HOUSE OF THE DEAD

[tencrush]

Ohhhkay, so, here we go... watch out, there's analysis and not much in the way of rage and yes, I cried, so there's that as well...


I HAVE A FEW POINTS TO MAKE.

ONE: Yes, I'm happy. Let's get that out of the way, there may be a whole boatload of questionable motives involved in this fanservicey fix it for CoE, but in the end, they don't really matter. Yes, I was serviced, but I'm a fan, so I feel I have the right to be serviced every once in a while. I've had my closure, and I feel that my objections to CoE were finally listened to by someone, anyone, even if it's just in a radio play. Somebody, and yeah, maybe it was just James Goss, fine, acknowledged my problems with it, all the way down to the Debenhams detail that I was convinced no one involved in CoE would even understand my objections to, let alone acknowledge. I feel heard, and vindicated and that's absolutely great.

So what did we get? Jack loved Ianto. Enough to go looking for him to fix that godawful goodbye he gave him. Finally. It redeems Jack a little, but even more than that, those last ten minutes redeem Ianto a lot. Ianto calling Jack on his funeral shit and his selfish behaviour, the offense he takes at being brought back to assuage Jack's guilt over his death, that's my Ianto, not the lovesick puppy he turned into in CoE, no, clever, perceptive, knows damn well what's going on Ianto, the Ianto on a par with Jack, not the Ianto at the bottom of the pedestal looking up and begging for scraps but proper Ianto, the Ianto I love. That, more than anything, has made me happy. And also the Debenhams thing, whatever was going on there, the point was made quite clearly that Ianto's father was a tailor and whatever that throwaway line on CoE may have been about, it wasn't about revealing him to be a lying liar. The father thing was a big deal in this, and again, it was something I think needed to be said. CoE left a weird impression with a lot of people, the broken leg, the Debenhams thing, it all smacked slightly of possibly abuse or definitely some sort of daddy issues, and those combined with Ianto's weird hero-worshippy attitude towards Jack in CoE really soured the whole Jack/Ianto thing and made it seem just a little bit squicky. That, for me at least, has been jossed a bit, and I'm feeling less bad about their dynamic having heard all this. So yay!

Having said that, it doesn't fix Children of Earth in any way. Jack was cold and weird and dismissive towards Ianto in that entire series and no amount of glossing over will fix that or, for me, make it watchable again. It doesn't change Jack's behaviour, it doesn't uncockblock the beans, as it were. What's done is done. I've never watched CoE again, not even once, and I don't plan to do so (except for the fast forwarding for screenshots), and I haven't changed my opinion about it, I still think it was shit and it wasn't Torchwood and I wish my characters hadn't been slotted into a completely different show in tone and feel. But that is done, it has been done, and as I've said before, the one thing I learned from CoE and the beans in particluar is that at any given moment in time, Ianto Jones is, in fact, randier than Jack Harkness, and given what we know about how horny Jack Harkness is, that's REALLY SAYING SOMETHING. Was it worth five hours of my time and three solid weeks of not being able to stop crying to learn that? Actually, yeah, it probably was. Ianto Jones is a randy sex-crazed little goat, hell yeah I needed to know that and I'm glad I do. Possibly not the message I was supposed to be taking from it, I'm sure there was something about evil and corrupt governments and shit, but I prefer the one about the sex.

THERE WAS META! Well, for me there was meta, because something made me laugh really hard and it was that whole thing about Ianto not remembering dying, the way Jack described what happened and Ianto responding with "you'd think I'd remember that" all veered off into "that doesn't sound like me at all, was I grossly out-of-character or something?" in my head and I ended up giggling my arse off. I read it as a nod to fandom and the fingers-in-ears nah nah nah none of CoE ever happened in my head response from some corners (including mine), because it struck me as such a knowing and dare I say even affectionate nod to what happened to Ianto and how we took it. So, yeah, there's that, that made me smile, dammit it really did. And yes, of course, there was the other meta moment. No, given the chance, Ianto Jones does not want to come back to life or come back to Torchwood. If only one person can accept that one move on after listening to this, then that's a great thing, because that whole faction of I WANT HIM BACK GIVE HIM BACK TO US GODDAMMIT is still out there, and frankly, that depresses the hell out of me. I've never wanted him back, I've only ever wanted him to get the respect he deserved and I've got it. Fuck me, yes I'm grateful for that.

I AM SUSPICIOUS OF YOUR MOTIVES. Do I feel pandered to? Patted on the head and told to move along? Do I think this was meant to make me want to watch Miracle Day? Yeah, of course I do. But I'm not ragey about it, because I'm too happy about what I've been given. Am I still angry, even after all this time? Yeah, I am, but not about this, I'm angry at the way fans were treated for their reaction, they way we were belittled, the snide little remarks, the downright dismissal from RTD, his refusal to back down and acknowledge that people were affected by what he's done. Goddammit man, you CREATED all this, wasn't the whole point that we were supposed to love the characters, wasn't the whole point that we would become attached to them, otherwise what the hell's the point of watching? The least you could do is be fucking gracious about it, instead of dragging up the point, over and over again, that we were foolish to love a fictional character because at the end of the day, you'll kill them simply because you can. I'm still angry about that, and that won't go away, probably not ever. I am ranting again, like I just said, I'm still angry, but I'm no more or less angry having been given this nugget of Ianto redemption, and that's good. I can imagine there are people who think it's too little too late, who feel manipulated, and I felt quite tempted to react that way mysef, but I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth right now, I just can't.

I'm still not watching Miracle Day. I gave it the benefit of the doubt, hoping it might spark my interest, but my Torchwood died in CoE the moment that pterodactyl was forgotten about by the guy that created the damn show. But I can sleep a bit more easily at night right now, and I'm thankful for that. It was a great ride while it lasted. And Ianto's back on my header, he's never leaving again. Except at Christmas. Christmas is for Clark Griswold. Obviously.

Comments

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Pie for Ianto or pie made of Ianto?

[tencrush]

PIE MADE OF IANTO. Torchwood: Miracle Day is onna Beeb tonight, you should totes watch it, it is American and AWFUL. There are asplosions.

On second thought, don't watch it. It really is quite awful and I'm pretty sure it will transpire that the entire plot has nothing to do with aliens yet again, but with EVIL CORPORATIONS DOING EVIL THINGS. I think Rusty has turned into Michael Moore.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

DID JACK EAT IANTO'S BODY TO BE WITH HIM FOREVER OR UNTIL HE DONE A POO? THAT'S KIND OF SICK, DUDE.

But I liiiiiked CoE so maybe I will like this one as well? It's got Gwen in it and Rhyyyyyys and erm well okay I can't think of any other reason it might be any good, but Barrowman is always good for a mean-spirited chuckle or two.

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

OMG, you nailed it! RTD HAS TURNED INTO MICHAEL MOORE.

And I hate both of them equally.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

House of the Dead was total fan service but it doesn't bother me much because Jack and Ianto were redemed in this story and because Jack said I LOVE YOU!!!!

Ianto's death in COE never did feel finished somehow!

[rivier.livejournal.com]

Yes, basically all this with a cherry on the top of the Ianto pie. The only difference with you is I would like Ianto alive, yes. He's too much fun to throw away at 26 or 27 or whatever it is. I want the Rift to spit him back out as its dying act, somewhere someplace sometime, and he can get on, briskly and competently, with being the god-sized motherfucking badass hero he always was, to hell with Jack Harkness. And get shacked up with a series of attractive and deeply grateful people, because I think he enjoys serial monogamy with creative sex on tap and someone else's kitchen cupboards and bookshelves to rearrange more efficiently after.

I'm never going to stop feeling angry at RTD (or falling into a rant at the sight of his initials) and actually I think it would be a sign of weakness or dementia if I did. That bastard shat on us all and thought it was hilarious, which ho ho, maybe it was, trolling half a fandom that way. He also thinks his actions and especially his words will never have the capacity to turn round and bite him right in the testicles, and I think he's going to find out this is not the case, at which point all the ho ho hos will belong to ME.

For the handful of refuseniks who might have been 'converted' by the fanservice element of House of the Dead, and decided they'd give MD a try, I'll bet you five shiny groats there'll be a bunch more who will go into it tonight or into Ep 2 tomorrow, fresh with the memories of this week's plays generally, which were very much in the style of the first two series, right down to the total emotional wrench of yesterday's - and find the comparison isn't doing MD any big favours. I'm sure there will be lots of people who will love it, even quite a few who liked all of Torchwood so far, and especially the ones who thought CoE was an improvement on the first two years. But they would have watched without the radio plays. As devious marketing manipulation of gullible fans goes, in that respect alone House of the Dead was a bit shit.

[tencrush]

I'm with you on the never stopping feeling angry bit, yeah. And I do believe it will bite him in the arse, he shat on the hardcore fanbase, he belittled them and he made them feel bad and stupid for loving something he wrote, that's NOT a good way to treat your fans. As it stands at the moment, Miracle Day may have a modicum of success, but that fandom-wide buzz that used to accompany new TW material is gone, and I don't think it will ever come back, he's broken the fanbase up to such an extent, not with his authorial decision, but mostly with his own reactions, that they'll never get together and hype the shit out of that motherfucker again. HE did that, HE'S responsible and I think that will ultimately be his undoing. For the record, I don't think MD will go down too well in the UK, I think it's fairly obvious from the lack of promotion and the six-days-behind scheduling that the BBC is settng it up for a British ratings fail, that coupled with Bad Wolf Production's successful tax break application to relocate to LA on a permanent basis for a possible second series tells me the BBC have, in fact, already pulled out of any possible sequel.

Maybe we could pitch a spinoff of the spinoff to the BBC once Torchwood fucks off to the States for good? The Rift spits out Ianto and he singlehandedly takes over protecting ALL OF THE BRITISH ISLES from alien invasion ON HIS OWN, with a big gun. And he sexes up half the population while doing it AND he makes them coffee and breakfast and alphabetises their cd collections before disappearing in a puff of dust, leaving them swooning, more organised, sexually satisfied and less peckish than they were before he arrived.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

OOOooooooo!!!!! Wouldn't THAT be FUN! Ianto manipulating the Rift in John Hart style, appearing in a flash of light, doing his thing, and then disappearing in a flash of light.

He could do that all over the UK (or wherever) in current day. It'd be relatively inexpensive to film, a series of individual episodes, too.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

I like your plot ideas and would like to sign up to that newsletter ^^

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

Maybe we could pitch a spinoff of the spinoff to the BBC once Torchwood fucks off to the States for good? The Rift spits out Ianto and he singlehandedly takes over protecting ALL OF THE BRITISH ISLES from alien invasion ON HIS OWN, with a big gun. And he sexes up half the population while doing it AND he makes them coffee and breakfast and alphabetises their cd collections before disappearing in a puff of dust, leaving them swooning, more organised, sexually satisfied and less peckish than they were before he arrived.

You are my effin' hero.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

and find the comparison isn't doing MD any big favours.

That was my thought, too. It made me wonder if it was a deliberate attempt on the Beeb's part to lower the ratings of MD so they have an easy way to get out of the TW business by being able to point out that the ratings don't support pouring more money into TW.

I did, however, write Starz and tell them I would not be subscribing to their channel to watch MD solely due to RTD's public attitude toward his viewers - snail-mailed their CEO, COO, and Programming peeps with that message. It may be petty on my part (because I knew I could acquire a doesn't-add-to-ratings viewing of MD), but it made me feel a little bit better.

I still haven't listened to the last play yet. I think I'll save it for the weekend, and follow that up by watching ep 2 and snarking it.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

It was total, utter fanservice, showing that they full well understand what fans want to see (or hear in this case) when a character dies. So what the frell was CoE supposed to be? I prefer this ending, but I feel like they've laid out some breadcrumbs to lure that elusive Fangirl back into Miracle Day. It seems too deliberate to be anything else.

[tencrush]

Wel, yeah, it does, but I think most people who were ebing pandered to by this fanservice are savvy enough to know they're being pandered to, and most of the reactions seem to be along the lines of Oh, you want my viewership now, do you? I'm sorry, I thought there were only nine of me and we didn't really matter in the scheme of the huge commercial and critical success you're expecting Miracle Day to be, sorry, I've made other plans. So in that respect, I think this exercise was a big fail.

[lukita.livejournal.com]

Too little too late! I has moved on. :D

I'm glad to know they redeem Jack and Ianto in the play, still not watching MD, or anything RTD does in the future for that matter.

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm watching "Miracle Day," and I'm having a blast tearing it apart. Schadenfruede is tasty stuff. But now I can watch it without the residual angst of "Wait, these characters get it, but not him?" It sucks feeling that way. This is allowing me to let it go.

All that being said? I'm not paying for STARZ to do it, and I'm watching through creative means that will not boost anyone's ratings. My own bit of petty rebellion.

BTW, I hadn't thought that far about the scenes you mention in your meta, but that is a brilliant interpretation, and my head canon is now yours.

Also, the lying liar who lies? I was actually OK with that, mostly because everyone lies and has their reasons. I never saw it as making him evil or bad, it made him richer to me. I liked him as a character that kept some things close to the vest. But I am SO GLAD the whole "poor abused Ianto" thing has been played down. God, the "rape/sexually abuse/torture" Ianto contingent better pay attention to this. I hate the snuff fic.

[rivier.livejournal.com]

James Goss tweeted (IN REPLY TO MY VERY OWN QUESTION! /easily thrilled) that they had to cut loads out of the whole thing, including us learning at some point that the 'betrayal' Ianto's dad is guilty of is that he left Ianto's mother - which would make lots of good sense for everything from the awkward wanting to impress the absent Dad to feeling conflicted and unable to properly relate to him. Not to mention a whole bunch of Ianto-isms that I can now see an even better fit for (looking after others, intense loyalty, feeling empty until he finally fell in love for the first time...) So that's staying in my personal canon, yes.

[radiant-pip.livejournal.com]

As for the tailor stuff, James Goss tweeted that:

"one thing that fell by the wayside - ianto's dad worked in menswear at debenhams but always wished he'd done better . And a disappointed Ianto told people he was a tailor."

For what that's worth...

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I figured a man who worked in menswear could easily have known a lot about fabric and cut of a suit etc, I thought that was OK. I've worked in shops, you learn those sort of things!

[ella-caramella.livejournal.com]

I read Goss's tweet and you're right in commenting with 'for what that's worth'.

What comes off the play is not what Goss states. He didn't tell us the story of a disappointed Ianto who lies about his father's job. There's nothing in the radio play to back up that.

What comes off the play, what is indeed canon, is that Mr. Jones talks like a tailor and that's what's on record as canon now, not what the writer says in interviews or tweets or to his friends, likely because he read some comments (mine included) of people asking if he was rejecting RTD's petty insinuation and he feels like denying it for fear of ending up on RTD's black book.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I agree with you 100%. I'm happy about the Radio play. It certainly should put an end to some fans insistence that Ianto was just 'a part-time shag.' But am I going to watch MD - no and hell no. The little I saw (as I searched for fun screen shots) was boring, a bizarre mix of overly silly and serious moments, and a baby smiling while her mom fired a hand gun at a helicopter out a window.

My only interest in MD is to learn whether the 'respectful' mentions of Ianto joss the radio play in any way. I don't have any trust in TPTB - and I wouldn't put it past them to turn the knife one more time. (And why not, RTD has a new project to work on, so as you predicted, Jack's dead, and TW will be done at the end of this).

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

This is the best post about the play I've read. I agree with everything you say. I'm not convinced RTD had much to do with this. Of course he had to have some involvement, but his name wasn't anywhere on it, and he's too busy with the important people in Hollywood, who apparently represent LGBT people on telly much better than the British ever did. (Hey I'm still bitter, who knew)

Anyhow it showed me that TPTB did listen, and have responded, and bless James Goss and his little heart. What a sweet thing to write.

I felt desperately moved by the father, especially with his little mobile phone on the charger, makes me feel a bit sad even thinking about it, it's such a Dad thing to do, and it was all so tragic.

I think the SIJ people seriously should be delighted, they were listened to, they got Ianto back. Fact is that Ianto pre CoE was the best that was going to happen, I personally would love it if pre CoE could have been on the telly somehow, but this is much better than nothing, and nothing is what would have happened if there had been no fan reaction.

[ella-caramella.livejournal.com]

...and nothing is what would have happened if there had been no fan reaction.

Totally agree with you here. If there had been no reaction sure as hell Ianto would be totally forgotten by now and probably Gwenwood (with Jack and Gwen true love) would be on FOX, getting all those big ratings that it is so not getting at all now ;P

[radiant-pip.livejournal.com]

I don't know why Jack couldn't bother to go to Ianto's funeral. Now, that totally conflicts with the post-COE story GDL wrote for Torchwood magazine. Can't even have that bit of continuity. ;)

Just listened to parts of it again. Anybody who thinks Ianto can still be alive...well, that bomb went off awfully fast after Ianto said goodbye. Not bloody likely...

JB was going on and on about Russell Tovey again in a new joint interview he did with RTD (and according to RTD, Alonso is Jack's 51st century boyfriend??? OK...I thought he was from the present day, and at this rate Brad the Barman will probably be considered a boyfriend). I wonder if he did that before the radio plays were recorded, 'Cause if he's going to be drooling over anybody, it should be GDL. He's been looking GOOD lately.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

He's been looking great. Is it married life? Is it the need to find work? Was slacker!Gareth just a phase? Whatever, he's looking great, and says he's stopped smoking, which I wish him the best. That's a hard nut to crack.

Anybody who thinks Ianto can still be alive

Was he really alive though? Or did Syriath just create an extra-special torment for Jack in the form of a real, warm, solid ghost who doesn't know he's dead?

[qafkinnetic.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with everything you said here!
I didn't notice the meta stuff, but now that you mention it, it really is meta, isn't it?
The bit about Ianto's father, though, I disagree with. I don't know if you consider the Torchwood radio plays and Torchwood novels to be canon. I do. In The Sin Eaters, there's a scene which describes Ianto's regret at lying to Jack about his father, and why he regrets it. I don't think he was ever a master tailor. Maybe he wanted to be, but I don't think he ever was one. But I don't know, that's just my interpretation of the line in CoE and the scene in The Sin Eaters and the exchange in House of the Dead. Yours is different and that's okay too.
And I completely agree with your anger towards RTD, and the treatment of the fans and the brush off they got, how their anger and disappointment was dismissed and belittled. RTD doesn't seem to realize how much the fans connect with characters, how attached to them they get.
Unlike you, I am attempting to watch Miracle Day. But I do agree, Torchwood changed and morphed into something else, something not as likeable, with CoE. It's not the same show, it hasn't got the same charm. So far with MD, I have no idea what to think. But I do know that it's not the show I fell in love with.