I was just fucking witcha...

[tencrush]

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

Comments

[xwingace]

No, that actually really makes a lot of sense.

It's actually what upsets me a lot about the perceptions I come across, in fic but also in remarks in (mostly ffrants) discussions, that people really do seem to see Jack as some sort of slut.

I still don't see it. I see him as flirty, sure. I even see him as into/up for something, anything -- but pretty much only *if the other party wants it*, and even then he's a lot more aware of the time and the place for it than he might otherwise let on.

XWA

[glorfindelghost.livejournal.com]

I think they have always trod that fine line with Jack and how he relates to Ianto: Look at the kiss in 'Cyberwoman', for example, which bothers me to this day. Because if thats NOT any form of magical glowy Jack CPR then his is essentially just macking on an unconscious junior employee. That sticks out to me as an anomaly though - i've never thought of Jack as someone to abuse his position.

I think i'm clearly less fond of Jack than you are because i'd never consider him very heroic - He's fairly self-centred and hedonistic. However, I don't believe that Jack's ego would allow him to use his position as boss to get what he wants - Jack considers himself attractive and charming enough to get what he wants, pulling the boss card would be cheating.

I do think that the writing team may have been aware that they needed to level the playing field so to speak with Jack and Ianto and i'm firmly of the belief that that was the intention behind 'Fragments' - because instead of being innocent, vulnerable secretary Ianto became a fairly devious young man who was able to con Jack Harkness. He became pretty formidable in his own right - nobody's toy, nobody's fool.

[louiex.livejournal.com]

You've made some terrific points here and its really been boiled down to the most irksome factor which is the matter of the individual perception. Jack's almost like a Rorschach test in that everyone can see him in a different way merely because the writers -being many and not of one solid mindset- all have their own pov of him. James Moran saw him as the determined, almost over the edge, serious leader while Catherine Tregenna has him as this lost, love-seeking wounded hero. There are so many POVs just coming out of the gate of Jack that for the viewer to settle on one alone is hard enough.

Secondly, starting the Jack and Ianto relationship buried in ambiguity as they did in S1 made it seem like a dirty little secret rather than chock-full of the h/c that it might have been in reality. I want- as a viewer and fan and writer myself- to believe that Jack wouldn't abuse the canon history of super PTSD that Ianto ought to/has shown glimmers of having or held their relationship over Ianto's head in any way that could be 'wrong' or questionable. Because that is what anti-gay protesters say ARE gay relationships and that is the last thing Jack/Ianto should be upholding; the flawed perception of what could be a supportive and healthy -despite their die at any moment job- relationship. It has always bothered me why they're not more up front with it considering it involves the MAIN character of the show, why we've never seen his inside POV of things with Ianto but we know almost more about his back and forth with Gwen instead. Which implies that the writers are at odds with Gwen and Ianto while the characters, from what we've seen, have little issue with each other and Jack smack in the middle of them.

Ambiguity can only be a tool for so long before it just ends up hurting a character by leaving gaping holes like this that can only become interpreted as flaws.

Another random note, but Ianto himself gets a lot of sexual imagery aimed at him by more than just Jack. Captain John, Adam, Owen's teasing are all from a negative place which would make sense to balance it out with positive reinforcements from Jack that not all of teh ghey on TW is BAD GAY. But we, as an audience, lack the scenes that could easily mend that. Little things, touches of shoulders or hands, even Jack spending a half-second to show concern about Ianto's well-being at one point or another would fix this whole debate in seconds! Its one that's fixed in the books easily enough (see the last chapter of 'Hidden' which had about 0 J/I until that point but because of Jack's chosen actions it wasn't necessarily something he'd do with Owen, the other male character around if Owen and Ianto's situations were switched) and it seems a shame that it can't be fixed in the show with just MINOR tweekings. What's the fear of making it seem like Jack cares about someone beyond his general team love who's NOT Gwen?

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to.

You aren't wrong to be annoyed by that. The thing is, why do people think that? There has been nothing at all in canon to imply that Jack is that kind of guy, or even that he ever was that kind of guy.

Seriously, in The Empty Child or any of his other Who eps he was certainly seen as flirty and fun and promiscuous but not as a user. He could have had Rose is a heartbeat (I'm convinced) but other than flirting with her he never really pushed it at all. He could have had Gwen, never went there. He was in the position of life or death pretty much over Tosh, never went there. All the indications are that while he flirted with Ianto the aggressor in the situation was Ianto, not Jack. If Small Worlds was their first sexual encounter we know for a fact that it was Ianto who initiated. If, as Gareth said he thinks, they were involved before Cyberwoman then from what we've seen it was also Ianto who inititated then as well. At the least he let Jack know he was interested.

I can't see anything in the writing to lead people to the idea that Jack is someone who would abuse his position. In fact, the only one Jack has been seen to have an actual sexual relationship with over both shows is Ianto. We also know about a five year relationship that he had with John. So yeah, he's admitted to plenty of casual encounters but so what? We've seen Owen, Tosh and Gwen all with multiple sexual partners. Only Ianto and Jack have had only each other.

The thing that gets me even more are the fanfic writers who write about Jack pretty much forcing Ianto into sex in the immediate aftermath of Cyberwoman because "you need this". Ok, that's not even harrassment. That's rape. And if someone truly believes that Jack Harkness is a rapist then I don't know what show they are watching because it's not the same one I'm watching.

[tencrush]

Another random note, but Ianto himself gets a lot of sexual imagery aimed at him by more than just Jack. Captain John, Adam, Owen's teasing are all from a negative place which would make sense to balance it out with positive reinforcements from Jack that not all of teh ghey on TW is BAD GAY. But we, as an audience, lack the scenes that could easily mend that. Little things, touches of shoulders or hands, even Jack spending a half-second to show concern about Ianto's well-being at one point or another would fix this whole debate in seconds!
Yes! Yes yes yes. it's not that hard to do, it would only take a few scenes, some precious seconds of screentime, and the whole thing would be so much less ambiguous. You make a valid point about the shit Ianto gets thrown at him from other sides. Especially the stuff from Owen, it seems to come from such a BAD GAY place, that I just yearn for one or two touches to fix that skewed perspective. It boils down to Russell talking the talk but not walking the walk as far as I'm concerned, and just not putting quite enough effort in to show this relationship as NOT DIRTYBADWRONG. The way it's been presented, it NEEDS that acknowledgement that it ISN'T dirtybadwrong in order to stand up as a proper relationship, and in order for Jack to stand up to scrutiny as a proper progressive role model.

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

even then he's a lot more aware of the time and the place for it than he might otherwise let on.

Exactly! In Sleeper remember he made the hockey comment to the PC and it was strictly a toss off and get the guy out of the room? Tosh asked him "Making friends?" and he just replied "no".

[rm.livejournal.com]

That makes a lot of sense. Jack has to be a decent guy or the show doesn't work because the show is about his (and everyone who work's for him) struggle for redemption.

I'm not sure what the Jack/Ianto deal is, but:
- it can be casual and have integrity
- it can be really serious and not be the most important thing in their lives
- it could be something entirely in-between
- the jealousy/territory issues don't have to be about sex and love: there's a lot of mentorship stuff going on too (I actually thing Jack and Ianto are a lot alike and part of the dynamic is Ianto wanting/needing guidance about how to manage his own personal power and Jack being both someone who loves to take care of people and a bit of a narcissist).
- taking anything any of the characters say at face value is not useful.
- the interpretation of Ianto through a feminizing lens annoys the shit out of me -- I actually think Jack acts in a more feminine manner most of the time (he flirts like a woman; it's fascinating to me).
- also just because Jack is shitty at communicating doesn't mean non-monogamy is bad -- I loathe interpretations of the show that are about how the solution to the Jack/Ianto situation is monogamy. For all we know they are being monogamous, but regardless, that doesn't seem to be the problem -- it's the information balance that's all screwed up.

[louiex.livejournal.com]

It boils down to Russell talking the talk but not walking the walk as far as I'm concerned, and just not putting quite enough effort in to show this relationship as NOT DIRTYBADWRONG.

Didn't RTD pioneer Queer As Folk? Why is he afraid to push the big shiny gay button when he's been there done that and has shown more positive imagery on Doctor Who (though it was cut sadly) which was a show intended for Children. Ianto's moved progressively out into the open with this relationship from the teasing in Sleeper to dancing in Something Borrowed and I wouldn't think a potentially bad relationship -from his pov- would be one that Ianto would flaunt. He's the king of keeping his mouth shut about things, he wouldn't brag a bad thing but we as the viewer only have his side of the situation as reassurances as that.

It just boggles the mind that they wouldn't make the little adjustments. What, they can't risk not showing that fourth sweeping nightscape of Cardiff? Exit Wounds had what felt almost like a painful amount of city-scenes and while yes, Cardiff was wounded in the attack, they could have done something beautiful mirroring Gwen clinging to Rhys for comfort with Jack and Ianto in the Hub. While I'm not looking for in bed scenes or holding hands or skipping down the lane, some reassurances that Jack NEEDS as much as Ianto seems to NEED Jack would be nice :D

[adafrog.livejournal.com]

ITA Jack is not a slut. He's open to new experiences, but he has shown over and over again that he is loyal to a fault, and values the connections he has.

[tencrush]

You aren't wrong to be annoyed by that. The thing is, why do people think that? There has been nothing at all in canon to imply that Jack is that kind of guy, or even that he ever was that kind of guy.
I guess what that boils down to, for me, is that the problem is that there is NOT ENOUGH in canon to suggest that Jack is NOT that kind of guy, and the easiest way to fix that in canon would be to show that he's not that kind of guy within the confines of his relationship with Ianto, and they're not doing enough to show us that, apart from one line in TtLM. And that's where my anger comes from, from the fact that you could have gone to the loo during TtLM, missed that one line and come out of this show with that perception of Jack, as a guy who uses omnisexuality as an excuse to stick it in as many people as possible, intact. It's not good enough.

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

Now that makes sense. I understand what you are saying.

Given that, I don't have an issue with it. I think it's a lot to ask that every single person out there 'get' Jack Harkness as a character. I don't think some people have the life experience to understand or deal with something like him. No matter how well he is presented, there will always be people who believe that about him. Even if they oversimplify him and take away a lot of the nuance and mystery that make him so appealing, I don't think very many of those people who still don't get that fact will.

I like louiex's Rorschach analogy, but I don't think it's a product of uneven writing. I think it's a product of the character that existed even in Moffat's original story. Jack is a an ink blot test on how people see society. Some people need labels and ritual and tradition to get by. They need to see things in black and white. No matter how fascinated they are with people like Jack, they can never 'get' him.

I think the same thing applies to Ianto, in a way. I think that a lot of what I'm hearing about him has more to do with the fact that the character is male instead of female. If Ianto were a woman I think people would be able to see how strong and able - and devious - he is. But because he's a man, who dares to sleep with and fall in love with a man, and dares to cry on screen, I think there are just people who will only see him as a woobie and a victim because they don't have the experience or the depth to understand that a man can have both qualities. It's a weird sort of reverse sexism.

[rm.livejournal.com]

It is worth noting that QaF did a lot of weird and not always defensible things with people and power dynamics and sex. It was one of the things I loved about the show. I just think it translates in a murkier way here because it's not The Gay Show with room for counterbalancing some of the "WTF?"

Also someone mentioned Jack as the Rosarch test for the show. People have some pretty radically different interpretations of Jack. I think that Jack/Ianto relationship serves the same purpose. It can mirror the viewer's pain or joy depending on their worldview -- only problem is that it comes off as incoherent and not satisfying at times for those of us trying to figure out what's actually happening in the show!

Also I assume we're finally going to get some need out of Jack in a presumable season 3 -- there has to be a delayed reaction to that buried alive situation.

[tencrush]

They could have done something beautiful mirroring Gwen clinging to Rhys for comfort with Jack and Ianto in the Hub
That's my biggest gripe about last series. And like you say, it didn't have to be anything even vaguely similar, they could have downed a pint of scotch between them in the Hub for all I care, just show me that they have something, anything going on between them on anything even remotely approaching the same level as Gwen/Rhys. Five seconds, that's all it would have taken.

[tencrush]

Also I assume we're finally going to get some need out of Jack in a presumable season 3 -- there has to be a delayed reaction to that buried alive situation.
I so wish I had your faith and wasn't entirely convinced they're going to pretend that that NEVER HAPPENED.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I mean, granted, the writers have a bad track record with this sort of thing, but I don't get people who want to write the Hurt without the Comfort, so I have to assume there's going to be some Jack processing time here.

[shadowpiranha.livejournal.com]

Sorry to barge in, I saw your post on torch_wood, I hope you don't mind me saying my two cents on this.

I don't think you're wrong at all. Regarding Jack and Ianto, I see them as fuck buddies more than anything else. There's no real romance there, but it's not a power trip type of relationship either, I don't think. I think they enjoy each other's company, in a sexual way, yes, but the relationship between the two is of equals, not boss/employee, despite Ianto insisting in calling him sir (I personally think he does it for fun,in a kinky sort of way, as a private joke) - and that might throw people off. But to me, above all, I think of Jack/Ianto as a sexual relationship between equals, not a domination/subordination type of thing at all! I think they like each other, they're utterly attracted to each other, but there's nothing one has that the other lacks. Jack is definitely not abusing his position as a boss for screwing around with Ianto after-hours, not the way I see it, anyway.

[louiex.livejournal.com]

ust show me that they have something, anything going on between them on anything even remotely approaching the same level as Gwen/Rhys. Five seconds, that's all it would have taken.

Its true! Such a small amount of time could fix it all so it bothers me that the writers/creators drag their feet about it. Especially considering these are the two sets we have left, why NOT show them on equal footing in the face of such tragedy?

[theninth.livejournal.com]

One of the things that bothers me about the whole situation (and the "but Jack LOOOoOOOOooOOOVES GWEN" not-so-sub-text) is the fact that it enforces the concepts that "Bisexuality is a phase and it just takes the right opposite-sex person to 'cure' it", and the "gay sex is just sex and it has to be heterosexual to be Love".

[tencrush]

I don't have as much of a problem with that interpretation, though I still think there has been ample evidence onscreen that Ianto has FEELINGS for Jack, from his Brokeback Coat moment, to his "meaning" line in Adam, and I think that if Jack is approaching it from a fuckbuddy angle that is STILL just a little bit icky from Jack's POV, because I think Jack is WELL AWARE of the fact that Ianto has feelings for him. If you haven't seen any evidence of any emotional investment from Ianto, then that's fair enough, but I have.

[shadowpiranha.livejournal.com]

I have seen that, yeah, but I still don't think Jack's abusing anything, because I don't believe Jack is absolutely feelings-free when it comes to Ianto either. I just don't see "love" in the romantic sense of the word, you know? But I definitely see feelings. From both of them.

I just think they like to have fun with each other and they feel good around each other more than anything else.

[louiex.livejournal.com]

I too wish I had your confidence that they're going to show us Jack being 'fixed' back to his usual self after that severe hurt :D And while the level of writing has soared from season one to season two, Ianto's h/c was handwaved within the span of the last few minutes of Cyberwoman (even if the Captain's Blog was far more gracious about it) as well as the cannibal traumas for Tosh AND Ianto since the viewer was more focused on Gwen's affair.

And yes, you're right about Jack/Ianto being just as left up to interpretation as Jack himself as well as it being incoherent~ It doesn't do them any good to leave it so vague though so I don't quite understand why there is such hesitation to give a solid answer.

[tencrush]

That's the men are for fucking and women are for commitment attitude that this reading of Jack unwittingly supports, yeah. It's a foolish oversight from a team that's supposed to be putting such a progressive view on show for the audience.

[tencrush]

I'm not that hugely fond of Jack, and I worry sometimes that a lot of the spin I put on his relationship with Ianto boils down to me, in my head, trying to make him more likeable than the guy we're being shown.

[shadowpiranha.livejournal.com]

That's bullshit, all of it. It has to be someone special, regardless of gender, to be Love. When I fell in love, I fell in love with the brain, I could have cared less if it had been a girl's brain.

It baffles me that some people out there still think same-sex relationships are ALL about sex, and none of those people have the ability to fall in love with one another.

[glorfindelghost.livejournal.com]

See, I think its how his relationship with Ianto is presented has contributed to putting me off him - because somewhere along the way I accepted that TW Jack is a lot more problematic and murky than DW Jack and i'm ok with that. I like that he's a lot less 'shiny'.

But because i'm attached to Ianto, he's probably my avatar figure in the show, then i'm pretty much getting their relationship through Ianto's POV but my own filter...and not liking what I see of Jack. If that makes any sense. Its hugely frustrating because I don't quite get what Ianto sees in him at this point...