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tencrushOh, goodness, I never meant to cause wank, though I stand by what I said on Jack/Ianto and the way it's coming across to me.
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crabby_lioness I have to start off and say that no, I DON'T believe RTD has an obligation to paint gay relationships as any healthier or happier than het ones, ALL relationships in Torchwood are pretty fucked up, and that's absolutely fine by me, it's far more interesting when they are. BUT... I think the powers that be have, yet again, not really thought a few things through, and it's making Jack look bad, and it's coming across as if the show has a general apologetic/embarrassed attitude towards same sex relationships. But then it wouldn't be the first time Russell's been accused of that sort of thing, apparently (I really don't know, I'm not that knowledgeable on fandom issues, this is just something that bugs me, personally).
There's a few things that are feeding this image of Jack being such a madonna/whore figure when it comes to women and men, and there's a few problems that arise from it.
In response to
crabby_lioness I have to start off and say that no, I DON'T believe RTD has an obligation to paint gay relationships as any healthier or happier than het ones, ALL relationships in Torchwood are pretty fucked up, and that's absolutely fine by me, it's far more interesting when they are. BUT... I think the powers that be have, yet again, not really thought a few things through, and it's making Jack look bad, and it's coming across as if the show has a general apologetic/embarrassed attitude towards same sex relationships. But then it wouldn't be the first time Russell's been accused of that sort of thing, apparently (I really don't know, I'm not that knowledgeable on fandom issues, this is just something that bugs me, personally).There's a few things that are feeding this image of Jack being such a madonna/whore figure when it comes to women and men, and there's a few problems that arise from it.
- Jack's anecdotes are always about men. Old boyfriends, circus artists, whatever, they're always male. Now this is easily explained from a writing point of view, because it probably just stems from a politically correct fear of having Jack tell sexually tinged anecdotes about women. Let's face it, it would be pounced on like rape spray if he said he once had a girlfiend with tits the size of watermelons. It's probably just a PC thing. BUT IT'S STARTING TO ADD UP, and I don't think the writers ever thought through that this might be an issue.
- All Jack's emotional backstory involves women. Anyone he's shown to have had serious feelings about (Estelle, Rose, Deadwife, Gwen even)... ALL WOMEN. Probably coincidence, BUT IT STARTS TO ADD UP.
- We're told Jack had a long lasting relationship with Captain John, five years, in fact. Yet for some reason Jack, in a rather assholleish manner, keeps trying to downplay it and tell us it was two weeks. Probably because he's embarrassed to have been involved with John, the person, BUT IT ALL ADDS UP.
- Too many nods towards Jack and Ianto's kinky sex games. I wouldn't dare suggest kink points towards a loveless relationship, far from it, but constant nods towards their kink AND NOTHING ELSE, again, is starting to add up to Ianto being a sexual conquest, not an emotional interest.
- Weird thing that flows from this dichotomy, is that the distinction Jack seems to be making between men and women is also making him look really, really BI. In fact, his fawning over the Doctor is the only thing that tells us that he also goes for aliens, and let's face it, the Doctor looks human (he's also, promisingly, the one male that contradicts this evidence, but that just makes it all the more plausibe that Jack distinguishes between HUMAN men and women)
- Saying "Oh, Jack loves everyone, he's omnisexual", really isn't a way out of this one, because Jack's been shown to have been married, his parents were shown to have been a standard, non-poly couple, so monogamy and being faithful to people is not a concept that is alien to him. In the way he's being portrayed at the moment, though, it's starting to look like what IS alien to him, is monogamy with and being faithful TO MEN.
- Yeah, so maybe I'm giving the writers too little credit here, and, in fact, the whole gay thing and the impact of Jack's attitude on the viewers has been thought through to the minutest detail. *coughs* In all honesty, I think a lot of people are guilty of giving the writers FAR TOO MUCH CREDIT for a lot of things. I think, on the whole, a lot of this show is an absolute shambles and momentary moments of brilliance are coincidental, and not planned. You really think they're thinking this stuff through? The people who brought you Rape Spray 2.0 - The Flashback Edition? Sorry, but no, I really really don't.
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Date: 2008-03-09 12:19 pm (UTC)Cripes, so that's where you've been. :)
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Date: 2008-03-09 01:27 pm (UTC)Oh, also, I may have been spreading a trojan just by letting people look at webpages I've been looking at, such as this one. Which is a great time to go starting a 150-odd comment thread. The internet may die. Run your Norton.
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Date: 2008-03-09 12:27 pm (UTC)Rape Spray 2.0
Date: 2008-03-09 12:31 pm (UTC)Ha. Ha. I noticed that. It was shorn of cause and effect grant you, so if you're unfamiliar with the debate and original scene you wouldn't know what happened or that the scene following the spray flashback was part of the same sequence, but what the hell were they thinking? That scene is wildly controversial and they know it. Were they trying to piss people off and rub their noses in it or as you say are they really that dumb?
I think they don't give various things that much thought at all, like character continuity, though some seem to think much of the cock-ups are part of a great plan.
Re: Rape Spray 2.0
Date: 2008-03-10 04:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-09 01:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-09 02:31 pm (UTC)Mmm...just went off to my happy place for a minute there, imagining that scene.
Seriously, though, I think you're spot on here. I've heard on my travels on TWOP that Jack will never be shown in an explicit scene because of his crossovers to DW but that doesn't preclude them giving us something to know what's up. So to speak. Yes, I'm twelve. :-)
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Date: 2008-03-09 06:28 pm (UTC)Forgive me for asking, but I'm a little new to the "fandom" (and also literally just started watching DW) but why exactly can't so called cross over characters have explicit scenes in the adult show? If I'm remebering correctly, the BBC shows two versions of 'Torchwood', couldn't the scene just be edited out? and then the kids, or others who might not appreciate it (sad I know), who watch both (assuming they do watch the "family friendly" version) wouldn't, presumbly, be the wiser?
Perhaps this is just my "American" take on it, and I'm not so familiar with how British programing operates
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Date: 2008-03-09 10:31 pm (UTC)As to British programming: BBC 2 doesn't broadcast a family-friendly version, I don't think - it only ever seems to be on post-watershed. There may be a pre-watershed bowdlerized version broadcast on BBC 3, I wouldn't know, since I can't get non-terrestrial channels :(
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Date: 2008-03-09 11:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-10 04:46 pm (UTC)I don't know how accurate this is, but just pass it along as something I encountered in my travels. Right now I think JB's impression that he has a muffin top might have more to do with how much nudity we're going to get from that direction. :-)
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Date: 2008-03-10 04:52 pm (UTC)http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3131800&st=6030&p=9855014&#entry9855014
I see from reading further down the thread that
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Date: 2008-03-11 05:05 am (UTC)And that's not even mentioning episode 11...
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Date: 2008-03-11 05:08 am (UTC)JB said something...somewhere...that the "no sex for Jack" rule had been tossed. That he probably wouldn't do anything too explicit, but that sex was on the table.
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Date: 2008-03-09 04:55 pm (UTC)I would also mention Jack's tenderness towards Captain Jack - I loved that kiss mostly because it was so emotional. And I do agree with crabbylioness's interpretation about Janto - we don't know that Jack is being a user here. After all, for all we hear so much about Jack's enormous studdliness, in nearly two series of Torchwood, who has he actually slept with? As far as we know, one person, and that's Ianto. I think the innuendo isn't meant to be dismissive so much as show they have fun together, both of them, and even if Ianto is just a conquest, there's no evidence this troubles him particularly, or even that it's not his idea. To be honest, I think there's an argument for Jack/Ianto being the healthiest relationship portrayed on Torchwood yet, if you compare it to the cheating and lying of Rhys and Gwen, the adulterous Gwen/Owen and poor Tosh and her kiss of death. At least both of them seem happy!
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Date: 2008-03-09 05:16 pm (UTC)*goes away again*
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Date: 2008-03-09 07:09 pm (UTC)And I think there IS evidence to support the assumption that Ianto is in this relationship for more than just sex, whereas I find we've seen very little evidence that this is the case with Jack.
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Date: 2008-03-09 08:08 pm (UTC)As for evidence, well, there's evidence and there's interpretation of that evidence. I'm pretty certain Jack represents more than just a fling to him, but how much more, and what Jack feels about him, that's very open to interpretation. Like, I read all the spoilers to SB before I watched the episode, and I was expecting it to be an enormous Gwack fest, and that I would hate it. But I really didn't. Jack and Ianto were as couply as they've ever been, Jack practically hands Gwen up the alter, and Gwen makes a huge noise about Rhys being the one for her. Obviously other people didn't see it that way, but a lot of it comes down to how you want to interpret a few ambiguous lines and moony looks. Personally, I'm going to wait and see.
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Date: 2008-03-10 10:42 am (UTC)Whoever told you that might be thinking of Bob and Rose (gay man falls in love with a woman - at first sight and somewhat inexplicably, this being an RTD production - and marries her and has babiez) - there's only about one woman in QAF who isn't either a lesbian or related to the main characters, and there are no happy het relationships that I can remember.
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Date: 2008-03-10 11:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-09 05:08 pm (UTC)Honestly, the big thing that really pisses me off between the Gwen/Jack thing is the fact that Gwen always still looks willing to jump his bones and leave Rhys. She was so quick to snog shapeshifter!Jack without even considering that it might be the alien. The schmoopy eyes at the reception were an entirely different idea. I just don't like how this is turning out for Rhys, who has always been screwed over since season one. Forget Ianto being the lamb. It's Rhys, and that's what he is on TW - an emotional tool for Gwen. And it aint gonna end pretty.
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Date: 2008-03-09 05:22 pm (UTC)I think they thought it through very, very carefully, and this is how they're handling it.
Jack's anecdotes are always about men.
This is not true. Jack never said the executioners were men - fans are reading that into the text. He never said both the acrobats were men, though we know that one of them was. The captain of the Chula warship, whom he may have seduced before stealing her ship, was female. Proust, admittedly, was male.
Anyone he's shown to have had serious feelings about (Estelle, Rose, Deadwife, Gwen even)... ALL WOMEN
Do you seriously believe he did not have - and does not have - serious feelings about the Doctor?
This comment alone makes me discount most of what you say. I see Jack's love of the Doctor as the biggest turning point of his life.
Why do you think Jack's parents weren't poly? Or that they were straight?
I think you are making a lot of assumptions that just aren't there in the show.
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Date: 2008-03-09 05:37 pm (UTC)Might say the same about you. Why do you think Jack's parents were poly or not straight? Why on a more general term is Jack too damaged to commit to Ianto? He doesn't seem to have had problems committing to others? Who says Jack is polyamorous? Who says it is unrealistic to expect monogamy? Why do you seem to see many of the same people arguing that this is just Jack's polyamorous nature and he can't love only one person wrt this, poo-pooing the idea that Jack could not commit to Ianto because of his polyamorous, omnisexual nature and citing previous apparently monogamous relationships as proof that Jack can do commitment on other occasions?
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Date: 2008-03-09 06:05 pm (UTC)I'm not making conclusions either way, but we have the evidence of the Doctor's statement that people of the 51st cnetury tend to be 'flexible'. I would assume, then, in absence of other indications, that Jack's parent's were 'flexible', however you may want to take that.
All we really know about Jack's parents is what we saw in "Adam", so we know they were human, male and female. I don't think their orientation was mentioned, or needed to be. But there's nothing to indicate they were straight.
Why on a more general term is Jack too damaged to commit to Ianto?
I don't think Jack is damaged at all. I'm not convinced that Jack doesn't consider himself to have a commitment to Ianto, though I don't think it's a commitment that includes monogamy - but even then, it might, since we haven't seen Jack have sex with anyone else since he came back from the Valiant. (I hope they don't have a monogamous commitment because I like a poly hero, but that's just my hopes.)
Who says Jack is polyamorous?
Well, I did. I think I have evidence for it: we have known him to show love for more than one person at a time, and his anecdotes about executioners and acrobats would imply that. Not to mention that I believe he deeply loved both Rose and the Doctor. Admittedly I am interpreting here: but I think there's more than enough evidence to make my interpretation valid.
Why do you seem to see many of the same people arguing that this is just Jack's polyamorous nature and he can't love only one person wrt this, poo-pooing the idea that Jack could not commit to Ianto because of his polyamorous, omnisexual nature and citing previous apparently monogamous relationships as proof that Jack can do commitment on other occasions?
I think you are mistaking what I am arguing. I am arguing that Jack can commit to others, and has done so - has maybe even been monogamous when his partner wishes it.
I am arguing that he loves Ianto deeply and I don't have a problem with that. I don't see a lack of commitment between him and Ianto - you're the one who is arguing that. I"m arguing that they have, for the present, the relationship they want, and it's a happy one.
Just popping by to say:
Date: 2008-03-09 07:24 pm (UTC)WORD.
When fandom has to spend a lot of time retconning/excusing cannon, that's usually when there is a problem with the source material. Chris Chibnall I'm looking at you...
Which doesn't mean that I don't hold the belief that Jack is truly polyamorous and omnisexual. If you go back to the Moffatt episodes in DW it's in the text that he is. He sleeps with men, women and aliens and I firmly believe that he loves according to person - not race, sex, age or gender.
That said I also believe that his backstory has been put together in a slapdash half-thought way and so we're left with disjointed impressions EVERY WHICH WAY and thus we read things into the gaps that probably weren't meant to be there in terms of implication.
It's bad writing. It's not a social message or agenda. To my mind.
Re: Just popping by to say:
Date: 2008-03-09 07:37 pm (UTC)Re: Just popping by to say:
Date: 2008-03-09 08:11 pm (UTC)I generally meta at length and I'm not kind to the writers when they don't deserve it. A recent rant was on world-building (http://boji.livejournal.com/211622.html) and what I see as a lack of. A recent conversation on
That said I ought to issue the caveat that I'm not a Janto fan. Although I think Ianto is much less of a cipher this series and a more interesting character, I think the ball was dropped in a big way with Cyberwoman and the huge betrayal of trust there-in and as that was never discussed/developed/dramatised I had a huge issue with the relationship that then developed - or continued - between Jack and Ianto. Different viewers as they say...
eta: BTW the writers have previously stated that this show DOESN'T have anything resembling a show bible and that they think this is a brave, new positive direction.
Enough said.
Re: Just popping by to say:
Date: 2008-03-09 08:27 pm (UTC)I really don't think retarded is too strong a word for the production team sometimes.
Re: Just popping by to say:
Date: 2008-03-10 08:02 am (UTC)Re: Just popping by to say:
Date: 2008-03-10 01:28 pm (UTC)Re: Just popping by to say:
Date: 2008-03-10 02:16 pm (UTC)I ramble about television in an attempt to turn my brain off.
Re: Just popping by to say:
Date: 2008-03-10 03:53 pm (UTC)I don't hold out all that much hope that Janto will be around for too long, and that's sad but I don't dislike either Jack or Ianto for that. I know that shows won't have two regular cast members together in a happy relationship for very long. Jack's back story is just plain odd at times, so I try to ignore it. But, I hated watching Ianto be ignored when he cut in and Jack looking away. But, I also think you can wank that away. It's just bad writing that's causing the problem. Oh, and that Rhys is lovely and it sucks to see him get so used.
Hope some of that made sense.
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Date: 2008-03-09 10:37 pm (UTC)I think is because last season Gwen slept with Owen and acts like nothing heppen, maybe they retcon themselves, she has Rhys and now it looks like she wants Jack. I like Gwen, IMYGODDIDIJUSTSAYDTHAT!YES, but the writters at portraying her as a selfish, needy, nosy, dramatic person and Jack a selfish mushy person toos. I don't think that's what Jack wants, but then again we don't know much of Jack. Jack knew about this affair and now it seems he is ok with it and the thing that she is showing some interest in him which probably Jack likes. He knows he has Ianto's love, loyalty, and restpect so he doesn't he doens't worry about that but with Gwen he knows she would give up everthing for Rhys. Who would Ianto give up Torchwood for? Jack and torchwood is the only thing he has. Maybe the experience in the valiant made him more emotional and be open about it but I think he is doing it with the wrong person. Ianto is an emotional person is just that he hides it pretty well and Gwen doens't. I think Jack is confused about who he really loves here. But you know what these writters aren't stupid, they are freeking brilliant!!! Making us watch the show more because we want to know what is goint to happen with the Jack/Iatno and Jack/Gwen thing. Brilliant I tell ya Brilliant!!! I bet they are reading all this with Gareth, Eve, John and Russel and just having a laugh. It's cool but hey give us something good for us Janto shippers, it's starting to get annoying. Now back to my math, that is if I can.hehhehee
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Date: 2008-03-10 12:06 am (UTC)I suspect there are two reasons that Jack's anecdotes tend to be about men. One is the general gayness of the men making the show; and the other is that you can throw a dart at the TV at any minute of the day and hit het, so they're trying to compensate.
The only non-human I can think of that Jack has been attracted do is Chantho. I would so love it if Jack mentioned a bizarre alien lover who was an amoeba or a winged giraffe or something; or better still, if we saw him wake up in bed with them. >:-)
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Date: 2008-03-10 07:29 am (UTC)I've always secretly hoped for an anecdote about some purple hermaprodite creature with three cocks and a killer vag with teeth that he spent a very pleasant weekend with once. THAT JUST NEVER HAPPENS AND IT KIND OF BUGS ME.
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Date: 2008-03-10 05:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-10 07:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-10 08:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-10 08:23 am (UTC)In an ideal world, I'd say they were building up to some sort of reverse Adam situation Jack/Ianto redemption thing, but, again, I fear I'm probably giving the thought being put into this show far too much credit.
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Date: 2008-03-10 01:19 am (UTC)Anyway, didn't RTD say in a TWU that he basically sees Jack as an unprincipled conman slut (not actual quotation) so any development or growth/change of that central character makes the working formula potentially change to a non-working formula and that is TV death. Yikes, TW imperfect or no TW???
I feel I constantly disagree with you but I can't help it!! I'm and argumentative person
Date: 2008-07-30 04:16 pm (UTC)B) So I do realize that point A won't stand alone because it can always be argued that Jack is also from the future and he lived past the 80's, obviously, and he never shared in that attitude, etc, etc. That is where point B comes into play in defense of point A. Point B is as follows: Jack never talks about any emotional relationships. One can assume based off his personality he has has emotionally heavy relationships and that for him there's no in between of shagging for fun and having that kind of deep connection and feelings. If you notice Jack never talks about those relationships unless something brings them out and the team begins questioning. He's an open book in some respects but very distant in other respects and isn't comfortable talking about his complex emotions to people. Except maybe Ianto, but we don't get to see their pillow talk so I'm only conjecturing. That explains why he downplays his relationship with John, especially given the situation of John double crossing the team which Jack kind of predicted. He can't bring himself to open up about those feelings because he knows that those people he cared for so intensely are either dead, betrayed him in the case of John, or he can no longer be with them because they've aged and he hasn't. None of those reasons, if you notice, apply to the Doctor because I personally don't believe he had romantic feelings towards the Doctor. I always saw it more as either hero worship or even a familial connection.
Sorry for my arguementation, I really can't help it!
Re: I feel I constantly disagree with you but I can't help it!! I'm and argumentative person
Date: 2008-07-30 07:47 pm (UTC)This piece was written in response to a negative reaction to the portrayal of the relationship between Jack and Ianto, one which came from the Afterelton/Angrypuppy GLBT ends of the internet. I realise there are many complex reasons why Jack wouldn't do this and wouldn't do that or talk about this, that and the other, but I'm not analysing Jack's character here. This post is simply a summation of the onscreen canon that was causing many people, and many people in the gay community especially, to react so negatively to the relationship at the time of Something Borrowed, which is when this post was written. I think the reasons stated above are the reasons for that reaction.
I agree with what you're saying, on the whole. Apart from the fact that I think the anecdotes come mostly from another time, his time with the Time Agency and as a conman. I think that because I feel Jack has since his time on the Gamestation, been on some sort of hero-worshiping, what-would-the-Doctor-do-type path of redemption as far as his behaviour is concerned (not that the Doctor has ever acknowledged this), and mostly because I think he was mostly just a miserable git between the Gamestation and S1 of Torchwood.