Still... angry...

[tencrush]

Look, see what inarticulate nonsense I posted in November of 2006 and you'll get a rough idea of why I watched Torchwood. Seriously, I was watching the Who spinoff and I was already contemplating jacking it in when Cyberwoman happened to me and I became enthralled by Ianto Jones. So, yes, I'm a rabid Ianto fangirl, always have been. I fell in love with a fictional character, dudes, that's never happened to me before. Well weird. This just as an aside, there's a point to it which I'll get to in a bit.

The more I think about Children of Earth, the angrier I get, and the more pointless and RTD's-hammer-of-God-like Ianto's death becomes to me. See, when I think about the whole story, I am left with The Lesson which I think was trying to be put across, which is that a Sacrifice only really counts if it's a personal one. If you are not willing to put your OWN BALLS on the chopping block then you are not fit to decide the fate of anyone else's. It's a quite painful truth, and as such, I don't think it's a bad message. The fact that Ianto had to die to put Jack in the position of having nothing left to lose really negates that message for me. In fact, if Ianto HADN'T died, and Jack had decided to sacrifice Stephen, that message would have come across a lot more clearly. Or if he'd decided to sacrifice Ianto. Or Ianto's nephew. Or niece. (That would have been a great place to go, dudes. Because then he could have lost Ianto, leaving him with nothing on this earth. Ianto could have retconned himself to forget about Jack ever having existed, because Jack just brings hurt and man!pain to the party and Ianto can't take it anymore. There's a million places you could have taken it and given Jack equal amounts of angst, yet still made the message clearer and not killed Ianto. I digress.)

But I want to make it clear, I'm not angry that Ianto's dead, I expected Ianto to die, I'm angry about the manner in which it was done. I know there's petitions and all sorts going on about bringing Ianto back, but frankly, I'm not interested. If Russell chooses to bring Ianto back I'll be EVEN ANGRIER, because then I'll feel EVEN MORE like he's been stamping on our toy to make us cry, except now he's giving us a lollipop to make us feel better just so he can pinch us again when we're not paying attention and laugh and laugh and laugh. I'm not participating in any charity drives or petitions or online wailing in that sense because A)I don't want Ianto back. Ianto's deathbed has been made and anything more would feel like cynical manipulation and I already feel like I've been buttfucked by RTD and it's not a pleasant feeling because he didn't bring any fucking lube and B)I don't want to give Rusty the satisfaction of even thinking for one moment that he is responsible for my emotional reaction. It'll just feed his ego to think that he caused THIS MUCH UPSET. The thing is, Russell is NOT responsible for how much I loved Ianto as a character. He rode the bandwagon when he realised the character's popularity but he did NOT create it, and I will not participate in any activity which would make him feel for one moment that he DID. Yes, you know I credit GDL with a lot of what Ianto actually was on screen, but there was more to it than that and the thing that really contributed to the greatness of Ianto Jones was the total ABSENCE of any real overriding leadership within the Torchwood production team and the resulting freedom that GDL had to do whatever he damn well wanted with the guy, which WE then took and ran with like it was a marathon and there was a big fuck off prize to be won. I won't give Russell the pleasure, I really won't. He didn't make Ianto the fandom favourite, WE did, so I'm damn well not going to give him credit for it by begging him to bring him back.

I'd fucking KILL to see Ianto back on my screen again but at the end of the day yes, I just am that petty.

Comments

[shighola.livejournal.com]

YES! This exactly. I cringed when I saw all the petitions and other actions cuz I thought how much that would feed RTD's ego to see the distraught fans begging for their character back. I loathe him so much.
*getting angry again*

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I loathe him so much.'
Me too, but than his utter contempt for the people that watch his shows has always rubbed me the wrong way. He's just so full of himself.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

I'm not angry that Ianto's dead, I expected Ianto to die,

I did too, but three or four episodes later than he did, and with a story-advancing reason for doing so. (Disclaimer: I don't think the death RTD gave us was one - YMMV.)

[tencrush]

Nah, my mileage is exactly the same. Frankly I just don't see how anyone can think that giving-Jack-manpain is a valid, story-advancing, plot-driven or indeed art-serving reason to kill off a character. It's cheap and tacky IMHO.

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

Nuh uh! I'm tellin' Mom on you!

RTD tolded us hisself that it was super spektakular wunnerful reasons and nessicery for making Jack do whut he duz. [Well, except for the times Jack makes the hard decisions that actually *are* integral to the plot and character development.]

So there!

Seriously, let Ianto live but be so sickened by Jack sacrificing grandson/niece/nephew/whatever that Ianto *chose* to turn away from Jack-the-monster, instead of Ianto "abandoning" Jack through death (in which he had no choice but to leave). *That*, to me, would have hurt Jack a lot more.

[radiant-pip.livejournal.com]

If they showed that Jack cared...

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

Good point.

[margotleadbett.livejournal.com]

It would have been so good, the Ianto self-retcon *sighs*

I've just been reading something that has given me to believe that TW series 4 will feature Gwen, Lois and Agent Johnson in a kind of 'Charlie's Angels (or Cats Eyes!!) fights aliens' mash-up. Imagine! They could live in an apartment together! And have slumber parties!

[tencrush]

I'd miss Ianto, but I'd totally watch that. Where are you reading this shit?

[margotleadbett.livejournal.com]

Den of Geek? Somewhere on the Guardian website?
(I think maybe some of it came out of my imagination.)

[urnssadomen.livejournal.com]

"Or if he'd decided to sacrifice Ianto. Or Ianto's nephew. Or niece. (That would have been a great place to go, dudes. Because then he could have lost Ianto, leaving him with nothing on this earth. Ianto could have retconned himself to forget about Jack ever having existed, because Jack just brings hurt and man!pain to the party and Ianto can't take it anymore. There's a million places you could have taken it and given Jack equal amounts of angst, yet still made the message clearer and not killed Ianto. I digress.)"

I really like this idea... fry the niece or nephew one. brilliant. Indeed there could be so many directions to take, and all the way to season 4. AU fic anyone?

[finn-aus.livejournal.com]

Sacrifice Ianto's nephew. Or niece.

I LOVE this idea. Not because bringing destruction upon the family of Jones' would be nice but it actually would create dilemma, and angst of real value. Ianto's sis and her hubby would fight back and it would be dark and nasty but at the same time not a completely stupid and attention grabbing death.

Also, the angsty Ianto and Jack places we could have gone from this! GDL could have freakin killed it, and still have left the program with a very nice show-reel for Hollywood agents. Sure Barrowman would have gone OTT but that's half the fun right!? And it would still have Jack in the same depressed state now, minus regret over unplanned moron leadership style.

If only, if only...

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Yep I was hoping to see the relationship develop just a little bit before Ianto got knocked off.

And I too raised the idea of Ianto being the one who walked away due to Jack killing his grandson. But I like the idea of Ianto's nephew being the one sacrificed even better.

And RTD is just loving this petition stuff. The bigger the rep, the more potential $s to be gained in Hollywood.

What I find particularly ironic is that some of the story ideas that have been talked about on LJ and fan sites are soooo much better than what we got.

As for Charlie's Angels, Cardiff Edition, I'm sure the young straight male and daddy crowd will love it. Me, uh no.

[forgiveninasong.livejournal.com]

Every single thing you write is so true, and so brilliant, I may actually make a journal and copy what you said and give it to the world for greatness. Or I may just probably copy what you said and paste it everywhere, because it speaks SO MUCH TRUTH.

It would belittle Ianto's death to even bring him back. But I totally agree with your Retcon-ideas. Someone said that Retcon would never have happened with Ianto, and they couldn't imagine a story where it would ever get to that point, because Ianto's too loyal to Jack, but what you said, I could totally see it!

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Yes, you know I credit GDL with a lot of what Ianto actually was on screen, but there was more to it than that and the thing that really contributed to the greatness of Ianto Jones was the total ABSENCE of any real overriding leadership within the Torchwood production team and the resulting freedom that GDL had to do whatever he damn well wanted with the guy, which WE then took and ran with like it was a marathon and there was a big fuck off prize to be won.'
Yeah, sometimes the lack of leadership (and a very good actor) is a good thing.

[venusinchains.livejournal.com]

Yup, RTD took the cheapest, easiest writing route to give the characters (and the fans) the most pain in the shortest amount of time. If he'd put more thought into it, there are so many ways CoE could have been better (and, imo, more salvageable for a S04), most having to do with how the Jack/Ianto relationship in general, and Ianto's death in particular, were handled. The fallout from the sacrifice you suggest would've been SO much more interesting than the vacuous end Ianto was given.

(And re-watching bits of CoE, it seems like time wouldn't have been a problem - if they'd gone with a more interesting arc for the actual Torchwood characters. There were too many places where the emphasis on The Horror - or even just the background action - seemed to drag out a bit too long. It would have been time much better spent on the characterization of Ianto and all of his relationships. Because, yeah, we know GDL can work magic with even just a few seconds of screen time - that's what our love of the character was built on. Oh well.)

Horror is a good word for it.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

For me the final irony is that we have to, for whatever reason, get rid of the gay character but we keep A CHILD BEING TORTURED TO DEATH IN LIVING COLOR. Love that family TV.

If I want to watch shows with graphic violence, there's enough around. That's not why I watched Torchwood.

Don't be surprised if Rusty hits the big time if the following movies appear:

Jason vs Captain Jack, the Final Chapter (with Abaddon making a special guest appearance,
Gwen on Elm Street, Cardiff Edition, or Freddy Kruger eats PC Andy for lunch (with a blowfish for dessert).

I for one, can't wait!

[rallyemadartep.livejournal.com]

took the words out of my mouth...in a very articulate fashion.

In a drunken state I may have joiend one of the save ianto campaigns...hee...but I don't agree with it anymore, it is just feeding the idea they did right thing.

i still disagree with his death, solely because i think it was way too early after the deaths of tosh and owen ( we had 4 episodes to give him a backstory and a promotion to kick-ass planet defender?) but he was going to die at some point...

but yeah - couldn't they have done it next season? And exactly as you and others have suggested - have ianto walka way because of jack's decisions, have them come to an agreement of some sort next season and then kill him off? It just makes so much more sense! Has anyone written this yet, actually?

What really angers me is no matter what they did with the show, or how brilliant it is...it killed my love for torchwood. And that is causing me enough angst as it is.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

But I want to make it clear, I'm not angry that Ianto's dead, I expected Ianto to die, I'm angry about the manner in which it was done.

yeah, same here (except the part of me that loves him and wants him around forever!)

but, no, bringing him back will only make his death scene even MORE worthless (also, i just don't think GDL would really want to come back)

[loqia.livejournal.com]

The more I think about Children of Earth, the angrier I get

Absolutely this. I keep getting hit with, "Wait, what?" moments every time I think I've dug out every last thing to loathe. "Unironic use of the Doctor as a metaphor for God" being my latest. D:

I don't want to give Rusty the satisfaction of even thinking for one moment that he is responsible for my emotional reaction.

The first "LKSLDNAD!!!! WHAT!!!" post I wrote about CoE mentions that one of the things bad fanfiction has taught me is that it's not exactly rocket surgery to get an emotional reaction out of people when you do horrible things to characters they already love. That doesn't mean your writing is actually, yanno, good or deep or thoughtful.

I mean, no-one fell in love with Ianto because of anything that happened in Days 1-3. People who only watched CoE aren't spitting any chips, nor are people who were casual fans, or who didn't like Ianto to start with. That doesn't negate the intellectual nastiness of fridging yet another gay character (with SPACE AIDS! I just... SPACE AIDS, man! WTF?), but it does affect the intensity of the emotional reaction.

It's like... urgh. I don't think I even know what I'm saying. Just, way to go with the cheap shock tactics there show ("LOOK AT ME! I'M SO EDGY I HAD YOUR HERO KILL A CHILD ON PRIMETIME TV! SHOWER ME WITH AWARDS, PLEASE!"). :\

[rathead.livejournal.com]

Sometimes being left alone is the best thing for an actor, I guess. I'm friending you; I hope you don't mind. I've never done it before.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

I agree entirely about The Lesson. It's easy to sacrifice other peoples' families.

Is it possible to ride a bandwagon and stamp on all its toys? Is this a distorted view through shipper-coloured glasses? We were blindsided, and the shock is part of the grief, and of course, part of the anger too. But what were we promised that we didn't get? Given your correct prediction of the teaboy's demise, what did we expect that we didn't get? (And why isn't GDL also a liar?)

I have fantasies of an S4 flashback episode with lots of Ianto. But then, I have fantasies of a big-screen movie that reunites the original cast.

[tencrush]

GDL is also a liar, but not involved in this particular kerfuffle as such. And I don't actually recall him saying we'd be happy with the relationship development in the way that RTD, Moran and Euros Lyn did, but I could be mistaken.

(I'll attempt to explain what I expected and what I got, because it's not really just to do with Ianto, but I'll do it in a different post, maybe tomorrow.)

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

saying we'd be happy with the relationship development in the way that RTD, Moran and Euros Lyn did

Did they, though? Or (like GDL) did they just answer questions as best they could without giving away the ENORMOUS SPOILER OF WOE? (There is such a funny Gareth interview where they ask what he would like to see for Ianto in the future and he's "Um..." and has to make something up.) idk, maybe they did, I'm rummaging back through interviews, but this may be something we convinced ourselves of.

[tencrush]

I kind of want to do a Kate Orman style project of "WHAT LITERALLY DID THEY SAY, LET US GATHER IT", even though I REALLY DON'T HAVE THE TIME. I know James Moran said a few things, and I believe actually John Barrowman said one or two things about how happy people would be with the development of the Jack/Ianto relationship.

I have a few things bookmarked that I'll look into, but I don't have the faintest idea of where to start. NOR DO I HAVE THE TIME. Let me make that bit clear.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

I've just done a cursory search. I've been rummaging through the RTD interviews in my Memories, plus Googling up a bunch of Euros Lyn interviews online. They're careful to talk around it, of course, assuring us that the relationship will be explored, but making no other promises. Searching James Moran's blog didn't turn up anything, either. Barrowman is possibly more forthright than any of them:

"They're going to get the relationship explored, and they're going to get the humor. They're going to get everything they want, but they're also going to get stuff they don't want. Which is kind of like a real relationship anyway."

http://www.afterelton.com/people/2009/7/john-barrowman

My impression - and this could be wrong - is that they've cautiously pointed to what is in the story, but left out one rather large element. Even with your premonition, we were still blindsided. Our expectations stemmed, very naturally, from our understanding of how TV stories work (hence my fairly hilarious "But the rhythm is all wrong!" nonsense at the time.) and what Torchwood has been like in the past.

I suspect that the shock and resentment would have been less if we'd had an official hint of a sad ending. Kind of amazing they managed to keep a secret for once, though. That is up until the BluRay DVD people blew it by sending out the discs while the bloody show was still playing.

(Write your fic anyway, I want to read it.)

fwiw, here are the Euros links I looked at:

http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2009/02/fifteen-minutes-with-torchwood-children-of-the-earth-director-euros-lyn.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpqpxGwdm9U

http://www.fearnet.com/news/b14762_exclusive_eve_myles_director_euros_lyn.html
Oh, and here's RTD:

http://blogs.thestage.co.uk/tvtoday/2009/06/torchwood-week-russell-t-davies-part-2/

Oho, Gareth could be said to be a little misleading here:

http://blogs.thestage.co.uk/tvtoday/2009/07/torchwood-week-gareth-david-lloyd/

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

kelticbanshee is working on something like that already.

here is where she's asking for contributions.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

a Kate Orman style project of "WHAT LITERALLY DID THEY SAY, LET US GATHER IT"

btw, this made my night. :D