Another Torchwood post...

[tencrush]

Thank you for all your lovely comments on my slightly anti-JB post, I'll just reiterate what's been said elsewhere, what a lovely, friendly fandom this is that we can have these sane, civilised discussions, even when we don't agree. I LOVE YOU ALL.

I'd like to respond to a few things, and they're best summed up by an anonymous comment I received from Max in the post below, and they're pertaining to Torchwood specifically, as opposed to JB, which is really where I'm going with this whole thing. The comment:

On the subject of TW.....
...as opposed to John himself - RTD has had his owm criticism about his protrayal of gay men, in relation to QAF mostly.

There are some gay men who hated the representation of gay men on QAF as pill-popping man-sluts.

Two things to say about that:

1) I think RTD lived that life in his 20's - going out every night, multiple flings etc, so he was writing what HE knew personally.

2) Why does every gay character have to be the definitive role model - an acceptable face to the straight world?

...So some gay men may live to be on the scene, and some may find a partner and never stray. Some may find a partner, and have lovers on the side - and by the way, I'm not even sure this is what JB does in his own life (I get the impression he's monogamous), but it's not my business - but you can't expect every single gay relationship on the the tv (including on TW) to reflect what you think is the ideal.

First off, as I've said, I'm really not particularly interested in what anyone does in their private life, which is why I had trouble posting what I did, because I think it's a bit intrusive, and the reason I brought up JB's private life, specifically, is because I think it has bearing on the characterisation in Torchwood. As Max rightly points out, Russell himself has also been on the receiving end of this sort of criticism, and I think the same thing Max says applies to John, I think both of them have a past in that free-for-all multiple fling gay scene, and I'm sure John is perfectly monogamous at this point in his life, I never meant to imply that I think he isn't. But I think that history has bearing on how the gay relationships in Torchwood play out. As has been pointed out on many occasions by many different people, including myself, but not only by me, the show treads a very fine line and has a tendency towards portraying the homosexual relationships as somehow less emotionally involving than the heterosexual ones. It's not a thing that's been put in intentionally by anyone involved, but it's a piling of small things on top of other small things that leave that impression.

Let's take Ianto. (Yes! Let's! I'll take him! I'll take him right here and now.) On the one hand, Ianto's a hugely refreshing character. For a start, he's canonically bisexual, which, on the GLBT menu, is surely potentially and stereotypically the most slutty thing one can possibly be, omnisexual notwithstanding. Because, let's face it, as a bisexual you're just not ruling anyone out, everyone's a potential target for your advances. (I'm joking. You all know me well enough by know. If you don't, fuck off out my journal.) And yet, Ianto's... kind of dull. Despite his young age, he's not out clubbing and fucking anything on two legs, in fact, if written canon is to be believed, it's been Lisa and now Jack and that's it. It's one of the things I love about Ianto, he's not a stereotype, which is great. But again, with Ianto, they chose to make his one OMGTRUELOVE relationship a heterosexual one (because there is NO denying that Ianto and Lisa were a big thing. We don't really need any more evidence on that front than the evidence we have, which is that, despite not being an idiot and knowing what she had been turned into, he had to save her. He LOVED her. Lots. End of.) and his kind-of-casual-avant-garde-sexytimes relationship a homosexual one. And there we have yet another one of those little things that, working together create that bigger impression of het-serious/homo-casual. And when you add that, and all the other things that have been dissected to death, to this sort of thing:
"But I don’t think he’d settle down with Ianto. He might do, but he’d let Ianto know that he [Jack] has to play around on the side. If he’d commit to Gwen, however, he knows that he’d have to commit completely."
coming from the guy who plays Jack, it makes me mad. Because there is just no canon to back up this assertion, and so I feel the assertion must be coming from John himself, and that worries me. And on that note, as I've said about Barrowman personally and the way he talks about himself, I feel the portrayal of Jack/Ianto and their "innovations" suffers from that same gay=adventurous-and-wild-and-crazy-and-just-that-little-bit-more-relaxed-and-funner-than-het stereotype that I think attitudes like Russell's and John's about gay relationships help perpetuate.

In the end, no, I've said this before and I'll say it again, every gay character DOES NOT have to be the definitive role model or an acceptable face to the straight world, every gay relationship DOES NOT have to be monogamous and serious, Torchwood DOES NOT have to be an after school special on how gay people are just people, too. BUT... I feel it could do with taking a good long look at itself and the trends in its writing that nobody, not even the token gay representatives like Russell and John, seems to be noticing.

I am hearing good things on the grapevine about Jack/Ianto in series 3, and I hope this post will be proved absolutely wrong by those things. We'll see.

Comments

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of that het-srs/homo-lols might well come from being well-intentioned to some extent, in that maybe (because I'm just speculating here) there's a fear of it looking like Jack treats women as potential conquests. But even if it's that the balance has been off for some time.

[tencrush]

Like I said in that linked post from a long time ago, I think part of is down to a PC fear of making Jack look like a womaniser, and therefore a pig. But in shifting the balance away from that, they make him look like a MANiser, which is equally problematic.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

How about Jack/Jack? Toshiko's slasher gaze notwithstanding I thought that one went quite well.

I watched some Torchwood on YouTube yesterday. Jack came back from the mother-show and seemed to say he'd come back for Ianto. Then he said the same thing to Gwen in less "I mean all of you" circumstances.

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think there's a factor you aren't taking into account. On this show there are two and only two couples. Which I think for TV is a small couple count as it were. I could be wrong, I don't actually watch much TV. RTD has clearly established that Gwen is supposed the be the 'heart' and to represent normal outside Torchwood life. That leaves them very little wiggle room. Especially since they also ended up bringing Rhys somewhat into the Torchwood fold. Rhys and Gwen are supposed to be the stereotypical couple and I do not think it's because they are straight. I think it's because of the bizarre pedestal that Gwen was put on before the show ever aired.

So that leaves Jack and Ianto. A couple I am pretty well convinced was never really planned to be anything. Then (thanks to GDL) Ianto became this fascinating character that the audience loved. We know from his book that RTD finds him very sexy and attractive, and we end up with Jack and Ianto as a couple. Well we already have the classic happy couple, another one would be redundant. Not to mention this, Gwen (other than working for TW) has had a very sunny life. Parents, a decent job, a great boyfriend etc. On the other hand it would be tough to find two men with more issues and weirdness in their lives than Ianto and Jack. And a lot of what's happened to Ianto has happened within the last 24 months. Neither of them has probably been ready for anything too serious. I tend to think they may be falling into something more serious than either of them intended though.

To your point though JB made it clear Jack would not be faithful to either Gwen or to Ianto but that Gwen would object where Ianto wouldn't. I can't decide if he's right or wrong. Straight or Gay men do tend to be a lot less about the faithful than women and to find sex with multiple partners more acceptable. Ianto could well feel this way. He might be gun shy about getting in too deep again after his last relationship. But, like you, I don't like the way JB made it sound as though Jack and Jack alone would decide how it was going to be.
Then again that was Jack explaining right quick to Ianto about the soldier in the Doctor Who finale, so Jack may not be as in charge as he thought.

Sorry, I've rambled all over the place in your LJ and got off point, which was TW was already stuck with it's happy (mostly) monogomous couple and for variety may have wanted to go elsewhere with Jack and Ianto, though we've seen no sign that JB is right to this point. He's only been with Ianto as far as we know since they got together and, as I said, Into demanded and got an explanation very quickly about a possible interlude with someone other than himself!

[tencrush]

You're right, these are the only two ACTIVE couplings on the show, but the show's given us an awful lot of canon relationships and history, like Ianto/Lisa, Jack/Estelle, Jack/dead wife, the weirdness that is Jack/Gwen, Jack/realJack, Jack/John (which John claims was serious but Jack denies vehemently), the unrequited Tosh/Owen versus the casual-feeling-sorry-for-herself Tosh/Mary fling. In fact, the only casual het I recall on the show has been Gwen/Owen, which was adulterous and therefore bad, and the sex alien in the nightclub, which, like in all good slasher movies, ended in death for the party concerned because casual het sex is evil, whereas casual gay sex is the norm. (I don't really know where to place Tosh/Tommy on this scale, I didn't really think that was particularly casual.)

You're right in what you say about the current relationships, I don't think there's really another direction they could have taken them from a writing standpoint, but there's a lot more going on than just those two pairings.

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

I was just referring to the currently active couples but either way it's probably moot since I don't think much thought was given to the Ianto/Jack relationship. In my opinion that one sort of took them by surprise, even though it was semi-planned.

[dick-grayson.livejournal.com]

I'd like to think there was another direction the writers could have gone because, despite the canonization of St. Gwen, what we actually saw on screen was not a happy, straight couple. We saw Gwen lying to Rhys from the beginning, before she ever knew what Torchwood was, cheating on him with Owen, and regularly abandoning him for the job without a second's thought. If that's the model for a happy couple, then the Torchwood universe is even more screwed up than I thought.

Perhaps the germ of an idea was there to juxtopose Gwen and her normal life with Torchwood, but Gwen was never normal (couldn't be, if she desired so much to join an outfit like Torchwood). So, I'm not convinced that they couldn't, right at this minute even, take the straight couple into screwed up territory while writing the gay couple as stable and, you know, relatively happy despite all the personal tragedy experienced by both partners.

[tencrush]

Gwen would object where Ianto wouldn't
And given the canonical evidence that Gwen has cheated on her partner, physically with Owen and some would argue mentally with Jack, whereas Ianto has not and has been shown to be frighteningly loyal and faithful, even if you get turned into a Cyberchick, there's no canon to back this up, AT ALL, which is why I question where the hell he gets this idea from.

[qthelights.livejournal.com]

I wonder about that quote.. like you, I dislike the sentiment behind it, and wonder where on earth the idea comes from. My reading of s2 was that they were starting to make the casual into an actual relationship (eg, the initial anger/sadness on jack's return, the date, jack's declaration of not wanting to change anything while staring pointedly at ianto.. all that to me points at traditional (monogamous?) relationship building (with hothouse sex thrown in to grab fangirl votes - something i just ranted about in my own journal actually, though in regards to their 'dramatic' moments of death and horror. it's cheap and tacky and bad writing/characterisation).

But I wonder about the quote itself too, because I think JB has also shown that he *does* think a lot about Jack's character, he's a geekboy, that's what we all do. Why he sometimes comes out with the opposite or tries to make out he doesn't care and does what he's told by the director and that's all, I'm not sure, because his actions clearly don't seem to indicate that.

(traipsing perilously into personal territory here but stay with me a minute, i've noticed the same when he talks about scott.. in some interviews where he's trying to be cool (or something, i couldn't possibly know his reasoning, not being him and all) it's all about the gay and the flexibility of mansex etc. but then other times, like in his book or in the more heartfelt interviews, he clearly states that he and scott are together and in love and don't stray - though in the past they may have - and that the 'scene' and that kind of gay relationship he doesn't do, that gay men can be devoted just as straight couples... which is all by way of my saying, not anything at all to do with his personal life, but that perhaps he has some kind of censoring going on when he speaks (ironic i know, if anyone was to NOT have a censor). After all, everyone is inconsistent in their thoughts, but most of us work quite hard at not showing that. we wear different masks at different times and etc etc etc. and we don't always do that consciously either.

and I therefore conclude that on the occasion of that quote, and others like it, perhaps he was talking out of his ass and in actual fact the Jack/Ianto relationship is safe and he knows they are committed to each other.

(another occasion was a clip where he said there would still be ianto-jumping with the move to bbc1, and that jack would start jumping others too... again, i hope this was just crowd pleasing at that particular event, and not an indication of where he thinks jack should go).

then again, what do we know? *g*

[tencrush]

I get the feeling that maybe a lot of all this just boils down to the sad fact that John doesn't read anything, think about the characters, or pay any attention. To anything. You can't give an actor this much freedom to interpret his character's motivations, when the actor in question chooses to not think about anything, ever.

[bandgeek01.livejournal.com]

Again I agree and disagree, but am not going to write out everything for reasons I explained in your last post.

Nicole

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

Totally off topic but I have to ask, your icon, is that Simon in a bunny suit???

[oneloveonelight.livejournal.com]

It's strange but even before Barrowman said those things about Gwen and Ianto, I had the same impression of them. I even had a conversation about that with a friend right after S2 ended. I see Jack caring for Ianto quite a bit but he doesn't want to commit and Ianto kind of accepts that. In Ianto's head, yes he WANTS Jack to commit but he's willing to let it slide (at least for now) because he knows Jack's not the commitment type. Gwen, however, seems to be the type that would make DAMN sure Jack committed if they got into a relationship (even though she had a fling which, obviously, she regrets).

Anyway, having known quite a few gay men, I have to say that YES, in general, they are a lot less monogamous. It does NOT apply to every gay couple, no, but a fairly large portion of gay relationships ARE open relationships. I'm not trying to be stereotypical, that's just the truth.

But (and this is my theory) I honestly don't think it's a gay/straight thing, I personally think it's a male/female thing. I'm not saying all men are uncontrollable hornballs that can't keep it in their pants. Men should have self control, yes, BUT they seem to wrestle with self control more because that seems to be how they are wired mentally and hormonally. They don't take sex as seriously as women tend to; men aren't always as emotionally connected to the act as women are.

And when two men get together, sometimes they agree, "Yes, we're wired the same way, let's roll with it. If you're ok with it, I'm ok with it.". And when it comes to lesbian couples, a lot of them are VERY monogamous and they tend to stay together for a LONG time. Lesbian couples tend not to stray much (and if they do stray, it's a HUGE deal). So, again, I don't think it's a gay vs straight issue. It's a issue of how the genders are wired.

Well, I hope I explained that correctly and didn't insert a foot into my mouth as I'm wont to do. I always do taste a bit of shoe leather each time I open my mouth/let my fingers fly. :)

[tencrush]

I agree, I think there ARE hardwired gender differences at play here, but if men are just generally less prone to settling down, don't show both Jack and Ianto as having a history of settling down, and being perfectly happy to do so, with women. Especially Ianto, who I feel is being given a lot of canon as to being a really loyal and faithful guy, regardless of gender, and the sort of person who wouldn't settle for a bit of wham-bam, see also the "soldier in a bar" incident in DW.

[dvanulya.livejournal.com]

Re: The Barrowman: Yah, that "analysis" of Jack and Ianto's relationship is not one I agree with. And yeah, Barrowman talks out of his ass a lot. A whole lot. I still come back to the over-grown puppy with stupid defense mechanismm theory.

I'd never really considered the portrayal of same-sex vs het relationships on TW as being particularly biased, but I do see the point. I also like to think that there is character building going on, and maybe RTD does have a master plan for Jack with whomever (and I'd put my money on Ianto) (Because I'm in denial? Because that's what my fanperson heart wants so desperately? maybe.)

Regardless of how gay relationships are being portrayed, imperfect as it may be, at least it's out there.

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

It's really interesting, that, because the one relation in S2 that is consistently decent for both partners (regardless of the shallowness or depth) is Jack and Ianto. Rhys and Gwen have a massive fight in Meat and again in Adrift, issues in Adam, and a few others here an there (Fragments, etc). Jack and Ianto...aside from the flashback scene in Fragments, it's usually pretty positive for both. And then there's Tosh/Owen nonsense, Tosh/Adam mind rape, Emily and Alice (who may be perfectly nice to one another, no matter how scary they are to Jack).

Go figure.

[(Anonymous)]

There are some gay men who hated the representation of gay men on QAF as pill-popping man-sluts.

Two things to say about that:

1) I think RTD lived that life in his 20's - going out every night, multiple flings etc, so he was writing what HE knew personally.

When I first watched the UK version of QAF, I was horrified and rather put out at, well, how tawdry it all was. And then I remembered that magical little word "satire" and sat back and howled with laughter (when I wasn't cringing at the shallowness of it all), and then happily gossiped with my very staid, prosaic upper-midwest-US-Lutheran gay friends (neither of whom could ever fit the stereotypes in QAF) about where the best tacos in town are.

Same thing with Torchwood. Jack (the character) is about as all-over-the-place with his characterization from both the writers and the actor as you can get...omnisexual time-traveling slut, who actually seems to do serial monogamy as well as somebody as freakin' damaged as he is can do. At least in TW he's somewhat independent of stuff, whereas when he shows up in Who he's a taller, better-becoated, more experienced, more interesting version of Vince from QAF.

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

Duh, that was me.

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

The thing is, though - JB has to be vague at this point. Jack freaking out in hugely dramatic ways about Ianto's death would have clarified Jack's feelings to an extent, but without that and nothing else to replace it except hasty rewrites and greenhouse sex there is not a lot canon evidence to justify him saying much more than he does, especially when he still had no idea which direction Jack/Ianto would take in S3. He can't commit the lead character any more than the show does.

I'm not saying the TW's portrayal of gay vs. straight relationships isn't a bit problematic, you're perfectly right there, but as far as intentions go, I believe RTD simply didn't really think through how killing Owen instead of Ianto would affect the Jack/Ianto arc, or thought saving the gay relationship was worth it, or that he'd simply put off any more emotional development until the next season, I've no idea. S2 Jack/Ianto seems to be as improvised as S1's was experimental.

And I wouldn't bet on it that JB isn't noticing, either; he's criticised Will & Grace and Will's lack of boyfriend as cowardly and unrealistic, so he's not unaware of that kind of thing. Maybe someone could ask him that question at a convention sometime?

[tencrush]

Maybe someone could ask him that question at a convention sometime?
*sigh* If I had no children, money and indeed even the vaguest inclination to go to any sort of convention, I would. Perhaps I shall Phrase The Perfect Question for someone to take with them next time and ask on my behalf.

[alba17.livejournal.com]

Gay casual vs. straight serious: You're right there. There's definitely a strain there. But I think that's partially because Gwen is a much bigger character than Ianto and her relationship is featured more as a consequence (Rhys = the real world). JB comments on Jack and love were thoroughly hashed out in copious comments on my journal in August: Barrowman on Jack and Love

[tencrush]

What a great discussion, I hadn't seen it. Mind if I link?

While we're on the subject of Torchwood relationships .....

[phaedra4real.livejournal.com]

There's not one that I would say was perfect. Owen and Gwen, Owen and just about anyone else, Gwen and Rhys, Tosh (poor Tosh) and her relationship attempts, then Ianto and Lisa and the tragic end to this relationship. I don't think there is a single one that I would point at and say that's nice, that's normal. So, now we have Jack and Ianto. I think they are both getting what they need out of the relationship. No harm, no foul for either one.

Jack's past relationships are varied, but we do know he had boyfriends (not sure for how long), and we do know he was married. For right now, Ianto gives him what he needs without the commitment. Both John and Gareth were interviewed together, in the same room, and asked about the relationship. Both indicated that it was developing, that there was indeed something there.

I agree with you, I think we will see more of that in Season 3. However, it may never be what some people want it to be. It could all be just for the sex - for BOTH of them. Ianto figures he'll die before he's 30. Jack grabs his moments in time. He's had many moments and a lot of time. I'll say it again, they are both getting what they need out of the relationship. And RTD et al will continue to write a story of them together if it brings in the viewers and the ratings are strong. If not, it will change.

Re: While we're on the subject of Torchwood relationships .....

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I think many people see where you're coming from. :)

But it's not just the Jack/Ianto relationship that the writers have to think about, it's the development of Ianto's character as an individual too. Even though I love the chemistry between the two of them, if their relationship doesn't go in a new direction in series 3 - whichever direction that may be - I'd rather see it come to an end so that Ianto can go in a new direction.

Interestingly the book 'Almost Perfect' seems to suggest that in Ianto's mind at least, he loves Jack more than Jack loves him, which opens a whole new can of worms because it results in the unhealthy theme of 'unrequainted love' that Tosh suffered from with Owen. Obviously the books aren't canon like the tv series is but why did the writer believe that in Ianto's mind, it's unrequainted love?