Topher is my Dollhouse Ianto

[tencrush]

I think it was alba17 who watched Dollhouse episode 13, Epitaph One, the other day, I meant to comment about it but life got in the way, so I'll make a post instead.

The reason I want to post about it, is because it reminded me of Children of Earth. In as much as it was ALMOST ENTIRELY UNLIKE CHILDREN OF EARTH IN EVERY WAY IMAGINABLE. And yet... in many ways it is the same. The brief was more or less the same, it's a coda to a series, that can be seen as an end, or as a beginning for a new series. It's completely different in tone and setting, the main characters are given a smaller role in favour of the guest characters, and it's... depressing. All very much like Children of Earth. And yet... it was fantastic and it's made me very happy that Dollhouse has been renewed.

There is somehow, a love for the characters and the universe that shines through in the writing of Dollhouse that Torchwood lacks, or at least CoE lacked. It all made perfect sense, it all fit seamlessly into the world that was created in episodes 1-12, despite the fact that is was a completely new story, characters had developed, time had passed, stuff had happened that we weren't aware of, and yet it all fit somehow. I'm in awe of writing like that, writing that can stay so true to the characters and the mood of the show. I was in awe of this episode. I won't go so far as to review it, I'd have to watch it again, but there's two things that jumped out at me.

One was Topher. Topher's my Dollhouse Ianto. I love him irrationally despite not really knowing that much about him. (I also ship him with his boss, so, you know, that's good. But beside the point.) And Topher had a big dramatic scene. Now Ianto's big dramatic scene made me cry simply because it meant Ianto really was dying and the spoilers were true, but didn't actually emotionally affect me because the scene itself was ridiculously overblown and melodramatic. I laughed at it through my tears. Compare that with Topher's scene, there's absolutely no contest. His realisation that he had thought of this, that this genius thing was so genius that it must have been his idea, that scene really did break my heart. Human drama and emotion and conflict and realisation and owww... it actually physically stung me, brought tears to my eyes and it hurt. And that's why I'm in awe of this. Death is death, and it's piss easy to yank a tear out of your viewers by killing someone off, but this? This is a fucking craft, and it's beautiful. True to the character and heartbreaking, absolutely beautiful stuff. Your mileage, I'm sure, may vary, but I'll take this sort of thing over dramatic death scenes any day.

And the second thing was quite simple, this was world destruction on a massive scale, very much like Children of Earth and yet... there was some hope. Just a glimmer, but there was hope and I was happy to have watched it and I felt good, in spite of what had happened to this universe, I felt okay about it and felt like maybe everything would turn out alright despite the fact that everyone was completely fucked. And that's the one thing Children of Earth lacked for me, and the one thing that above all else made me hate it so much. A ray of hope, it's not that fucking hard to write that in, it's not that fucking hard to leave an audience not feeling completely assraped, even when you destroy your 'verse, it can still be done.

Kudos, Whedon, I think I might decide to start loving you again.

Comments

[aresnz.livejournal.com]

I watched the first couple of eps and never watched again; I think another show was on the same time as this. Anyway, you make a great point about having hope. With COE we were left feeling this very well could be the end..no feelig of hope. Apparently with the ep of Dollhouse, Whedon had a sad episod but left viewers with a feeling there was still hope for things to get better. That means an awful lot.

The one things I'll say for COE, they weren't sure if the show would be renewed, so they made Day 5 to be seen as a finale if that were to be the case.

Your points are well taken. I may just have to get the dvd set and catch up.

Thanks Joss Whedon....


Lori

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'The one things I'll say for COE, they weren't sure if the show would be renewed, so they made Day 5 to be seen as a finale if that were to be the case.'
You could say the same thing about Dollhouse episode 13; it wasn't shown on t.v. because it was suppose to be the series final if Dollhouse hadn't have been picked up for a second season.

[tencrush]

And yet it was more hopeful than Children of Earth. It could easily have been shown, it really wouldn't have posed a problem.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'And yet it was more hopeful than Children of Earth.'
Yeah, every time someone tries to tell me that I didn't like CoE because it was dark, 'real drama' and not hearts and flowers I want to say, 'no, I didn't want a happy ending (the only person who seems to get a happy ending in Torchwood is Gwen. Dead is dead, unless you're Rhys), just a hopeful one'. A pregnant Gwen only gives me hope that Torchwood will be the Gwen Cooper Show. I've never found Gwen all that interesting, so I think I'll take a pass.

[aresnz.livejournal.com]

Was that ep on the dvd's or someone gave you a download? Very interesting ino about this. Thanks.

Lori

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

It's on the dvds. The dvds are out in the States, I don't know about the U.k. They also put the unaired pilot on the dvds too-among other things.

[aresnz.livejournal.com]

Great. Thanks for the updated info.


Lori

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

i've never watched dollhouse
maybe i should

[tencrush]

It takes a while to get into, it's not the most easily accessible show because of its premise. Dushku isn't the most easy to like character, so you have to get your jollies elsewhere, which kind of happens gradually.

[shighola.livejournal.com]

I completely agree! Watching Epitaph One I was dismayed to see what had happened to the 'verse, but ultimately I was confident that things would get better and even more psyched for the upcoming season. To see how the characters would deal with these challenges.

As opposed to RTD's burn everything to the ground technique but still expect us to show up as usual the next day.

[tencrush]

Yeah, I don't really get how CoE is supposed to stoke me for another series. I can't actually imagine it stoked any new viewers for more of the same either, unless they really took to Gwen (which I just can't imagine, full stop, but that's because of S1 and 2). As a one-off, sure, but as a starting point, absolute shit.

[as1mplegirl.livejournal.com]

As a one - off CoE would have been fine. As an end to Torchwood as a series it could scrape by but as a part of a continuing show which one would assume they wanted another series of. Can't really see it.

You can have characters changed by developments. You don't have to have Star Trek TNG where people end the episode in the same place they started it but there's a difference between changed by developments and totally gutting the show of anything that drew people to it ie CoE and end of Blake's 7.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

For better or worse, I have several friends who were new viewers of TW and loved CoE. (Cause I told them they should watch it).

Why - they have no attachment to the characters. They have nothing to compare it to. So for them, it is a stand-a-lone. They don't know about Owen and Tosh so for them one dead character who had no emotional depth means nothing to them.

Will they watch the new series? The answer I hear most often is, well probably, but I'm not going to sit around for 18-24 months and think about it. (or buy the books, merchandise, etc). If I hear about it when it comes back, I'll probably check it out.

To them, its just an action/sci-fi show. A lot don't care if Captain Jack comes back or not. Or Gwen. Or any of the other characters. The Hub? What's that. Weevils, what's that? Cardiff, where's that?

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'To them, its just an action/sci-fi show. A lot don't care if Captain Jack comes back or not. Or Gwen. Or any of the other characters. The Hub? What's that. Weevils, what's that? Cardiff, where's that?'
I do have to wonder if I would feel differently about CoE if I hadn't seen any of Torchwood before. I would probably think, 'Looks cool but what's the big deal? It's just like every other dark sci-fi show out there.' That's what I thought when I was watching the sci-fi mini series Defying Gravity (although they did have a awesome looking space ship) or as the tag line calls it Grey's Anatomy in Space. I don't even like Grey's Anatomy when it's on Earth.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

These friends are not normally sci-fi fans. One watches mainly sitcoms, the other most CSI/L&O type shows, another said she normally hates sci-fi, but liked the whole political sublot thing and thinks Gwen was awesome. (She's gone back now and is watching S1 and told me that Gwen in S1 is annoying - now she gets why I'm not overly fond of the character).

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info.

'(She's gone back now and is watching S1 and told me that Gwen in S1 is annoying - now she gets why I'm not overly fond of the character).'
What does she think of S2 Gwen? I've never had any feelings about Gwen one way or the other. I've always found her kind of boring. Probably because no matter what she does, nothing bad happens to her and she's never had to face the consequences of her actions.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I don't think she's gotten that far yet. But today at work she told me she thought Gwen was nosy and not very bright (I didn't ask what episode she had watched).

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

Oh. I guessing if there is a series 4 I'll be all about how awesome Gwen is. Being leader of Torchwood, a devoted wife (What do you mean she had an affair with Owen? Who's Owen?) and mother and probably Jack's love interest once Rhys dies.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

""And the second thing was quite simple, this was world destruction on a massive scale, very much like Children of Earth and yet... there was some hope.""

I think we were meant to take Gwen's baby as hope. :)

[tencrush]

I didn't, though. I know that was supposed to be it, but it didn't console me wrt there being any future for the TW verse as we know it. It was a new and different thing. A shot of Myfanwy flying off would have consoled me, a pregnant Gwen doing something in the remains of the Hub would have consoled me, but a pregnant Gwen didn't give me any hope for Torchwood, just for Gwen, and that wasn't enough.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I was being sarcastic in case you weren't sure. :)

[urnssadomen.livejournal.com]

Fist of all, I ship Topher and Bosslady as well and just like you, I'm a canon slasher (I think that was the word you used).

I was very excited when Whisk (her name escaped me for the moment) told Boss Lady that Topher won't take meds w/o her. It was actually sweet in a broken sort of way. For once Whedon actually managed to make a good pair and good characters (mind you that doesn't happen a lot on US TV, the parings usually annoy me; Whedon's characters in general annoys me more often than not, but I like the bosslady and Topher from the start). And then I was hit by the most heartbreaking scene and you put my feeling in words beautifully.

Like I said, Whedon's characters are in general not my cup of tea, but I still kept watch his show, b/c he can write great and powerful stories. As for RTD... he's just in a completely different, lesser league, thus I won't even bother to compare the two... writing-ability wise.

[tencrush]

I'm not a slasher, I don't even really often ship people, full stop, but I totally ship Topher and Adele. Thay're hot and cute together and the older woman-younger man thing totally makes me happy in my pants.

[urnssadomen.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I forgot which phrase you used, too lazy to look it up. But if I remember right, the emphasize was on only liking the canon pair.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Death is death, and it's piss easy to yank a tear out of your viewers by killing someone off, but this? This is a fucking craft, and it's beautiful.'
That is so true. I think RTD wants to be Joss, but he doesn't have writing skills to pull it off. RTD relies on melodrama too much.

[alba17.livejournal.com]

Oh, glad to see someone else talking about this. I had a very similar reaction. Epitaph was vaguely similar to COE in its apocalyptic qualities, yet the main character survived in some form, and the end was hopeful. In contrast, COE's end was just depressing. The only "hope" is Gwen's pregnancy, about which I couldn't care less.

Topher's dramatic scene was very painful to watch and Adele comforting him was just heartbreaking. (Personally, I find Topher kind of irritating, or at least, the actor's performance of him is too full of quirks that are supposed to convey "eccentricity" but just annoy me. I think I'm developing a thing for Adele though.)

felt like maybe everything would turn out alright despite the fact that everyone was completely fucked Yes, exactly! COE left me with the opposite feeling. My show was destroyed and so were its characters. I'm still kind of in denial about the whole thing.

I might have to re-watch Epitaph because there was a lot to absorb. And I don't have any idea how this is supposed to fit in with the regular series story.

Now Ianto's big dramatic scene made me cry simply because it meant Ianto really was dying and the spoilers were true, but didn't actually emotionally affect me because the scene itself was ridiculously overblown and melodramatic. Oh, God, this is exactly how I felt about it. I did not cry during the actual scene the first time I saw it - the main impact was that, well, Ianto was dying, not the actual way they played it out. Not to mention the stupidity that caused it.

[tencrush]

I was very impressed with Epitaph, I thought it was marvellous, despite the fact that it did the same kind of level of show-destroying as CoE, but just in a good way, in a tell-me-more way.

Adele's hot.

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

I keep hearing good things about this series, lately. (I kinda lost interest in Whedon's Buffy-verse - well before that show's episode of LBGT wank - but I still miss Firefly.) I'll be on the lookout for the S01 DVDs.

[flohkatie.livejournal.com]

I can't say anything about Dollhouse, but compared to CoE everything else looks like a walk in the park. I'm happy it gets a second season for the same reason I don't want Torchwood to continue, because Whedon seems to know how to walk the fine line between author's creativity (or egocentricity) versus demands of a "despicable" fandom. For me CoE was the worst case scenario of how to handle a show with two previous seasons to consider. I'm so much less critical to other scripted dramas because of that experience. Other writers should thank RTD for that. I still think that at least they should have promoted CoE as the finale of Torchwood. But obviously RTD wants a new audience, which is understandable, because they don't know what a one trick pony he is, yet. Maybe some day he may run out of an audience, but I'm not deluded, there will always be people who dwell on melodrama and doom and gloom.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I'm so much less critical to other scripted dramas because of that experience. Other writers should thank RTD for that.'
I can see it now: T.V. executive: He killed off half the cast but at least he didn't Russel it.

'But obviously RTD wants a new audience, which is understandable, because they don't know what a one trick pony he is, yet.'
Hahaha... that makes so much sense. I can't wait until the new audience figures out that his characters are nothing more than canon fodder (except for his female self-inserts) and his 'romantic relationships' are one character doting on a cold jerk and let's not forget his 'plane falls, everyone dies' endings. I say that as someone who never had any experience with his writing before Torchwood and now that I know what else he's written, it's SO OBVIOUS.

[rallyemadartep.livejournal.com]

ack. and now i really want to see ep 13!

*must wait for dvd*.