Let me buy you a drink, oh, Russell T Davies...

[tencrush]

There's been a lot of guff on my friendslist about Chibnall's defense of the rape spray incident in Torchwood. If you're not aware of it, the gist being that Chibnall is of the opinion that because TPTB never INTENDED for the pheromone scenario to come across as date rape, those of us who see it that way ARE WRONG.

I think this attitude of authorial intent >>> audience perception is one that's very prevalent among the DW/TW powers that be at the moment, and it's one that bugs me immensely. Russell, for example, I'm sure, didn't INTEND for me to infer from the Doctor's refusal to take Mr. Copper along in the TARDIS in VotD, that the Doctor was holding out for a gullible blonde. But that IS how I saw it, and I'm not alone. And I'm sorry, Russell, because, yes, I'm talking to you, but that's just one of those things that happens. And I can understand why you call us ming mongs, because it's annoying when those sorts of things happen, and I sympathise, I really do, but the problem is, when things like that happen, you should treat is as a learning experience and sit down and evaluate what you're doing wrong. THINK MOAR, WRITE BETTER, that sort of thing. Instead, all we seem to get from you is a big two-fingered salute to the ming mongs who think things and see stuff you didn't mean for us to see. A big DEAL WITH IT, fuck you, here's your rape spray flashback because we're going to hit you about the head with our intent until you shut up.

I, personally, found the on screen portrayal of the relationship between Jack and Ianto in Torchwood ultimately unsatisfying, and, again, I think that's a problem of intent. Here, the problem gets even stickier, because not only does INTENT seem to be justification for glaring sins of omission (Example? Witness the BBCA Captain's Blog for the episode Adrift and the widely quoted quote from Jack "After Gwen had gone home, I just held on to Ianto for a couple of hours, as tightly as I could." Now, see, IF THAT IS YOUR INTENT, to show us a relationship in which that scenario might happen, then SHOW US a relationship in which that scenario does, or could happen. TELLING US your intent in the Captain's Blog doesn't work and just annoys the living crap out of us. YOUR INTENT IS PASTEDE ON.), but, what's worse is nobody seems to be making sure everybody intends the same thing. Remember that piece of A4 paper I suggested when it comes to Torchwood? There's another bit of advice I've got that goes along with it: That page? Make sure everyone's got THE SAME ONE.

Here's what I think you should do, Russell, I think you should THINK MOAR, and I think you should write better. I think you should embrace the vocal fanbase you have and see them, rightly, as the voice of the people. The ming mongs like myself, yeah, we're loud and we're annoying, but we're only SHOUTING AT YOU because we don't think we're being heard. Do you really think that if I met you down the pub, Russell, I would sit you down and should "LOL RUSSELL U RETARD" at you? No. I wouldn't. I'd offer you my constructive opinion on the various and assorted things I think need improving and I'd buy you a drink and praise and credit you for all the things you've done RIGHT. But I don't have that opportunity, so I shout at you loudly on the interwebs, because I KNOW you're reading, despite your declarations to the contrary, and I HOPE SINCERELY that you'll take away maybe 5% of what I'm saying and take it to heart. Because, funnily enough, if you scratch away the other 95% of righteous indignation and frustration, you'll probably be left with a few salient points that reasonably accurately sum up the viewpoints of your audience AS A WHOLE, not just the ming mongs. (I know FOR A FACT that there are normal fans out there who call Owen a rapist. Fans who don't read the internets and who don't vent their opinions anywhere, just normal people who thought Owen used a date rape drug and thought that made him a bit of a twat. TRUFAX, Russell, trufax.)

So that salient 5% point at the moment is this: SHOW ME WHAT IT IS YOU INTEND FOR ME TO SEE. PRETEND I DON'T KNOW YOUR INTENT AND MAKE IT CLEAR IN THE STORYTELLING. WHEN I SEE SOMETHING YOU DIDN'T INTEND, OR I DON'T SEE SOMETHING YOU DID, GO BACK, THINK MOAR, AND WRITE BETTER NEXT TIME. (AND BUY SOME A4 PAPER LIKE I SAID LAST TIME, SERIOUSLY.) We love our big gay shows, Russell, if we didn't, we'd STOP WATCHING AND SHUT THE HELL UP. So listen, learn your lessons, and appreciate that there are people out there who are willing to vocalise them. Do that for me and I'll happily get the drinks in and let you call me a ming mong ALL NIGHT LONG. I think it's kind of sexy.

Comments

[vertrauen.livejournal.com]

HEAR, HEAR.

*claps*

[tencrush]

AAAH! RAPIST!!

[vertrauen.livejournal.com]

Not him! He's the shy one with the heart of gold, a completely different person! If I wanted to play with the rapist, I would have used this one...

Oh. Wait. Hold on...

bollocks. ;)

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Not him! He's the shy one with the heart of gold, a completely different person! If I wanted to play with the rapist, I would have used this one...

Oh. Wait. Hold on...

bollocks. ;)'

Hahaha... They really messed up. I wonder who's brilliant idea it was for him to use alien pheromone spray. This is why I'm worried that if the writers ever do start paying attention to Ianto that they'll just screw him up.

[pontisbright.livejournal.com]

*applauds wildly*

I find it so difficult to resolve my genuine enjoyment of a lot of his output with the smug twattery that comes out of Rusty's gob whenever anyone dares suggest they might have fucked up. Especially since it's perfectly obvious that they DO listen: don't tell me the Owen turnaround of S2 wasn't something they worked for, once they realised they needed to. Same with the Martha referencing and the toned-down Donna in PiC.

Dear Rusty, I actually do like and respect you. The current status of Who seemed unthinkable 5 years ago, and that's a lot to do with you. Props. But that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to expect you to keep trying. Love from Me.

[bandgeek01.livejournal.com]

Very good :-)

Now as a newish fan can someone either message me or send me links to explain the whole There's been a lot of guff on my friendslist about Chibnall's defense of the rape spray incident in Torchwood. thing? Was that from season 1?

I've only seen a few season 1 episodes. Enlightenment would be wonderful.

Nicole

[tencrush]

Umm, yes, the first episode, which dealt with the team's tendencies to take things out of the Hub for their own personal enjoyment. Tosh had a thingy that read books or something (though I'm sure it was the same thingy that later opened doors, but OK), Suzie had the Glove which she couldn't seem to ever put down, and Owen had a pheromone spray, which he sprayed on an unsuspecting woman in the pub to make himself sexually irresistible. Unfortunately her boyfriend turned up, so he sprayed him as well, and then hailed a taxi and got the hell out. (Some people thought he was calling for a taxi so they could have a threesome, that really didn't seem to come across as the case to me, seriously.) It was OBVIOUSLY intended to be just a throwaway humourous scene, but a lot of people took offense and called Owen a date rapist as he was essentially altering the woman's state of mind so she would have sex with him, when she had in her unaltered state clearly said NO.

Chibnall recently said in an interview that he didn't intend for it to come across as date rape and therefore the audience SHOULDN'T read these things into it. I'd have to dig up a link somewhere because I have no idea where the interview was published, it was a few weeks back.

[bandgeek01.livejournal.com]

Thanks for filling me in. I'll have to watch the episode again. I totally didn't see it in that way as Owen being a rapist, I just saw him as almost being a slut (I know that's not the word I want to use but I can't think of what I want to use for the life of me.)

Don't worry about the Chibnall interview, I get the gist of what he was trying to say, I was more interested in learning what episode people were thinking.

Nicole

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

Not to be a ming mong, but he used the spray on himself, not the other people. Also, there was an interview with someone in Torchwood production crew way back when that clarified that they absolutely intended for that to be a threesome. That was the "See, Owen is bisexual" scene.

That scene never really bugged me that much. I suppose it should, because that really was questionable consent, but the point was to show Owen's disassociation from societal norms. How far over the edge he was. I thought it was very effective.

I'm not surprised Chibnall had to deal with it, but I am surprised that that was his response. It makes me glad he's moving on. I totally agree with you on authorial intent here. At some point it becomes moot.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Cripes! I want that link!

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

Yes, it was in Episode 1 Everything Changes. Would you like me to tell you the gist of what happened.

[bandgeek01.livejournal.com]

I think I just need to re-watch it. I have a general gist, but I think I need to re-watch some episodes to get a better understanding of things and theories that people have been posting about.

Nicole

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'THINK MOAR, WRITE BETTER'
If only they would listen.

'Remember that piece of A4 paper I suggested when it comes to Torchwood? There's another bit of advice I've got that goes along with it: That page? Make sure everyone's got THE SAME ONE.'
I wish the writers were on the same page. Maybe than they would decide weather or not Jack wants to sleep with Gwen or just be her friend.

[meleth.livejournal.com]

So I don't watch the Declassifieds, since they keep being RTD talking about all the BRILLIANTLY CLEVER things he's decided to do, and how cool he and the production team are. Is that where he's saying the fans need to stop yelling at him, or does that come out in interviews elsewhere?

[tencrush]

You don't watch them?? But they're all about how great everyone thinks everyone is. Especially the Torchwood ones, because those have the added gayness of John thinking everyone's FABULOUS.

Elsewhere. Magazines, mostly, not that I read any of them, I just read transcripts online when he calls everyone ming mongs again and everyone gets all upset because they think he's calling us ugly mongoloids, when in fact he is not.

[meleth.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I should watch them, then.

Also: ming mongs?

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

What the show really needs is a behind the scenes promotional thing where the makers talk about how it's rubbish and you shouldn't bother watching it, and insult each other's work. I'd watch that like wo, especially if there was mudwrestling.

[tencrush]

I totally would watch that, yeah.

I remember during the first season of Confidentials, eventually, every time Russell came on, we'd do an impersonation of Jane from Coupling at the tv and go "Me... me... me me me... me... ME!" because he could never seem to just say "these guys designed a brilliant monster", it was always "I came up with and then told these guys to design a brilliant monster that I brilliantly had the idea for." He's so retarded.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Ya know, I don't think that's quite true. Russell has no doubts about his own (very considerable) abilities, but he's full of praise for others.

[tencrush]

He HAS got considerable abilities, I don't dispute that, he's a very talented man, just don't get him talking about how wonderful he is, we'll be here all night.

I don't like his attitude of "I don't care what the ming mongs think" while he rewrites whole characters and shoves a load of I-was-shit-to-Martha fanservice into Who. He DOES care and I wish he'd stop denying it. I think it's GREAT he stuck some fanservice into PiC, it means he realises bits went wrong last season. Why can't he just admit that?

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Here I fear we must agree to disagree, because every time Russell puts his boot into the fanboys, I do this.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it be more useful to have this conversation with the producer, though?

[tencrush]

Russell has always told me that ultimately everything is HIS idea, so I'm taking everything as such.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

The pheromone spray scene didn't bother me. I do think it was a mistake, though, because it DID bother a LOT of people. Two years later, it's STILL the main thing some people remember about Season One.

But what are they going to do, run every scene idea past a committee to make sure they didn't accidentally put something stupid in it? Put up a poll on the internet?

It's their show, they're going to do what they want with it. I like it, so I watch it. Nobody is obligated to.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

The problem isn't that they did it, the problem is that they're telling us how we should interpret it. Using a drug to negate somebody's lack of consent to sex is rape. If you want to make a character a rapist-- fine, as you say, it's their show, rapists exist in real life, and even though they are scum of the earth, they often seem completely normal and sociable, they are still capable of complex feelings, etc (though that does not excuse them one iota).

Chibnall, however, seems to think that we should redefine rape so that we interpret the scene the same way that he does-- that's the problem.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

Not everyone interprets the scene the same way.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

Well, that is kind of my point.

I will say though, that if you interpret the scene as not-rape, then your personal definition of rape is at odds with the definition of rape as it is commonly understood-- that is, forcing someone to have sex without their consent. The woman that Owen approached made it quite clear that she wouldn't consent to sex with him (as for the man, he didn't even get asked), so Owen did something that removed their ability to decide-- she and her boyfriend had about as much say in the matter as if Owen had held a gun to their heads.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I tend to have a different definition for things when they occur on TV than when they occur in real life.

Car chase on TV = excitement
Car chase on my block = idiots

Sorry to have inadvertently been the equivalent of a car chase on my block on your LJ.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

Firstly, this isn't my LJ, I'm just commenting here, same as you. :)

Secondly, I do know what you mean about having different standards for RL and fiction: I mean, a LOT of stuff that Jack does are things that I'd look at VERY differenlty if they occurred IRL. I guess for me, using pheremones to negate consent is way to similar to a real life situation for me to look at it as a "fictional" situation (I know it's fictional in this instance, but there are so many real occurrances); while the need for a secret alien-hunting organisation is so far removed from anything that actually happens in the real world that I am more capable of believing that different ethical standards apply (and besides, the show does make this out to be a complex issue-- it's not clear-cut).

I'll also say that I think that viewing Owen as a rapist in 1.01 makes 1.03 much more poignant, when Owen experiences such strong empathy with a rape victim.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

We know now that what was intended was that the spray affected only Owen. How that heck would work I frankly have no idea, but the intention was not that the spray removed the couples' ability to consent, just that Owen became superhumanly attractive. The problem is that the spray's effect is so immediate and dramatic that it looks as though the couple have been hypnotised or something. If we knew the long-term effect on them, that'd help in interpreting the scene. As it stands, I think of it as "dubious consent". As well as a vast fuck-up; whatever the intention, didn't anyone, at any stage, realise what it looked like?

[mslauren2930.livejournal.com]

AMEN!

your post makes me want to go off on why I didn't find the movie "Wedding Crashers" to be all that funny. but then I guess some people have funky definitions of what constitutes rape. whatever. I guess, though, back to TW, this is probably why I've never liked Owen. he starts off manipulating people for sex and really, I'm supposed to like him after that? but then that's just me and that's just one of many reasons why I was never an Owen fan.

[darlys.livejournal.com]

I didn't construe it as date rape but if I had I think I would be more inclined to believe that Owen date raped that chick's boyfriend as she was sitting at the bar giving Owen the look over and then purposely goading him on by being difficult.

[holdingoff.livejournal.com]

bows down.

a big problem with RTD is and always has been that he believes his own press. he really does think he's perfect and as such, will never admit that he's screwed something up even if he does go back and fix it later on. i do find it interesting that chibnall is defending the date rape spray (which after fragments makes me wonder if its distilled jack pheromones) scene which just happens to be in the ONLY episode written by RTD.

i never watch the behind the scenes bits for TW or DW because I don't want to hear RTD or chibnall pat themselves on the back for being "witty" or "clever". for fuck sake, you are writers, you are SUPPOSED to be clever.

and if you don't want people to misinterpret what you are trying to say, then you need to do a better job of saying it. i seem to remember that as one of the first lessons in fiction writing way back in my uni days.

[tencrush]

Yeah, that's what I don't get, there's always this vague aura of hostility coming from the writing team, and Russell in particular, this attitude of "we're not listening to you, your opinion doesn't count, because you don't speak for the audience as a whole", after which they they stick loads of gratuitous lines into Who where the Doctor admits he was an asshole to Martha. It's the defensive posture of it. Why not just admit you made the Doctor look like a bit of a dick and you didn't mean for that to happen, so you're going to reevaluate, see what exactly you've done with the Doctor-companion dynamic, how it happened and try and fix things. Which is OBVIOUSLY what they're doing, but it all: NO we DON'T READ THE INTERNETS, NO, NO, NO, it's not because of ANYTHING YOU SAID, we're doing that out of the sheer brilliance of our brains.

and if you don't want people to misinterpret what you are trying to say, then you need to do a better job of saying it.
Word.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'NO we DON'T READ THE INTERNETS, NO, NO, NO, it's not because of ANYTHING YOU SAID, we're doing that out of the sheer brilliance of our brains.'
Why don't they just admit it, we know they do *cough* ManWhoreSpy-Ianto*cough*. Gareth even said that he has read some fan fiction.

[tencrush]

*cough* ManWhoreSpy-Ianto*cough*
Yeah, I do like to credit myself with having written at least a small portion of Torchwood series 2. I might put it on my cv.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

Too bad you can't get any money every Fragments airs.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'...(which after fragments makes me wonder if its distilled jack pheromones)'
When Jack said that, I was thinking that too. It was probably just a throw-away comment though.

[holdingoff.livejournal.com]

yeah, i still think it was one of those RTD-type "oh lets be ever so clever" kinda snot-nosed comments. i place it with the whole "lets make jack to be the face of boe" type of need to be ever so witty to the point of being annoying.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'lets make jack to be the face of boe' type of need to be ever so witty to the point of being annoying.'
Yeah. I still can't believe he did that *just* to annoy the on-line fandom.