That big Janto debate, in summary, then...

Thank everyone for jumping into my debate/ramblings about Jack/Ianto, just a point or two to clarify and summarise:

• I don't have a problem with Gwen, or Jack being in love with or loving Gwen. I don't think it detracts from his relationship with Ianto and I don't think Ianto is some poor naive lamb who is hurt by Jack looking at or loving other people. I'm pretty sure Ianto realises that getting involved with Jack could mean entering into a polyamorous relationship, and I assume that in entering into a relationship with Jack, Ianto accepts that. I've never thought of Ianto as naive or stupid. He knows what he's doing.



• The problem I do have, is in the fact that they are SHOWING us Jack MOONING over Gwen, and they are showing us ABSOLUTELY NO MOONING over Ianto. In doing that, whilst slowly showing us that Ianto is PRETTY DAMNED IN LOVE (The speech in Adam, the coming out scene this episode, Ianto is getting pretty invested into this relationship, if you hadn't noticed), they're not showing ANY OF THE SAME from Jack. Now Jack already is Ianto's boss, he's older than Ianto, and, this being Ianto's first guy-guy thing, Jack is VASTLY MORE EXPERIENCED as well. As they start to show us how emotionally involved Ianto is, with no reciprocation on that level from Jack, the relationship becomes more and more uncomfortable to watch because the power is starting to shift towards Jack so heavily. Harassment. I had this issue with them in season 1, as well. That niggling feeling I couldn't quite shift that Jack was manipulating Ianto with sex, because Jack figured it would be advantageous to redirect Ianto's obviously passionate loyalties towards Jack, by means of his magickal futuristic cock.



• Or, to put it another way, and quote one of the commenters on the previous post: "isn't sleeping with someone who has way deep emotional feelings for you, which you clearly don't reciprocate as intensely, still pretty icky?" No matter which way you look at it, yeah, that's a little bit icky.



• And to quote myself, another general niggle I have is this: The playing up of their sex games is starting to detract from any possible hints of depth to the relationship and is distracting me to the point of annoyance. Jokes are one thing, kink is fine, but you can take things too far, and that point has more or less been reached, unless you give me some depth to balance it out.



• On a seperate note, I have never once said Gareth David-Lloyd is fat. I've been making pie jokes for a few weeks, because he's obviously gained a few pounds and he's one of those people unfortunate enough to have any weight gain, no matter how slight, show up around the face area, so he needs to watch himself. I only say it out of love and I would still happily FUCK HIM UNTIL HE BREAKS. Just to make that clear.



• I do have a serious observation to make about Jack's implied attitude of fucking the men and marrying the women, but I'll probably save it for torch_wood or torchwood_meta or something, because it's something that seems to be becoming an issue with a lot of people.

Thank you all for listening.

The one that seems to be bugging people, Jack's attitude towards men.

Oh, goodness, I never meant to cause wank, though I stand by what I said on Jack/Ianto and the way it's coming across to me.

In response to crabby_lioness I have to start off and say that no, I DON'T believe RTD has an obligation to paint gay relationships as any healthier or happier than het ones, ALL relationships in Torchwood are pretty fucked up, and that's absolutely fine by me, it's far more interesting when they are. BUT... I think the powers that be have, yet again, not really thought a few things through, and it's making Jack look bad, and it's coming across as if the show has a general apologetic/embarrassed attitude towards same sex relationships. But then it wouldn't be the first time Russell's been accused of that sort of thing, apparently (I really don't know, I'm not that knowledgeable on fandom issues, this is just something that bugs me, personally).

There's a few things that are feeding this image of Jack being such a madonna/whore figure when it comes to women and men, and there's a few problems that arise from it.

• Jack's anecdotes are always about men. Old boyfriends, circus artists, whatever, they're always male. Now this is easily explained from a writing point of view, because it probably just stems from a politically correct fear of having Jack tell sexually tinged anecdotes about women. Let's face it, it would be pounced on like rape spray if he said he once had a girlfiend with tits the size of watermelons. It's probably just a PC thing. BUT IT'S STARTING TO ADD UP, and I don't think the writers ever thought through that this might be an issue.


• All Jack's emotional backstory involves women. Anyone he's shown to have had serious feelings about (Estelle, Rose, Deadwife, Gwen even)... ALL WOMEN. Probably coincidence, BUT IT STARTS TO ADD UP.


• We're told Jack had a long lasting relationship with Captain John, five years, in fact. Yet for some reason Jack, in a rather assholleish manner, keeps trying to downplay it and tell us it was two weeks. Probably because he's embarrassed to have been involved with John, the person, BUT IT ALL ADDS UP.


• Too many nods towards Jack and Ianto's kinky sex games. I wouldn't dare suggest kink points towards a loveless relationship, far from it, but constant nods towards their kink AND NOTHING ELSE, again, is starting to add up to Ianto being a sexual conquest, not an emotional interest.


• Weird thing that flows from this dichotomy, is that the distinction Jack seems to be making between men and women is also making him look really, really BI. In fact, his fawning over the Doctor is the only thing that tells us that he also goes for aliens, and let's face it, the Doctor looks human (he's also, promisingly, the one male that contradicts this evidence, but that just makes it all the more plausibe that Jack distinguishes between HUMAN men and women)


• Saying "Oh, Jack loves everyone, he's omnisexual", really isn't a way out of this one, because Jack's been shown to have been married, his parents were shown to have been a standard, non-poly couple, so monogamy and being faithful to people is not a concept that is alien to him. In the way he's being portrayed at the moment, though, it's starting to look like what IS alien to him, is monogamy with and being faithful TO MEN.


• Yeah, so maybe I'm giving the writers too little credit here, and, in fact, the whole gay thing and the impact of Jack's attitude on the viewers has been thought through to the minutest detail. *coughs* In all honesty, I think a lot of people are guilty of giving the writers FAR TOO MUCH CREDIT for a lot of things. I think, on the whole, a lot of this show is an absolute shambles and momentary moments of brilliance are coincidental, and not planned. You really think they're thinking this stuff through? The people who brought you Rape Spray 2.0 - The Flashback Edition? Sorry, but no, I really really don't.