droped all together. At least this way, the writers will have to give Ianto some storylines that have nothing to do with his half-hearted relationship with Jack.

[kaimu.livejournal.com]

Personally I tend to think the writers rushed too much on trying to establish Jack and romantic relationships with Ianto, Gwen, and even John.

By giving him 3 ongoing love interests they limited the stories they could tell. They can't do anything like CJH, or even his relationship with Estelle in Small Worlds, without making him seem like an insensitive opportunistic bastard.

If they wanted to do a one-episode romance, or even a 5-episode story arc with romance, their future choices are very limited.

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem is that in S1 they had a good bit of character development going on, and then in S2 they decided it was too dark, retconned the hell out of the whole thing, and didn't bother to stop and think about what they did next. Owen as 27 at death was part of that, but the implication from Fragments that Toshiko was at most 27-28? Please.

They don't need something written in stone--that would have nixed Janto from the word go, despite the onscreen clickage between JB and GDL or EM and KO--but they do need a rough draft form AND a good proofreader AND somebody to tell them where to go when things get too weird.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'but they do need a rough draft form AND a good proofreader AND somebody to tell them where to go when things get too weird.'
So what your saying is; they basically need a Beta? Which would be a great idea!

[pontisbright.livejournal.com]

Wordy McWorderson. Especially on the whole absence of bible/godlike showrunner/decree from on high that THIS is how we're playing it. It lends the whole show an air of amateurism that it doesn't deserve (and can't afford, given the fact that we have uneven tone and genre shifts to deal with amidst the lack of consistent characterisation). And ffs, guys, you're doing the out gay couple in canon thing? Don't fuck that up, k? Because that's a big deal, and either you go for it or you don't, but it's probably the one and only plotline you shouldn't get coy or ambiguous or 'we don't want to confuse the casual viewer' about, because it has wider impact than that. You can have a Gay Agenda. You can be proud of it. But you don't get to be proud of it if you want to also pretend it's not there half the time.

The meandering representation of Jack really reminds me of Obi-Wan in the Star Wars prequels. One minute he's 'wahey, I'm Ewan McGregor, international spacewhore: check out my lightwang, bitches!' and the next he's the beardy sensible bore who's seen too much to muck about with the chilluns. I get that it's a challenge, bouncing him between the shows, keeping him from becoming static, avoiding losing everything we ever liked about him in the first place (which is the area I think they tried to remedy most obviously in S2, but which is hard if they also want him to be in a relationship...) - but really, if it's getting reminiscent of George Lucas, something is deeply wonky.

[tencrush]

And ffs, guys, you're doing the out gay couple in canon thing? Don't fuck that up, k? Because that's a big deal, and either you go for it or you don't, but it's probably the one and only plotline you shouldn't get coy or ambiguous or 'we don't want to confuse the casual viewer' about, because it has wider impact than that. You can have a Gay Agenda. You can be proud of it. But you don't get to be proud of it if you want to also pretend it's not there half the time.
Mmmm. *nods* It's one of the reasons we fannish ones get so pissy with TPTB, especially, like I said, given the fact that they seem to spend half their time smugly patting themselves on the back about how boundary-pushing and liberal they are. Walk the fucking walk, then, bitches and stop being so fucking coy about it. Grrrrr.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that the blogs aren't all that inconsistent! After all they are just light banter. There is no I wuv you, or any other declarations. To suggest Ianto handcuffs Jack is hardly the most romantic thing. I have always enjoyed them as a lighthearted little filler. I really don't think they are meant to be any more than that.

I always enjoy your views, but I just don't think these blogs are very serious. I can see that those obsessed with Gwen/Jack may get upset, because the one thing I think they say, is that Jack/Ianto is played out off screen. To me RTD's writing in DW this season said exactly the same thing.

I also think it would have been awful to have Jack shag a different character every week, it would have been James T Kirk only worse, as that was the 60's when it was a new idea, now he would just seem like a sleazy git. They clearly knew that, and I think have come up with a nice way of dealing with it.

I'm pretty sure that you are British? It just seems to me that British crime/sci fi drama often deals with relationships like this. Even characters that are married etc, in crime dramas it is mostly a background thing, and not really ever given much time. Only soaps go into depth with relationships. I don't really think there has ever been that much Jack/Gwen, it can be read in so many ways, father/daughter, friendship, or crush. Certainly the irritating googly eyes seemed to stop altogether after the wedding, and were totally absent from DW.

[tencrush]

"I held onto Ianto for a few hours, as tightly as I could"??? That's not inconsistent with the onscreen relationship that couldn't even manage a hug after the events of Exit Wounds??? I really do beg to differ, sorry.

I'm not complaining about Jack/Gwen, I'm complaining about inconsistency in the storytelling and a general lack of direction. (And no, I'm Dutch.)

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

As a vocal and avid anti-J/I shipper, my most fervid prayer is for pandering, especially regarding the horror of the post "Adrift" blog. I still find it nauseating and I would hope the fanbase would be offended as well. Is that really who you think Jack is? Is that really the relationship between J/I that you want? (Was that the Jack you saw as soon as the Doctor was anywhere to be heard or seen?)

I know I'm risking wankery by even commenting on this, but you and I have been through these issues before and even though we pretty vociferously disagree about much of, I feel we can have a sort of reasonable discussion.

So, yeah, if James ships Jack/Ianto, good for him, most of us do

Define most and define us? Yes in certain places, not so much in others. This is an opposing view-point and we are not as
marginal as some of the comms make us look .

[tencrush]

Yeah, alright, that should say "a lot of us". I'll edit it.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I have to see Jack/Ianto as something of a serious relationship because, to me, the alternative is that Jack is being (to Ianto in any case and on some level to Gwen) a manipulative dickhead, and I just can't deal with the idea of watching a show that is primarily about a manipulative dickhead and his gappy-toothed, dimwitted, screechy sidekick. That's not a show I'd watch. (I'll say this again as well, I don't particularly ship them, I'm not hugely emotionally invested in the relationship, I don't really ship anyone, I'm not much of a shipper, on the whole.)

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

I've recently introduced a friend to Torchwood, and after watching all of S2 in one day, I asked her non-fandom influenced opinion of Jack/Ianto. She said she thought it was very sweet, she had the impression that they both passionate about each other, but that they weren't in a monogamous TWU WUV relationship. I was very careful not to push Jack/Ianto as my favourite ship while we were watching it-- I didn't offer any opinion on the pairing until after she'd watched every TW ep.

Obviously she's not the only person in the world, but I think that her impression of the ship lines up pretty well with what we've seen in the Captain's Blog. Personally, I don't see why so many people seem to think that either they must be in a very conventional relationship, because otherwise Jack is just using poor Woobie!Ianto for sex. I've not seen any evidence on the show that (a) Ianto is unhappy or feels "used", or (b) that they're in a conventional-style relationship. I don't think it's an either/or thing.

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

OR it could be that they're telling a story about complicated grown-ups who have complicated emotional lives in 50 minutes a week with most of the time having to be taken up with other plots.

Yep. That would do it.

Abso bloody lutely

[(Anonymous)]

As per my post above about British drama, it's the way they do it always when the story is about crime or sci fi, and not about relationships as the primary focus. Midsomer Murders has been going 13 years, and there have been about two scenes ever of the main character and his wife even cuddling, yet they are blatantly happy, and she features every episode. It's just not the main story, that's all.

[halfspokenwords.livejournal.com]

I agree. Even though most of this comment sounds like I am arguing, I do actually agree-- I tend to think that with Torchwood, any cohesiveness in characterization is accidental.

Personally, with the above caveat, I don't see the onscreen depiction of Jack/Ianto as too much of a problem, because we've seen primarily work-related interaction. But we know they do spend time together out of working hours-- they have to-- and to me that is where the Captain's Blog fits in.

In fact, to be honest, I tend to see the Jack/Ianto relationship much the same way the Captain's Blog describes-- yes, down to Jack being free to cling to Ianto for a few hours. I don't think that interpretation has been negated by anything we've shown onscreen, but unfortunately it hasn't truly been supported either.

I'd like very much to see it. I would have loved something after Out of the Rain, when instead Jack was ominous and oblivious. Or Exit Wounds, which had Gwen/Rhys and a complete absence of Jack and Ianto.

There are many hints as to what their relationship is or isn't. The date scene and Jack's nervousness, the dynamics of the flirting in Sleeper, the convo in TtLM, the fondness of the forehead-kiss in Adam, the "it's not like that, me and Jack" in DitD, the dance in SB... I like this list quite a bit, but in the grand scheme of things they're really just hints. We've gotten no real glimpse at what Jack and Ianto do when they're not onscreen, except have sex.

It wouldn't be so noticable or problematic if Gwen didn't get coupley, domestic scenes with Rhys. That's the problem, IMO. I'm glad Torchwood isn't just about the main characters romantic exploits, but... there are two main relationships, and when it comes to getting a look at the team's personal lives, it's only the same-sex couple that's getting ignored. It's why it seems like it's being presented as superificial.

I'm not sure whether that's what they were going for or not. Maybe it was, or maybe they just aren't willing to show the softer moments. It does make it very frustrating, as I'm sure you're aware.

You're right, too, that a great deal of the problem is that TPTB haven't decided what to do with Jack, but I think it's also they haven't figured out what to do with Ianto. We haven't even seen his flat! He got his own personal episode and we found out more about him in Gwen's wedding episode! In Fragments, they fleshed out his backstory primarily with things we already knew. So, yeah, one ambiguous person in a couple is fine, especially if it's a character like Jack. But two is kind of ridiculous.

I hope that made some sense! I admit to being a fan of Jack/Ianto, so I hope this doesn't sound too biased or skewed.

[wicca-faith-fi.livejournal.com]

i like your comment - i think it's very true. And I think that if the relationships were shown equally then maybe not so man Jack/Ianto fans or Ianto fans would have a problem with Gwen, because I like her wehn she is with Rhys and the FEW interactions with Ianto, and I even liked her as a mate with Jack in Adam and To The Last Man.
x

[wicca-faith-fi.livejournal.com]

you are son right - and so funny! i think I'll read this again when I am actually awake. But I love;

Gwen looks like an insensitive slut, Jack looks like a fickle spacewhore and Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you).

[cirrocumulus.livejournal.com]

Ianto looks like a trodden-upon boytoy who just takes it (in the ass, yes I know you were thinking it, well done, you)

This made me LOL entirely too hard.


I agree with all of what you said. I myself think it's probably mostly the result of James Moran being a Jack/Ianto fan and not so much the result of any devious planning from TPTGB. Mainly because of all the fans that watch the show, only a fairly small fraction probably read the BBCA Captain's Blogs at all, so using them to appease the fanbase with Jack/Ianto doesn't really make sense because it would still leave the sizeable portion of the fans that don't read the Blog wanting more Jack/Ianto. I myself am determined to be optimistic and hope for some more serious Jack/Ianto development on the show just because it's too painful to be cynical. And we've had no real indication either way about where they plan to direct the relationship now.

Also, on the Jack/Gwen front, I have the feeling that that's basically done after "Something Borrowed." "Adrift" had a lot of scenes where Jack and Gwen interacted but I didn't see ANY Jack/Gwen in it, so I think that's a good sign. I think at this point the writers have basically realized that there isn't much to get from pursuing that relationship.

[urnssadomen.livejournal.com]

"Mainly because of all the fans that watch the show, only a fairly small fraction probably read the BBCA Captain's Blogs at all, so using them to appease the fanbase with Jack/Ianto doesn't really make sense because it would still leave the sizeable portion of the fans that don't read the Blog wanting more Jack/Ianto."

Oh, if you are obsessed enough about this ship, YOU WILL find the blog. >o

[astuta.livejournal.com]

I'm personally a little tired of the fanwank. To me the captains blog is the by product of a writer hunted down by fangirls that just happens to be a shipper himself. And while I really like what they say, and enjoy them very much, I tend to discard them. Cannon should be the show itself, unless the producers/writers say otherwise.

Now, I think Jack is serious about his relationship with Ianto and while a lot of people think that Jack leaving in "The Stolen earth" made him an uncaring bastard, I just thought it was what he had to do.

I actually resent that people expect Jack to be there protecting them like Ianto and Gwen are helpless pups. They are Torchwood and they have to take care of themselves. Maybe is because I don't really watch DW and to me Daleks are not that "scary" and I think they should be able to fend for themselves, and if not die trying. The only thing that pissed me off is that Torchwood doesn't have any better guns that machine guns. That was just plain stupid.

And I don't think Jack was that slutty in DW (this season). He flirted with Sara Jane, yes, and made the comment about "the doctors" but nothing really came out of it. Not only that, but Ianto acting jealous and putting Jack in his place was hilarious.

I do have to agree that continuity is non-existent, specially with the characters relationships. Not only that, but the show is the Jack - Gwen show. They just don't use any other characters to lead the episodes. Even "From out of the Rain" was supposed to be Gwen investigation, but Eve was busy filming "Adrift", so they used Ianto instead. I personally don't see why they don't use him more, since he is full of opportunities as a character. To most people he is recognizable for funny one-liners and shagging Jack, which completely pissess me off. I rather have him single and developed than Jack chew toy.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'To most people he is recognizable for funny one-liners and shagging Jack, which completely pissess me off. I rather have him single and developed than Jack chew toy.'
Yeah, that irritates me too. Ianto has so much potential as a character and I'm sure Gareth would do a great job with heavy emotional scenes (Adam and Fragments proved that to me). I really hope they use him more in series 3.

'I don't really watch DW and to me Daleks are not that 'scary'...'
The Old!Who Daleks are much scarier; now they use them so much as the evil of the week that they're just a joke. You'd think Ianto would have had a contingency plan; the Daleks were at Canary Wharf.

[ceresi.livejournal.com]

Sorry if you've heard this before -- I only skimmed the comments -- but how on Earth are you getting nothing but "handjobs" and "shallow sexxings and innuendo" from the onscreen Jack/Ianto? Not just nothing but "unambiguously" nothing? The first J/I scene of the second series was the 'I came back for you', the second was the date scene, the third was the Sleeper banter, the fourth (that I can remember off the top of my head) was the TtLM kiss, the fifth was the Adam stuff, and so on.

Your problem with the BBCA blogs is based on the fact that they're not giving us enough meaningful J/I onscreen, and are somehow trying to make up for it by giving us it in the blog (and this is wrong of them, somewhow, you lost me in the middle there) but they ARE giving us the J/I, it's just, you know, subtle and grownup (unlike the 'romantic' Gwen/Jack, which is blatant and juvenile).

Basically, my face right now: wtf?

[tencrush]

Sorry if you've heard this before -- I only skimmed the comments -- but how on Earth are you getting nothing but "handjobs" and "shallow sexxings and innuendo" from the onscreen Jack/Ianto? Not just nothing but "unambiguously" nothing?
Oh, God, look, there's eight month's worth of the tag "torchwood: fanalysis", and another couple of thousand comments for you to get through if you want to know where I'm getting that from. I'm aware they're giving us subtle and grownup J/I onscreen, what I am doing here is questioning the narrative choices that have been made with regards to this particular relationship. As you say, the Jack/Gwen is blatant and juvenile, in fact, pretty much everything in this show is pretty fucking blatant and juvenile and hammered into our heads like we're morons pretty much most of the time, except strangely enough, Jack/Ianto. Which is wonderfully subtle and underplayed. Now I love the way it's subtle and underplayed (and I think a lot of it's purely down to Gareth/John and how they work onscreen), but it's a strange way to choose to play this one, when compared with how other things are shown in the show.

The relationship between Jack and Ianto, which, as you say, started out really promising in the first few episodes (there seemed to be a romantic attachment from Jack and crucially for me Jack seemed to be letting Ianto call the shots), seemed to a lot of people, once it was established that they were fucking again, to boil down to just that: they were fucking again. I'm not a shipper, I don't care if they're fucking or married with puppies or if they break up, but what I do care about is the impression that's being put across onscreen and I think, and a lot of people would agree, that they've left an incredible amount of room for interpretation when it comes to Jack/Ianto, and for a show that isn't really very good at subtlety in any other respect, that comes across as a bit weird. To leave the primary relationship of the romantic lead of the show open to such wildly varying interpretations (there's plenty of room to interpret that they're in a meaningful monogamous relationship, sure, there's been plenty of hints in that direction, but a lot of people don't think Jack and Ianto are in any way exclusive and are just having a bit of bumfun on the side to pass the time) is a weird narrative choice to make, but given Jack's characterisation, as I say in my concluding paragraph, it's an understandable choice if you want to keep Jack's mystique intact and keep everything about him just a little bit vague. But if that's the reason you're keeping things subtle, don't go making them unsubtle in the blogs, because that defeats the object.

I'd love to see your face right now, honestly I would. If you want to know my basic beef with TW, I'd recommend my open letter and subsequent words of advice for RTD, which basically sum up what I feel is lacking in the writing and, primarily, the leadership department when it comes to TW. I ADORE TW, I don't think I've ever quite liked a show as much, but my God do I hate it. It makes me want to bite my own face off.

[tigress35.livejournal.com]

Word to everything. I had been hoping that the Captain's Blog hadn't been written by someone on the show, since there seemed to be so much inconsistency that increased with each entry.

[off_coloratura]

My god, that's a fab icon.

[hamsterfur.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you've addressed this issue. I think the Captain's Blogs can be horribly OOC personally. I enjoy your blogs but I notice you sometimes state your opinions as absolute fact (I remember you commenting several times about the authorship of the Captain's Blog, eg: "The captain's blog lies entirely outside the responsibility of the production team. It's not led or even vaguely guided by anyone involved in the actual making of the show" "It's the fact that it's not even vaguely guided by the production that bugs me" as though that was an on-the-record fact and not simply your opinion, alhough it wasn't an unreasonable assumption to make!), and I don't agree with that. You are entitled to say whatever you like on your own blog, of course! You can post screeds about how Jack is in love with Janet if you want, but your essays are widely read and respected in fandom, and maybe it would be more responsible not to phrase personal opinions and assumptions about elements of the production workings as factual statements unless there's some kind of source (like cast/production statements, interviews and things). This fandom is so awash with rumours and wrong info (if I hear one more person say, "didja hear Jack's not going to be in it next year?" I will scream) I just think it's real important to differentiate between fact and fan discussion.

[tencrush]

Oh, man, that's just how I talk and there's not a damn thing I can do about that. I've said before elsewhere that I believe that's probably my Dutch coming out, I tend to go a bit preachy and quasi-factual when I'm trying to put a point across. In the case of the quotes you quote there, yeah, I know where that came from, they stem from around the time that the production, including Moran himself, were, for some unfathomable reason, vehemently denying that they had anything to do with the Captain's Blogs and I took their statements at face value, glued them onto the fact that the Blogs seemed SO INSANELY AT ODDS with everything else and used the most ridiculously overblown romantic imagery and language, and I put two and two together and came up with 153. Part of me wishes what I said there had been true.

This blog is fan discussion, end of story. I don't know anyone who writes TW, acts in TW, directs TW, makes tea for TW, I only know what I see on screen and the words I write about it. Everything I write is my opinion and I attempt to state as fact only those things I know to be true. I don't succeed very well, probably, but that's just the way it is, I'm not going to apologise for that.

[boji.livejournal.com]

You've forgotten one thing: they don't have a bible. Now apparently Bible's are no longer en vogue in Hollywood but in the land of palm trees and 22 episode series there are writers rooms. In Cardiff? Not so much because the BBC can't afford it. So all writers are freelance. They write independantly. And never the twain do meet. Which is where I think the problem really arises.

Secondly, no one has a clear vision on Torchwood's mission or what the 21st change is - aside from what we learn in 'Who' which is that aliens are out there and they planet-nap. So... the shows can't be separate in anyway shape or form.

To my mind Torchwood isn't really about specific relationships as opposed to the team and the aliens of the week, (and really it does seem to me as if the episodes are structured in much the same way as generic crime drama) - it's not about the relationships in terms of the scripts focus. That's the scant B plot or the subtext (unless Jack's history/background story involves the villain of the week)

In terms of Jack's characterisation as he was conceived by Moffatt they'd have to write someone who was openly polyamorous and omnisexual. Someone who cared about Ianto was in a relationship with Ianto but for whom exclusive wasn't a frame of reference. And that's a huge thing to do dramatically when you're actually writing something else - villain of the week.

Couple that with the fact that this show has no character continuity (it's barely inconceivable that the Owen we meet in series one has the backstory we learn about in Fragments) and a tiny example would be the fact that Gwen and Owen have an affair but they never have a conversation about that affair in the days after she gets engaged. There's nothing.

It's as if episodes exist in pocket universes. And I do think this is because: No bible & no writer's room.

Slightly tangential to this is I think the way viewers and fans react to telly. Viewers will watch Torchwood but probably won't have much of an on-line interaction with the show. And among fans there are layers there too. I don't think blogs and episodic commentary are as much staunch cannon as say webisodes are in other series. I think they're designed as an optional extra. But you can take it or leave it. And I think that's intentional.

Why? I don't think Torchwood was designed or approached as a soap. Character elements yes, but the focus is action-horror-comedy... I think.

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

You've forgotten one thing: they don't have a bible. Now apparently Bible's are no longer en vogue in Hollywood but in the land of palm trees and 22 episode series there are writers rooms. In Cardiff? Not so much because the BBC can't afford it. So all writers are freelance. They write independantly. And never the twain do meet. Which is where I think the problem really arises.

One of the problems anyway. I can't understand why they don't have some sort of background worked out for the characters. Maybe not a backstory as detailed as we got in Fragments, but at the very least, there should have been some guidelines laid down. The showrunners/writers should have known from day 1 that Jack has been with Torchwood for over 100 years, that Owen joined after his fiancee died, that Tosh joined after a run in with UNIT. The details could have been left open, but the basics should have been set in stone.

[crazytook.livejournal.com]

ok. lemme see. first of all, i agree with your final analysis. they don't really know where they want to go with jack. but i don't actually think that the problem is so much with where to go with jack as a romantic lead. the show has quite embraced the concept of the love triangle and seems content with going in that direction. it also allows him to have a serious relationship, while being all happy go lucky.

i also think a lot of people miss the fact that jack is a flirt. he flirts, and is generally harmless. now a days, in our quaint 21st century world, most relationships allow for flirting, and yes, even to the level jack flirts. (of course, my perception of what is allowed in the common relationship may be skewed by the fact that i'm an actor who goes to an insanely liberal new york city college...)

i actually don't think they're trying to please everyone, and i journey's end is no proof to me that they are. the bit with rose is actually the best solution to getting rose off the show. having her choose to stay in the parallel world is more permanent than sending her back there or killing her. (death is not always permanent in science fiction, especially in an episode featuring the five million times dead davros) i think the bit with rose was more of a function of solving a story telling problem more than an attempt to please everyone.

and if anything, i propose the theory that the mentions on the captain's blog are less pandering and more of an attempt to clarify the relationship between jack and ianto is based on more than sex. why bother? because the captain's blog is generally used to clear up the relationships on the show. look at how he talks about the other characters in the blog. i think it's a general clarification process because the relationships are dealt with in subtext.

and the show does show a deeper relationship between jack and ianto. it also shows that jack has deep feelings for gwen too. and that tosh is a daughter figure. and owen, well that's some kind of younger brother/son figure. maybe a nephew type. hard to tell.

you are right tho, there are mad character continuity problems in the show. mostly because the first season is...well...bad. i mean, there i said it. as much as i adore this show, the first season is generally a mess.

but all that aside, cause honestly, i really don't know what exactly i'm trying to say, i guess i'll return to the point at hand: i do agree that the show is not entirely sure where to go with jack. i don't agree that they are trying to please everyone. i do agree that the blogs read like something a squeeing 15 year old fan girl wrote between making out with signed photos of gareth david lloyd and john barrowman.

sorry that was rambling. i really don't know where to start with all this. i hope i made something resembling sense.

crazytook

[tencrush]

i propose the theory that the mentions on the captain's blog are less pandering and more of an attempt to clarify the relationship between jack and ianto is based on more than sex. why bother? because the captain's blog is generally used to clear up the relationships on the show. look at how he talks about the other characters in the blog. i think it's a general clarification process because the relationships are dealt with in subtext.

I find that slightly problematic, though, the fact that it is felt the relationships need clarification tells me that they're aware the onscreen clarity is lacking. [devil's advocate]I think it's interesting that they feel the need especially to clarify it for an American audience, there's been nothing even vaguely similar on the British site. Do they think Americans are just slightly less sophisticated and need stuff spelled out to them that little bit more?[/devil's advocate]

Possessive Ianto....

[(Anonymous)]

"It would have been better for everyone involved if Jack was still omnisexual and poly and Ianto was fine with that, the whole dynamic would be so much better and there wouldn't be any need for this weird pastede on Blog romance."

They're just not going to go this direction, though. RTD spent a couple of lines in The Stolen Earth establishing Possessive Ianto.

Series 3 will either have to give us more Janto coupledom, or a big break-up - which may have the side effect of making Jack look like a bastard. Tricky for your main hero.

Also tricky is not pissing off the Queer viewers by making the Gwen/Rhys het coupling seem so much more stable - even though it hasn't been. (Gwen/Owen).

Re: Possessive Ianto....

[tencrush]

No, I know they're not going to go in this direction, I just think it would have been the best direction to take initially. Putting Jack in a relationship makes him a bastard if he ends it (especially this one, given the inherent squick involved in the fact that he's Ianto's boss) but it makes him kind of dull and not the omnisexual hero they wrote him as if he goes all monogamous and romantic. It's a catch 22 situation now, and it's why my only suggestion, to salvage Jack's character and also Ianto's (who's still perceived by many as quite the downtrodden boytoy), from a writing perspective, would be to have Ianto end the relationship for whatever reason.

I think they have in some corners already managed to piss off the queer contingent by the approach they've taken. Like I've said before, I find it quite baffling that this show, which is so hilariously unsubtle about pretty much everything, would choose to shroud the canon gay relationship in so much subtlety, innuendo and subtext. Not the gay sex, mind, but the nature of the gay relationship. It's a weird approach to take.