The Ballad of Russell T. Davies

[tencrush]

I said yesterday how much this guy has ruined Who for me, and now Torchwood as well, and the thing is, I'm sure he didn't MEAN TO. But he did. How did he do that, though? Well, I've been thinking about that, and the thing is, that Russell and I just don't see eye to eye on relationships, and here's why.

There's two relationships that Russell has touted or described using the words "love" and/or "romance" and they are Doctor/Rose and Jack/Ianto. The thing about Jack/Ianto is that Russell didn't really have a very firm hand in the development and depiction of that relationship in Series One and Two of Torchwood, which makes it very interesting to see what happens to that relationship the moment that Russell DOES start to stir that particular pot in Series Three, and it's a very telling thing that happens. The relationship that we so desperately tried to fanwank away as having something of an equal footing about it, as being something of a partnership in S1 and 2 immediately, in Day One of S3, is very clearly depicted as a relationship between a STRONG and a WEAK partner. Ianto suddenly becomes Rose in S2 of Who, unsure of their position in the affections of the other, not even sure enough and confident enough to OUTRIGHT ASK what their position is, and reduced to slightly underhanded nagging about mortgages or the word "couple" in order to try and gauge what the other partner is thinking and how the other partner sees them. The dominant partner is dismissive, cold even, and the questioning party is left to shrug off that coldness and accept what's on offer because this is pretty much it, so take it or leave it. And they take it. Like a bitch.

We know how both of those relationships ended because they ended in exactly the same way, with tears and an unrequited "I love you" on the side of the weaker party. Now the thing about both of these relationships is, and I think that's what many people fail to understand, that Russell really - genuinely - finds this type of interaction romantic. This interaction between the doting, devoted (we as an audience might say "foolish") underdog and an uncommunicative, closed off stronger half, Russell really digs that shit. And when we, as an audience, say to Russell that we find what we see on screen unsatisfying, maybe because we like our romances to be between equals and not so weirdly skewed, Russell really doesn't get why. And so when we say we were missing something in Jack/Ianto, Russell assumes, because he thinks it was fucking romantic, that we think they didn't have enough sex, when that's precisely the opposite of what we were missing. He's not being dismissive, he just doesn't understand our point of view. At all. And he never will. This is IT for him, this is the epitome of romance. Look at Doctor/Jack, the exact mirror of Jack/Ianto, the relationship where Jack is the foolish devoted one and the Doctor is the one being cold and unappreciative and closed. We feel for Jack in that relationship and we hate the Doctor in that moment for brushing his devotion off so casually. (Not as much as I hate Jack for brushing off Ianto, but that's only because the Doctor at least has the decency not to fuck those he keeps at arm's length.) Hell, look at Gwen/Rhys even, again, a relationship where we side with the underdog Rhys and really, when we look at the relationship objectively, think Rhys deserves better than what Gwen gives him (her superhuman rewrite in S3 notwithstanding). I won't go so far as to psychoanalyse RTD, dudes, but let's face it, the lovestruck puppy and the strong silent type, that really is Rusty's bag, baby. It ain't mine. Unfortunately.

Yes, I am angry at RTD for what he gave us in S3 of Torchwood, but mostly, I'm angry at myself for getting my hopes up that Russell would ever be able to step away from this default relationship template and give me something that would satisfy me. He can't. This is the formula that Russell writes to and it's a formula that I, personally, don't like, because I like my romance with a smidgeon of equality. And so, inevitably, I will never like anything that Russell writes. It's never going to work between me and Russell and I've now resigned myself to that. So, yeah. That's me and Russell done. Forever.

On a side note, I believe the reason RTD is so adamant that Ianto is DEAD DEAD DEAD NEVER COMING BACK NO WAY NO HOW, and not toeing the standard keep-em-hooked sci-fi line of "anything can happen, folks!" is twofold. First, I think these are the protests of a man who has been defending this decision for a while now. This isn't the first time it's been questioned, I reckon it's been questioned internally, probably reasonably vehemently, because these are the words of a man who has been digging his big gay heels in for quite some time now, shouting his way out of a corner he's been pushed into once too often. And secondly, he's so adamant about this BECAUSE JACK IS NOT COMING BACK. Jack will exit the narrative in Who, and John's not telling us this because he's still contractually obligated to toe a party line, but mark my words, Jack will leave the story or turn into the face of Boe in Who, leaving us with ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to bring Ianto back. Because Ianto's function in the narrative has only ever been to be Jack's lover and tell us as an audience more about Jack as a person. Ianto's never really been upgraded to his-own-man status in Rusty's eyes, and with the exit of Jack, Ianto will cease to have a purpose in the story, whatever it may be. Those are my thoughts on that Ianto is dead as a doornail thing. Yeah, of course, Rusty's also saying it because he loves to piss off the fanbase, that's like a masochistic thing he's really into, but apart from that, those are my reasonings as to why he's saying that.

I wish I could stop thinking about fucking Torchwood already.

Comments

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

And secondly, he's so adamant about this BECAUSE JACK IS NOT COMING BACK.

Your words fill me with a deep sense of dooooom!!!

But then again. AFAIK, RTD tried to sell the 'policewoman investigating strange crap' to the BBC before as Excalibur, and they only bought it when he plugged in the Doctor Who/Captain Jack connection. Do you really think that 2.5 seasons of Gwen has been enough to sell the Beeb on the idea of doing it now?
I would be very surprized indeed if they agreed to a 4th season without JB, considering he seems to be flavour of the month right now. And JB always seems so enthuasiastic when talking about playing the role, it'd be hard to see him turning it down.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I won't go so far as to psychoanalyse RTD, dudes, but let's face it, the lovestruck puppy and the strong silent type, that really is Rusty's bag, baby.

I have totally wondered on occasion whether he sees himself as the lovesick fool who will do anything for his man, or as the partner who need not entirely return that love because he is Just That Awesome that nobody could ever not want him no matter what he does emotionally.


First, I think these are the protests of a man who has been defending this decision for a while now. This isn't the first time it's been questioned, I reckon it's been questioned internally, probably reasonably vehemently

I could see that, when you put it like that. He is indeed coming across as someone who's already defended himself a lot and has reduced to short proclamations because he's tired of justifications.


Because Ianto's function in the narrative has only ever been to be Jack's lover and tell us as an audience more about Jack as a person. Ianto's never really been upgraded to his-own-man status in Rusty's eyes, and with the exit of Jack, Ianto will cease to have a purpose in the story, whatever it may be.

Wow, he really is the Rose of Torchwood :o

[tencrush]

I think Russell desperately wants to be the strong one who just is that awesome, but in practice he's the doting puppy. That's why, when people accuse Russell of Mary Sueing, they can never quite make up their minds as to whether the Mary Sue is the Doctor or Rose,

[louiex.livejournal.com]

Dude, the nail has been struck perfectly on the head. You're a hundred-billion percent right here! Also, throw the Rose/Mickey relationship in there too with that same dynamic as well. He only got on equal footing with another person in the form of Jake, his AU!self's bf who loved him but -again- was the casually dismissed partner until Mickey warmed up to him.

[timberwolfoz.livejournal.com]

First, I think these are the protests of a man who has been defending this decision for a while now. This isn't the first time it's been questioned, I reckon it's been questioned internally, probably reasonably vehemently...

Yes, there does seem to be a certain amount of stubbornness in the decision, doesn't it? And I'm sure someone pointed out to him just how popular a) Ianto b) the Jack/Ianto relationship was.

And secondly, he's so adamant about this BECAUSE JACK IS NOT COMING BACK.

You've got me actually looking forward to the next Who, now. And for the most part, my interest ended with Eccleston.

And y'know, I wouldn't be surprised in the least.

I wish I could stop thinking about fucking Torchwood already.

I know! I walked away from it to avoid spoilers, and now I'm drawn deeply into it when the show, for all intents and purposes, is gone.

[urnssadomen.livejournal.com]

Wow, spot on.
And because of your insightful analysis, I am actually look forward to Moffat's DW. He isa guy actually knows about romance and semi-healthy relationship (equal but still somewhat heartbreaking).

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

I wish I could stop thinking about fucking Torchwood already.

Me too. In fact, I had for several months and then COE happened and ate my brain. And not in an awesome zombie movie way.

I don't know what RTD thinks or believes, but what he writes speaks for itself. I don't know how anyone could look at Jack and Ianto's relationship in Series 3 and think, "wow, isn't that romantic?" Not even tragically romantic. It was just pathetic.

[tencrush]

And yet I really think he saw S3 Jack/Ianto as a "romance", in the same way he saw S2Who Doctor/Rose as a romance. We saw squicky one-sided puppy love, he saw "soulmates", who complete each other (but can't talk about anything. At all.)

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting observation, and it makes SENSE which is a balm to my poor little traumatized psyche.

In watching COE and reading/watching interviews with RTD, my armchair psychologist impression is that he doesn't like himself or homosexuals (his own orientation notwithstanding). Now you've got me wondering what his relationship with his partner is like. (Aaaaannnnndddd...that would be in a completely academic, non-squicky way because otherwise, just, ew. Do NOT want visuals of Rusty with *anybody*.)


the protests of a man who has been defending this decision for a while now.

That's my impression, too. His protests have felt a bit tantrummy-child to me.

BECAUSE JACK IS NOT COMING BACK. Jack will exit the narrative in Who, and John's not telling us this because he's still contractually obligated to toe a party line.

This wouldn't surprise me at all, especially in light of John's comment in a recent interview (paraphrased) that he would be happy if Jack were the only part he could play for the next ten years. That comment caught my attention when I read it because it didn't quite sound like happy, normal, "I'm a well-rounded entertainer" John.

[lukita.livejournal.com]

between the doting, devoted (we as an audience might say "foolish") underdog and an uncommunicative, closed off stronger half

I hate you, I just got bunnied.

But yes, that makes an amazing amount sense. RTD's sense of romance is what I read and believed in when I was sixteen, now I'm more than likely to kick my other half's ass for being an ass.

he's so adamant about this BECAUSE JACK IS NOT COMING BACK

Oh noes~ Yes, I think Jack is going to exit as well, especially with what JB has been saying in interviews lately. I'm still extremely upset that Ianto didn't get to grow into his own man in RTD's eyes.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'especially with what JB has been saying in interviews lately.'
What has he said?

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for his as it's reminded me that Stuart/Vince also had the EXACT SAME relationship in QAF UK - Nice, quiet Vince had to wait around for 16 years before awesome-as-fuck Stuart rode off with him into the sunset.

Although in that (a series set in the 'real' world) they got the sci-fi ending what with the Tardis!Jeep, whereas Ianto *had* to die in the sci-fi show to make to more 'real'?!

Did anybody watch Bob & Rose?

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

Wow! Having never seen any of RTD's other shows, I had no idea. I like equal relationships too so I doubt I'll enjoy any of his other shows. But than I've never been one to kiss his ass JUST BECAUSE he's RTD. Asses are for sitting, not kissing.

'Because Ianto's function in the narrative has only ever been to be Jack's lover and tell us as an audience more about Jack as a person.'
If Ianto ever gets mentioned again, even if Jack comes back, I'll be shocked.

[tencrush]

He won't. And yet we're meant to take this as a love story. It's fucked up.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

By golly, I think you've explained Russel's mindset perfectly.

We were doomed from the off. :(

[tencrush]

Pretty much, yeah. It's quite sad, really.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

This makes sooo much sense. I think Jack will be around as a "cameo/voice over." He can make a guest appearance in the first episode and then leave and check in once in a while. So he won't really be part of the new TW, so no need for him to have a relationship. It really is going to be Torchwood Angels.

As for the relationship - again you are spot on. I can't think of one healthy, balanced, romantic relationship RTD has written. Gwen & Rhys probably comes the closest, but I'm sure as AWESOME-GWEN increases her awesomeness, Rhys will get wimpier. How Rose finally got a "happy' ending was totally contrived. As for Mickey, he's the reason I could never warm up to Rose. When discussing him with friends, we always have to reference whether we are speaking about 'pussy Mickey' (Rose's boytoy) or 'tough Mickey' (from the alternative universe).

Actually, I would be thrilled if JB had an extremely limited/no role in TW4. Cause that would take away the tiny bit of temptation to watch that would remain with JB's presence.

And as for a new show - The Amazing Adventures of the Captain and his Coffee-Man - YES PLEASE.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'And as for a new show - The Amazing Adventures of the Captain and his Coffee-Man - YES PLEASE.'
Now THAT I would watch.

[kuroi-hemlock.livejournal.com]

If what you have written is true and to a point it probably is, then it just shows what kind of writer RTD is. He writes good story's, yes, but when it comes to characterization he falls flat. As a writer you have to have more then one type of character and more then one type of relationship. He seems to just repeat the same thing over and over. I've been thinking of a similar theory the past few days about his female characters and how they are the same.

Again, all I can say is WORD to your whole post. You always manage to sum up RTD in a way I could never, without ranting.

I have to point out that your analysis works also with Owen and Toshiko to a certain extent.

[(Anonymous)]

You're absolutely right.
Ten&Rose
Ten&Martha
Ten&Jack
Jack&Ianto
Tosh&Owen
Stuart&Vince
Stuart&Nathan

The only relationship that wasn't uneven was the one between Donna & Ten but he even manage to royally fuck that up in the end as well didn't he?
I have no faith in his writing. The last two Doctor Who specials reached a new low. Boring as all fuck. I can only assume he thinks the final Doctor Who specials are so great is because he gets to kill him off again.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the only reason the Donna / Ten relationship was more even was because Donna was not interested in a romantic relationship. And RTD made sure she said that on a number of episodes, just so we wouldn't forget! (But you're right, she still didn't come to a happy end.)

Tencrush - THANK YOU so much for your post. It makes so much sense. I hadn't realized it (and I've never watched QAF so I didn't have that history). I've felt so horrible because of the way the Jack/Ianto relationship was portrayed in CoE. I felt really betrayed because we'd been told how there was progress, trust built, blah blah blah. I felt like CoE used 3+ days trying to convince me that Ianto really wasn't Jack's cup of tea after all... Then it killed Ianto and Jack fell apart. Huh? After the previous days, the person I was watching with (new to Torchwood) couldn't figure out why Jack was so upset. He thought the whole scene came across as too long, melodramatic, and overacted... and what was he supposed to think, really, given what came before on CoE? Heck, what was I supposed to think, having been looking forward to "progress"? I feel a bit better now, thanks to you, and well-armed for the future.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Can someone point me to RTD's statements at ComicCon? I'd love to read them for myself.

[andreth47.livejournal.com]

Here's a good summary/live transcript of the TW panel, including the Q&A:
http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a167392/live-doctor-who-panel-at-comic-con.html

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

There certainly is a pattern, as well as a whole lack of actual happy relationships, but I don't agree with the strong/weak dichotomy, because IMO Jack's fear of relationships and the pain they brought him and the people he loved for the last century isn't strength. It's weakness, a tragic consequence of his immortality; nothing that under any circumstances could be seen as a positive quality, and the same goes for the Doctor. If you're running from love all the time, if you don't even dare to allow yourself to have that anymore because you're too scared of the inevitable loss and pain, that's not being strong, and I never saw it presented as such in either DW or TW canon.

OTOH, you may be right; I've been typing & deleting & typing & deleting for a while now, and the arguments keep slipping away from me. It feels like this is one of the questions where it all very much depends on the perspective from which you look it, the expectations you bring into it. I just can't put my finger on it.

So, this is more gut-level than brain-level: Most of the DW and TW relationships are, IMO, not so much about relationships, but rather about the importance of love, even if it hurts you, even if it's not equally returned, because without that you can't be fully human. Power, or 'deserving', for me never really entered into it. If anything I'm getting a kind of almost old-fashioned sense of love as a force of nature that just is and that you neither can nor should try to escape from.

[tencrush]

I mean strong/weak as in the one who has all the power within the relationship and the one who is powerless. It's kind of hard to choose an appropriate word. Strong's certainly not a positive trait in this respect as that's the party (The Doctor in Who, Jack in TW) that ends up looking like a callous dickhead. And they're the hero of the piece. I can't watch that shit anymore, because in my mind that's fucked up, Russell's fucked up these characters that I want to like, and I hate him for it.

[freakishlemon.livejournal.com]

I wish I could stop thinking about fucking Torchwood already.

Yes. For both myself and my 13 year old brother, who I dragged into watching CoE (I did catch him up with series 1 and 2 afterwards) with me. Poor kid can't understand why CoE decided to fail and has been trying to console himself with the audiobooks, radioplays, and a sad Ianto inspired playlist I provided him.


This interaction between the doting, devoted (we as an audience might say "foolish") underdog and an uncommunicative, closed off stronger half, Russell really digs that shit.

During this past year I've gone back and started Doctor Who from the very very beginning (I'm up to Doctor #3 with Jo) and I was trying to sort out why the classic companion stories work so much better than the New!Who companions, and this is exactly it. Of all the classic companions I've seen, none of them have been as dependent and mindless as Rose. I can find redeeming things about Martha and I loved Donna, but Rose is the archetype from which RTD is basing all the other companions off of and it sucks. :/

I don't know how he's managed to keep this view of romantic relationships past puberty. After my brother finished season 2, he was genuinely confused as to why Jack and Ianto's relationship was suddenly weird and had a lack of making out.

[satanassa.livejournal.com]

Your little brother seems rather sweet! My husband has been avidly following the secret affair between Christian and Saeed on Eastenders. And before that he had many theories about how the Craig-JohnPaul romance would play out on Hollyoaks!

[rebeccama.livejournal.com]

via torchwood_three

There are a lot of writers- including some who normally can think of original stories- who end up writing the same romance over and over again. It has the unfortunate affect that even if you like the type it is predictable and gets boring after a while. Looking back at what I know about Doctor Who and QAF I also should have seen it coming.

As for his stubbornness it is the only thing that makes sense. It doesn't add up for a writer who has been around as long as he has to spend this much time and energy on what he says is only a couple of fans typing.

[svollga.livejournal.com]

Here via [torchwood_three].

You know, as much as I love RTD's works (and I really do), I see your point. And was seeing the same tendencies for some time. Actually, of all RTD's works I've seen, only Bob&Rose does not depict the same dynamics. (Thought Bob has a female friend with unrequited love to him.) And in Casanova, Casanova loves a woman who is unreachable to him. (He doesn't even have a chance to make love to her in his entire life.)

As far as I know, RTD himself has a boyfriend who is "mildly desinterested" in everything Who. They meet on weekends, because RTD can't live with anyone on a daily basis. (Bare facts, told in several interviews and The Writer's Tale.)

I don't want to psychoanalise anyone, and I actually don't want to judge RTD's "romantic' tendencies. I know them, I'm ready for them, I'll still watch his works with pleasure - not because I like this kind of relationship, but because I like his stories. But still, your essay nails it.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

You know, you were right about CoE so I find your comment about Jack very interesting. It would absolutely explain why JB is talking about wanting to do TW in the past storylines. Which he probably could sell to the beeb, if your prediction is true.

RTD sounds like he is a little mental on the con reports. I found his comments about the coffee thing really rude, and so dismissive. I do think he is dismissive, and the fact that Julie Gardener stepped in to say that it isn't a democracy. (Again where do they get that stuff? Twats)

RTD has been adamant before, and I agree with you, clearly has been made change his mind. He said no more Rose, he said no TW in Dr Who, why should we believe him now.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Hey JB stole that idea from ME!

Right after the UK showing, I suggested that the TW they could sell to the S1 & S2 fans without controversey would have to be set either 10,000 years in the future or back when he first came to earth. Earlier - hell, Ianto's not even a twinkle in anyone's eye; 10,000 yrs ahead - well, I guess I could begrudingly allow him to have a new love interet, LOL.

[rallyemadartep.livejournal.com]

THIS!!

Thank you for finally c learin up what's been puzzling me for the past few weeks. My brain is still all a-muddled from the happenings of TW3, and I still find myself in violent moods of depresison from time to time (I find losing a beloved tv show basically on par to losing a family member, go figure) and there were certain key elements which just weren't clicking for me.

And this does.

Why is it you make so much sense in this universe? :)

[andreth47.livejournal.com]

These are words of wisdom and trufax. Look at QaF...same damn dynamic. [ETA: I wonder if there isn't some generational/gender-specific stuff going on here too, at least with RTD's queer relationships. Russell comes from a generation (mine) that reached sexual maturity in the 70s: a time when casual sex was ballyhooed as the be-all-end-all of pleasure, and a time when gay men were first attempting to be out and couple-y at the same time. So there was this tug-of-war between the sexxin' and the couplin'. It seems to me that modern generations of queer folk have resolved that issue, to some extent. But Russell is still stuck in the old dilemma. So when he writes a queer relationship, it expresses that tension.] His m/f relationships are desexualized, so this particular little issue doesn't come up.

Or maybe I'm just talking out my ass. I dunno.

Russell? Get some therapy, get over it, and give us a new story, eh?

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

I started thinking about the similarities between J/I and D/R after hearing RTD answer a question about the accusations of homophobia - he said something like 'do your research.' Well, I know there's at least one knowledgeable LGBT fan who posted a well thought-out, well researched summary of why CoE looks bad from a Queer Studies point of view, so, I assumed he meant researching his past works.

Looking them over, he does seem to be writing the same relationship over and over again. So, now I'm thinking his writing is somewhat formulaic as well as cliched. :/

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'least one knowledgeable LGBT fan who posted a well thought-out, well researched summary of why CoE looks bad from a Queer Studies point of view'
Do you have a link. I love well researched arguments.

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

I'm convinced he's going to kill off all the companions in Who. He's gathering them all together and will wipe them out. I include Jack in this because I think he's going to 'cure' Jack just so he can kill him too. He 's not going to leave Moffat any of his toys to play with

[celestina5be.livejournal.com]

He 's not going to leave Moffat any of his toys to play with

That could be at Moffat's request.

Moffat wants a clean slate to start S5 to build his own who-universe. He's said he is not interested in old companions, families, enemies, monsters, etc... He wants to start his own mythology for S5 with his own characters. RTD has said in interviews that he promised to write the finale up to the point Moffat wants to start. I don't think he will kill off the companions though, well not all of them anyway.

JB was only on set for half a day (location, maybe he did some extra studio work) and he shares his screentime with Midshipman Frame (Russell Tovey), I don't think there will be enough time to have an entire sub-plot dedicated to him.

Moffat also wants nothing to do with the spin-offs so cross-overs or even coordinating the storylines would no longer be possible, a bit impractical when all three series are supposed to evolve in the same universe.
Maybe CoE was written to be the end. Only now with the unexpected rating success they have a bit of a dilema.

[wiley-nilly.livejournal.com]

Just curious: do you think Russell Boy-o is doing this because he wants to mess both shows up so much that no one will watch them now that he's not associated with them? If he's not interested in DW/TW any more, then no one can be?

After all, he's fled the country and is now holed up in Sunny California 'writing' or whatever his euphemism is for 'fucking off'.

I usually don't deal in speculation of this sort, but when you came up with maybe GDL emphatically turned down Russell, the Kingmaker's, romantic advances and therefore had to die, die, die, my cynic juices started to leak out of my ears.