Before I continue with my retcon...
Jul. 29th, 2008 02:28 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tencrushThere's a reason I stopped at Cyberwoman with my hilarious retcon, and that's because the whole Jack and Ianto story from Fragments to Cyberwoman is one that people have very many different takes on. I myself have always believed there was sex going on between Jack and Ianto from the moment we met Ianto in Everything Changes (funnily enough, at the time, I wasn't sure there was any attraction involved on Ianto's part, my views on that only started changing after TKKS).
Some things were brought up in the comments of my retcon that got me thinking yet again about that "I clean up your shit" scene in Cyberwoman. I said about it that it really works if you assume they're fucking. Which is true, there's an incredible amount of resentment coming from Ianto towards Jack in that scene, and if you read it as a scene between two sexual partners, it's a very ouchy scene. My own interpretation is that they were most definitely involved, and I have a few reasons for thinking that, and they're all to do with Ianto and why he would have sex with Jack, despite the fact that he's got a Cybergirlfriend in the basement.
I said this about Ianto's last scene in Fragments (here):
I think there's a whole other level to this scene which isn't even really about sex at all, and it's about enjoyment and fun. I don't know if you've noticed, but Ianto's having fun with Jack, catching Myfanwy, it's all adrenaline and running around and laughing, and this is a guy who, one would assume, has a cybergirlfriend IN HIS SHED as we speak. One that he's been looking after and is obviously desperate to fix since Canary Wharf happened, and since Canary Wharf happened, I can't imagine this guy's been having much fun. At all. You see, I think it's not just the fact that there's attraction and arousal going on that worries Ianto, it's the fact that he is actually having fun. His whole objective is to save Lisa, the girl he can't live without, and in saving her, or keeping her safe in any case, he may well end up proving that he CAN live without her. Which defeats the object of the exercise. Not only, I think, do his tears signify his own disgust at the levels to which he'll stoop and the fact that he might even enjoy stooping to them, but also every single one of his doubts and fears about whether saving her was actually the right thing to do. Did he do it for her or did he do it for himself? Should he have just let her go? I think this moment of doubt and tears also shows us the point at which saving Lisa to Ianto, who presumably has since Canary Wharf, been running on adrenaline and single bloody-mindedness, starts to become less of a love thing, and more of an obsession. He HAS TO save her now, in order to prove to himself that he did the right thing saving her in the first place and that he's doing the right thing in stooping to the levels he'll stoop to to save her now. He's effectively trapped himself.
I still stand by this take on Ianto's state of mind after Fragments happened, he is trapped, and feels trapped, on several levels, and I can see quite clearly how a sexual relationship would have developed between him and Jack, pre-Cyberwoman.
We see in Fragments that there is a definite sexual element to Jack and Ianto's relationship from the very beginning. And while it's clear that Jack doesn't offer Ianto the job because of that sexual element, it's obviously an element that Ianto is well aware of. I can see Ianto following through on the flirtation for a number of reasons:
1) Guilt - Ianto clearly likes Jack and feels bad about deceiving him. Now it doesn't necessarily follow that Ianto would fall into bed with Jack, but there could definitely be an element to it of Ianto not wanting to lead Jack on. And the idea that Ianto has in the back of his mind that he's doing all of this for Lisa would make it more plausible that he would be willing to take it further than flirtation. And, of course, there's the element of:
2) Distraction - Again, this is another argument that Ianto can file away in his head under the heading of Doing It For Lisa. A simple, logical need to distract Jack from the Cybergirl in the basement by whatever means necessary.
Now both of these reasons explain why Ianto would be willing to take things further, but they don't really explain why Ianto would actually want to. Which brings us to:
3) Need - One would assume that Ianto would only have sex with Jack if he genuinely wanted to (it is at least implied in the way their relationship develops that Ianto wasn't purely whoring himself out for Lisa's sake), but why would he want to? Well, the way I see it, pre-Cyberwoman Ianto is an incredibly fucked up young man, living with an incredible burden and functioning under an immense amount of pressure. That he would have a simple human need to unwind isn't exactly beyond the realms of our imagination, nor is it implausible that he would have a need for some basic human contact and comfort, given his girlfriend's suddenly metallic state. And Jack is, of course, the perfect candidate. For a start, he's there, it's not like Ianto would have a lot of spare time left between Lisa and his job to go seeking out someone to shag. And secondly, Jack is one of the most emotionally closed off people in the entire universe, capable of providing Ianto with a perfect and mutual "don't ask, don't tell" relationship in which neither party feels the need or the desire to emotionally connect and can simply get on with the business of recreational fucking. He can get his comfort without having to explain why he needs it. Perfect. Having said that, I think there's another reason, perhaps a subconscious one, which is the complete polar opposite of this reason. I personally think they both play a part.
4) Salvation - Here's how I think this one plays out. At Canary Wharf, Ianto rescues his girlfriend. He makes a spur-of-the-moment decision based on his love for her and his desire not to lose her, that permanently affects her life, her quality of life and her future. In making that decision, her fate become his responsibility, and it's highly likely that Ianto's rational mind questioned that decision constantly from that moment on, and that his guilt over it was eating away at him. He loves her, so he can't kill her (or, more importantly, he can't bring himself to be the one that makes the decision to kill her), but he can't fix her either. His love for her has trapped him. He knows Lisa's position is an unsustainable one, but in order to alter it he needs help. Along comes Jack. Now a lot of people think that Ianto has a slightly fawning attitude towards Jack, generally, and I think there is an element of hero-worship in Ianto's attitude towards Jack from the very start. I think Ianto sees Jack as his salvation, as his way out of the situation he's trapped himself in. Ianto needs help and he knows it. Now for whatever reason, Ianto, who may have been tempted to simply tell Jack about Lisa when he started at TW3, doesn't tell Jack about his predicament. And, as the situation drags on and the subterfuge becomes more and more intricate, the chances of Ianto being able to tell Jack about it, ask for help and actually receive it diminish. But the situation doesn't change, Lisa stays in an indefinite limbo state (until Ianto finds Tanizaki later) that Ianto is responsible for creating. So Ianto sleeps with Jack. For the simple reason that, underneath it all, Ianto desperately wants to be found out. He can't tell Jack anymore, but he needs Jack to know, because he needs a way out of the situation either way, fixing or death, it's a way out of the stalemate (and Ianto's probably putting his money on the fixing because he thinks Jack's a good guy, and had Jack found out before the Tanizaki mess, Jack possibly would have attempted the fixing). But lo and behold, Jack never finds out. Which brings me back to the "no questions asked" speech and how I interpret it. Ianto, in his desperation to be discovered and get help, sleeps with Jack, but still Jack never asks him about his life. Jack knows how desperate Ianto was for the job, but still Jack never asks. Ianto wants Jack to ask, to suspect, to be interested, to notice there's something off, to help, but it doesn't happen. And so, on some level, the shit cleaning speech is a low blow about Suzie and Ianto and Jack's general lack of empathy and interest in his employees, but it's also a case of genuine resentment and anger on Ianto's part towards Jack. Ianto genuinely, subconsiously or not, hoped that by sleeping with Jack, Jack would show enough of an interest in him to notice. This interpretation also sits slightly better with me when it comes to Jack actually taking Ianto back on, and not retconning him into primary school. The way I see it, Jack takes Ianto back on because he feels guilty and because he accepts that he is partly to blame for allowing the situation to escalate the way it did. Jack blames himself for not noticing.
That's my personal take on their relationship up to Cyberwoman. A bit rambly, but there you are. I shall be returing to the regularly scheduled Series One Retcon tomorrow.
Some things were brought up in the comments of my retcon that got me thinking yet again about that "I clean up your shit" scene in Cyberwoman. I said about it that it really works if you assume they're fucking. Which is true, there's an incredible amount of resentment coming from Ianto towards Jack in that scene, and if you read it as a scene between two sexual partners, it's a very ouchy scene. My own interpretation is that they were most definitely involved, and I have a few reasons for thinking that, and they're all to do with Ianto and why he would have sex with Jack, despite the fact that he's got a Cybergirlfriend in the basement.
I said this about Ianto's last scene in Fragments (here):
I think there's a whole other level to this scene which isn't even really about sex at all, and it's about enjoyment and fun. I don't know if you've noticed, but Ianto's having fun with Jack, catching Myfanwy, it's all adrenaline and running around and laughing, and this is a guy who, one would assume, has a cybergirlfriend IN HIS SHED as we speak. One that he's been looking after and is obviously desperate to fix since Canary Wharf happened, and since Canary Wharf happened, I can't imagine this guy's been having much fun. At all. You see, I think it's not just the fact that there's attraction and arousal going on that worries Ianto, it's the fact that he is actually having fun. His whole objective is to save Lisa, the girl he can't live without, and in saving her, or keeping her safe in any case, he may well end up proving that he CAN live without her. Which defeats the object of the exercise. Not only, I think, do his tears signify his own disgust at the levels to which he'll stoop and the fact that he might even enjoy stooping to them, but also every single one of his doubts and fears about whether saving her was actually the right thing to do. Did he do it for her or did he do it for himself? Should he have just let her go? I think this moment of doubt and tears also shows us the point at which saving Lisa to Ianto, who presumably has since Canary Wharf, been running on adrenaline and single bloody-mindedness, starts to become less of a love thing, and more of an obsession. He HAS TO save her now, in order to prove to himself that he did the right thing saving her in the first place and that he's doing the right thing in stooping to the levels he'll stoop to to save her now. He's effectively trapped himself.
I still stand by this take on Ianto's state of mind after Fragments happened, he is trapped, and feels trapped, on several levels, and I can see quite clearly how a sexual relationship would have developed between him and Jack, pre-Cyberwoman.
We see in Fragments that there is a definite sexual element to Jack and Ianto's relationship from the very beginning. And while it's clear that Jack doesn't offer Ianto the job because of that sexual element, it's obviously an element that Ianto is well aware of. I can see Ianto following through on the flirtation for a number of reasons:
1) Guilt - Ianto clearly likes Jack and feels bad about deceiving him. Now it doesn't necessarily follow that Ianto would fall into bed with Jack, but there could definitely be an element to it of Ianto not wanting to lead Jack on. And the idea that Ianto has in the back of his mind that he's doing all of this for Lisa would make it more plausible that he would be willing to take it further than flirtation. And, of course, there's the element of:
2) Distraction - Again, this is another argument that Ianto can file away in his head under the heading of Doing It For Lisa. A simple, logical need to distract Jack from the Cybergirl in the basement by whatever means necessary.
Now both of these reasons explain why Ianto would be willing to take things further, but they don't really explain why Ianto would actually want to. Which brings us to:
3) Need - One would assume that Ianto would only have sex with Jack if he genuinely wanted to (it is at least implied in the way their relationship develops that Ianto wasn't purely whoring himself out for Lisa's sake), but why would he want to? Well, the way I see it, pre-Cyberwoman Ianto is an incredibly fucked up young man, living with an incredible burden and functioning under an immense amount of pressure. That he would have a simple human need to unwind isn't exactly beyond the realms of our imagination, nor is it implausible that he would have a need for some basic human contact and comfort, given his girlfriend's suddenly metallic state. And Jack is, of course, the perfect candidate. For a start, he's there, it's not like Ianto would have a lot of spare time left between Lisa and his job to go seeking out someone to shag. And secondly, Jack is one of the most emotionally closed off people in the entire universe, capable of providing Ianto with a perfect and mutual "don't ask, don't tell" relationship in which neither party feels the need or the desire to emotionally connect and can simply get on with the business of recreational fucking. He can get his comfort without having to explain why he needs it. Perfect. Having said that, I think there's another reason, perhaps a subconscious one, which is the complete polar opposite of this reason. I personally think they both play a part.
4) Salvation - Here's how I think this one plays out. At Canary Wharf, Ianto rescues his girlfriend. He makes a spur-of-the-moment decision based on his love for her and his desire not to lose her, that permanently affects her life, her quality of life and her future. In making that decision, her fate become his responsibility, and it's highly likely that Ianto's rational mind questioned that decision constantly from that moment on, and that his guilt over it was eating away at him. He loves her, so he can't kill her (or, more importantly, he can't bring himself to be the one that makes the decision to kill her), but he can't fix her either. His love for her has trapped him. He knows Lisa's position is an unsustainable one, but in order to alter it he needs help. Along comes Jack. Now a lot of people think that Ianto has a slightly fawning attitude towards Jack, generally, and I think there is an element of hero-worship in Ianto's attitude towards Jack from the very start. I think Ianto sees Jack as his salvation, as his way out of the situation he's trapped himself in. Ianto needs help and he knows it. Now for whatever reason, Ianto, who may have been tempted to simply tell Jack about Lisa when he started at TW3, doesn't tell Jack about his predicament. And, as the situation drags on and the subterfuge becomes more and more intricate, the chances of Ianto being able to tell Jack about it, ask for help and actually receive it diminish. But the situation doesn't change, Lisa stays in an indefinite limbo state (until Ianto finds Tanizaki later) that Ianto is responsible for creating. So Ianto sleeps with Jack. For the simple reason that, underneath it all, Ianto desperately wants to be found out. He can't tell Jack anymore, but he needs Jack to know, because he needs a way out of the situation either way, fixing or death, it's a way out of the stalemate (and Ianto's probably putting his money on the fixing because he thinks Jack's a good guy, and had Jack found out before the Tanizaki mess, Jack possibly would have attempted the fixing). But lo and behold, Jack never finds out. Which brings me back to the "no questions asked" speech and how I interpret it. Ianto, in his desperation to be discovered and get help, sleeps with Jack, but still Jack never asks him about his life. Jack knows how desperate Ianto was for the job, but still Jack never asks. Ianto wants Jack to ask, to suspect, to be interested, to notice there's something off, to help, but it doesn't happen. And so, on some level, the shit cleaning speech is a low blow about Suzie and Ianto and Jack's general lack of empathy and interest in his employees, but it's also a case of genuine resentment and anger on Ianto's part towards Jack. Ianto genuinely, subconsiously or not, hoped that by sleeping with Jack, Jack would show enough of an interest in him to notice. This interpretation also sits slightly better with me when it comes to Jack actually taking Ianto back on, and not retconning him into primary school. The way I see it, Jack takes Ianto back on because he feels guilty and because he accepts that he is partly to blame for allowing the situation to escalate the way it did. Jack blames himself for not noticing.
That's my personal take on their relationship up to Cyberwoman. A bit rambly, but there you are. I shall be returing to the regularly scheduled Series One Retcon tomorrow.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 04:34 pm (UTC)I think it was at the end of Cyberwoman, partly because that nod scene just comes across as an "are we cool now?" "yup" exchange to me, and partly because I don't think Jack would allow Ianto back in the Hub or out in the field if there were any lingering trust issues.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 04:57 pm (UTC)In "Small Worlds" there was Jack's hand on Ianto's shoulder, then moving down his back. It made Ianto jump. He really didn't know what to do.
As far as the mutual nod, yes, I agree to a point. But I'd read it as "we're good enough to go on with" and not "we're good".
But it's true that Jack had to see (as we clearly did) that all the fight had gone out of Ianto. Defeated and humiliated, the fire gone out of him; underscored by his hunchy posture, going around picking up other people's trash.
Looking at this I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't see that the problem is Jack's trust so much as how Ianto moves from humiliation to daring.
How Ianto Got His Groove Back.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 05:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 05:18 pm (UTC)I really wonder if TPTB ever intended to make the show this complex and interesting or if it just happened by accident of their complete inability to follow up a story line. o_O
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 05:30 pm (UTC)That it spooked Ianto so tells me that there's been no reassurance, no comfort; at least not physically expressed. Or that he's not ready to stop punishing himself, and maybe Jack.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 06:05 pm (UTC)I'm going to go with complete accident.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 06:42 pm (UTC)I don't know what to make of that. Have a go.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 06:52 pm (UTC)I've always thought that meant they had some kind of understanding that Jack won't touch Ianto at work because Ianto doesn't want it to appear like favoritism- if only to himself (both the shoulder touch and the kiss in TTLM took place after work). Considering how Ianto tried to get his job in the first place, could you blame him?.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 07:09 pm (UTC)There’s nothing to indicate that Jack wasn’t touchy-feely with Ianto prior to Cyberwoman (or, any less then he was with the other team members.)
I think, after Ianto's obvious discomfort/shock/whatever at having Jack touch him in a non-sexual manner Jack decided that Ianto doesn’t like casual physical contact, and really refrains from it from there on out.
Until about TSE this holds true, where right before Martha’s phone call, Jack had thrown his arm around Ianto when Ianto’s reading from the computer screen.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 07:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 07:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-30 03:31 pm (UTC)You learn not to violate that space unless you're given an invitation, or have earned special privileges (as Jack has).
no subject
Date: 2008-07-30 05:12 pm (UTC)I just think it's taken Jack a longer time to realize that he has earned that privilege with Ianto. (And the deleted scene in Meat screws with my theory, so while I squeed I'm also glad it was cut.)
no subject
Date: 2008-07-29 06:37 pm (UTC)In Cyberwoman, Jack makes a decision that causes an extreme amount of personal misery to protect Cardiff from an alien threat that could potentially cause the deaths of millions. It's not personal, even though Ianto's suffering is.
In Small Worlds, Jack makes a decision that causes an extreme amount of personal misery to protect Cardiff from a threat that could potentially cause the deaths of millions. It's not personal, even though Jasmine's mother would disagree.
Ianto would have to have seen that, and if you take the BBCA Captain's Blog as canon (which is a whole 'nuther debate), he's the only one who didn't fly into rage at Jack over it. Possibly because he's seen Jack do that before, for the same reason.