I was just fucking witcha...

[tencrush]

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

Comments

[tencrush]

I believe that's correct, yes. And, like I pointed out in my picspam a few weeks back, in S1 during the one blatant moment in which Ianto propositions Jack with the stopwatch, he also calls him "Sir", but when Jack accepts and makes the date for ten minutes and walks off, Ianto calls him "Jack" for the first and only time in S1. I really think the Sir thing is a work/private life related in-joke that harks back to their days of being fuckbuddies, and that's why I, personally, thought that Jack asked Ianto to stop it in KKBB, because Jack wanted to go past the fuckbuddies thing.

[nikki4noo.livejournal.com]

Right my two cents, for what it is worth ;) What we have found out in canon about Jack?

1. The doctor in explaining to Rose that Jack is a little more flexible towards sex than those in the 21st Century "So many species, so little time." I saw that comment more as the Doctor warning Rose away from Jack, he had seen she was quite interested in Jack.
2. Omnisexual does not equate to slut, not once has there been any canon evidence for this in the show, just that he is open to being attracted to different species/people. Those that think it equals slut often think that homosexual=slut as well.
3. He flirts yes, but not once has he ever followed through with someone unwillingly. The flirtation is actually often used to distract someone, get control of a situation/conversation back the way he wants. Capt John did a similar thing when he was there so I see it as a Time Agent trick/training.
4. His flirtation this season has been fairly minimum, ep2 Tosh comments on his flirting and he is pretty adamant that wasn't what he was doing.
5. Longer term relationships - His family back home, fairly traditional family unit it seems - Father, Mother, sibling. He was in a relationship with John for 5 years. He at one stage was married, after knowing that he can't die, he still committed to a woman. Estelle, for a period he was very committed to her but didn't want to hurt her in the long run so broke it off, but still kept an eye on her. So canon back story on Jack shows that he can and has committed in the past.
6. Jack really is looking to be wanted/needed. He hides behind this brash persona but the reality is that he knows he will always be abandoned and how he was treated by the Doctor both times, makes me grr. That is partly why his reaction in Cyberwoman was so over the top. He trusted this guy, let him in on a lot of secrets and that trust was broken. Owen, Tosh and Gwen have all at some stage broken his trust too and he hasn't reacted anywhere near with the anger that he showed towards Ianto. We know that once Ianto gives his loyalty he will follow through often past the point of common sense. Jack is very similar, the Doctor has treated him very badly and yet Jack is still very loyal to him. I would have yelled at the Doctor if I had been treated the way Jack was, but no Jack waits for him and in fact tries to change Torchwood to honour the Doctor. So Ianto and Jack are actually fairly similar.
7. All the interactions between the two show Ianto as more dominant one. He is also the only one that can tell Jack off and Jack will listen and adjust his behaviour. i.e in Meat - Gwen is telling Jack off, does he listen, nope not at all, keeps goading Rhys, but as soon as he asks Ianto if he was showing off and Ianto tells him that he is, he stops it. Jack's response shows that Ianto isn't his fuck buddy, that Ianto is someone whose good opinion he cares for and respects.

Anyone that thinks that Ianto is being pushed around by Jack hasn't watched the show properly and paid attention. They obviously need to be bashed over the head with a blunt object and big words across the screen that "Look here are two guys that care about each other". If you can't pick up on the little things and hints that the writers and the actors are giving us, then go watch an american sitcom, that's probably more your thing, they explain things S L O W L Y and more than once for you to get it. I love this show because I have to pay attention, because I have to watch it more than once. They don't treat the audience like idiots, but as intelligent people who pay attention and want to think.

GDL's recent comments about when it started, he is totally contradicting himself from a much earlier interview which was given just shortly after the completion of filming of s2. In that interview (on his official website) he talks about Fragments and that Ianto didn't quite understand his feelings towards Jack before Cyberwoman, that he was conflicted and that there wasn't anything going on before then. Gareth's recent comments need to be considered within context that he had just been talking about how much he loved the filthiness of fanfiction and was pretty well daring all the fangirls in the room to go write some more involving Ianto felching Jack.

[nikki4noo.livejournal.com]

Also to add that the character of Captain Jack is based very much on John himself, RTD specifically created that character for John to pretty well play himself. Now John is a HUGE flirt but he is in a very committed relationship with his long term partner. Flirting does not = cheating or that the other half is being 'used'.

[lorem_ipsum]

English is my native language and I was surprised to see that nightspring is comfortable with "unfortunate" and not "a shame"...though after thinking about it a bit, I realized it's because "unfortunate" is associated with luck, whereas "shame" is associated with blame.

I think your English is excellent, but people just aren't parsing your original post very closely. (Much like Casual Viewer Dude's understanding of Jack/Ianto, come to think of it.) You ARE blaming, but you're blaming the writing, and a number of the comment replies are not really focused on the question of the writing quality.

(And I can't bring myself to comment on anything else on this topic because I just keep getting mad at TPTB. They know they can get away with stringing us along on this sketchy portrayal of J/I because we're an under-served audience. Exploitive fuckers.)

[tencrush]

I've realised from nightspring's comments that the problem I have with English, which in many respects I DO consider to be my FIRST language, if not my native language, is that I do, when I put my thoughts to paper, like right now for instance, have a slightly Dutch tendency to start using an inordinate amount of subclauses, which comes across as slightly didactic and patronising when I don't actually mean to sound that way. Such as that sentence there. That's a Dutch thing, and not a me thinking everyone else is wrong thing. And it also invites misreadings because people tend to lose my point halfway through a sentence. I fail :(

[blackbird-song.livejournal.com]

What I mean by 'information balance' in this case is that Jack holds his knowledge very close and doesn't share easily. I'm not saying that there aren't things that he should keep to himself, but he is a pretty lousy communicator and doesn't trust people with things they probably should know, or at least, that would go a long way toward opening paths of communication that would be good for the team. Especially in season 1, his leadership style is the quintessential 'my way, or the highway' authoritarianism that just doesn't fly so much, these days. He's always telling people to just do as he says without explanation, and the trust diminishes over the season to the point where they all disobey/betray him over the course of the last two episodes.

You're quite right about the way that Ianto accepts Jack, both in 'Fragments' and throughout the series, in general. I noted and loved it in 'Fragments,' but I had come to expect that of Ianto, particularly after 'To the Last Man.' What I hadn't expected was for Jack to just let it slip that he was a time traveller from the 51st century. You're also right about the events in KKBB, and I agree very strongly that Jack would never have to ask Ianto to accept him for who he was, although he probably had to come pretty close to doing that somewhere after 'Cyberwoman,' at least in terms of earning Ianto's trust. (Obviously, this last would have to be mutual, and Ianto would have the lion's share of that work.)

What you say about Ianto's quiet acceptance prompting Jack to reveal more to him than he does anyone else is right on the money, I think. It's interesting watching Ianto trying to find his feet with Jack in 'Fragments.' He tries a number of ways of being (rentboy, hungry and desperate for work, stalker, pushy) before he settles on confident professional ready to get down to work and assert himself without asking Jack for anything in return. I really love that dynamic between them, and although I do think that Ianto gets whumped a lot in TW, it is done in such a way as to show his enormous strength of being. This is why I cannot see him as Jack's unwitting or unwilling sex toy.

Thank you for letting me ramble about this! I love discussing these two. :)

Catherine

[blackbird-song.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you for this! It's a point I've been trying to make to various people (mostly off the Internet) ever since we saw KKBB. Every now and then, Ianto will ask a question about which he's simply curious, but he accepts it when Jack doesn't want to answer it just then. I'm thinking especially of the boardroom scene in 'From Out of the Rain,' where Ianto asks Jack who sent him to investigate the Night Travellers. Ianto's quiet, gentle and open in his approach to Jack, not screaming and demanding. It's one of my favourite things about watching them together.

Catherine

[blackbird-song.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of this. I really am annoyed with the lack of direction in the writing that would leave room for the idea that Jack would actually treat anybody like that in the current phase of his life. I could maybe see him doing that at some point when he might have been so caught up in his own anger and selfishness that he didn't care, but he has eschewed that, now. (Besides, we are shown his care for the murdered Blowfish in 'Fragments,' where he's really miserable and bitter, so I'm not even sure about his ever allowing himself to treat a subordinate with so little consideration.) Frankly, I think he's far more likely to whore himself out to the highest bidder than to demand that someone do that for him.

I've been tearing my hair out over the whole idea that just because Jack is extremely open to sexual experiences of all sorts, and certainly enjoys talking about them, it must mean that he's out trolling for things with holes every other night. Frankly, I think that he's looking for belonging and love. Belonging and love do not have to mean a monogamous, forever relationship, though it seems clear that Jack can do that, if he needs to. I think that he actually can be an annoyingly needy person, in certain ways, which is why I really can't see him getting together with Gwen on a long-term basis. (They'd kill each other. A lot!) More to the point, though, I think that it's very important to him, at least at this point in his punishingly long life, to be a good man. I think that seeing what's worth saving, what's worth living for, is what keeps him sane through the most impossible of times, and you can't do that and be the sort of person who would knowingly harass a coworker, let alone a subordinate, without their express consent.

There is also the fact that Jack has for some time been patterning his behaviour off that of a World War II British officer, and that code of conduct expressly forbade any such abuse. Jack has clearly modified the code for acceptable contemporary use, of course, and has cheerfully ignored the strictures against homosexual acts all along, but he's kept the important stuff intact.

Given everything that we've seen of both of these characters, I'm not going to be able to view their relationship as one in which Jack is taking callous advantage of Ianto. It just doesn't fit. I'm really angry at the writers for not showing us critical moments anywhere but in the Captain's Blog on BBCA, such as the one you and I and so many others would have liked to see after 'Exit Wounds,' but given the way they have written Jack so far, and the way JB has portrayed him, I simply would not find such an interpretation of him credible at this point, even if the PTB wrote that in in series 3.

Thank you for this post, and for tolerating my rambling. I'll be looking for your poll on the subject. :)

Catherine

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

I'm really angry at the writers for not showing us critical moments anywhere but in the Captain's Blog on BBCA

I wouldn't go so far as to say they haven't shown us *any* "critical moments." Jack's speech and the kiss following it in TtLM should definitely count as a critical moment. And I'd think the asking for a date scene in KKBB and the kiss in End of Days could also be considered one too. And Ianto's flashback in Fragments was, to me, an eight minute long critical "moment"! *g*

I do admit that I tend to be satisfied with subtle moments that perhaps many other people find too subtle to be satisfying, such as Jack's "Never" and the brief hug they share when Jack gets back in Exit Wounds. Or the way Jack shouted "Ianto!" when he was searching for Ianto in the rubble in Fragments. Or going way back to Cyberwoman, how Jack very obviously looks toward Ianto when Gwen asks him if he has ever loved anyone that much. But I also agree that the writers could give us a lot more. However, I also feel saying they haven't given us anything is a little unfair to them.

[blackbird-song.livejournal.com]

*facepalm* I really should be more careful about proof-reading my comments. I had meant to say, '...certain critical moments....' I fail.

I couldn't agree with you more on all the examples you gave. I, too, am very happy with what they have given us, but am angry about the lack of moments at certain critical points in the series. (That would have been a better way to phrase it, in the first place.) I think that those missing vignettes give the viewers justifiable pause when contemplating Jack/Ianto, especially when they've given us such deep and meaningful moments elsewhere. On the other hand, nothing works better for series TV than stringing the viewers along with worry and speculation about the key relationships. Dammit! ;)

Catherine

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Ah, got you! Glad we cleared that up, lol. As for the Captain's Blog, I completely dislike them. Most of the scenes presented there, I feel like, "Thank god they didn't show that!" or "Thank god they didn't go in that direction!" Not to say there aren't "missing scenes" I wish they'd shown. But I also think some details are best left to individual viewers' imagination. For instance, I'm sure we've all imagined what happened with the stopwatch after Jack sent everyone home in TKKS. And I happen to be rather partial to my version, and I'd hate it if the version in the Captain's Blog somehow suddenly became "canon." And I'm not that broken up that we never saw the date mentioned in KKBB, either. We can imagine it happening, we can imagine things getting in the way and they never managed to go on a date -- I wouldn't say no to an on-screen date scene, but since we didn't get one, that's fine too.

[blackbird-song.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit more ambivalent about the Captain's Blog scenes. I love the one posited for 'Adrift', but I really dislike the one for TKKS. I have a sort of Ianto-ish reaction to that one, in that some fetishes are best kept to oneself, at least from a mass-media point of view. (It encourages much more creative fan-fic, that way.;))

I agree with you about the date in KKBB, on all counts. To me, its absence has made for some wonderful speculation and fic, but it'd also be lovely to see them on a date at some point, even if it's not that date.

I have to say that the fact that they haven't shown us everything has made for a very strong and active fandom. It seems as though the writers do understand the fans in many ways, including their desire to speculate and create around the series. Heck, even GDL's website allows the use of Torchwood images when fans are submitting fanart. I hope that will continue with the next series.

Catherine

Just wanted to say

[(Anonymous)]

that I completely disagree with the theory that Jack is basically straight, and I think it is insulting. Also that I know quite a few gay men who watch TW and have never heard them say such a thing. They just view him as bisexual, simply that. He does refer to "boyfriends." Has done a few times. We also know he had a relationship with John. I assume the past marraige and Estelle is just to even the balance a bit so he isn't only ever portrayed in same sex relationships, not to suggest that he is only romantically interested in women, and men are just for sex.

Sorry, just had to rant about that blog, and that gay men suggest it, talk about your internalised homophobia.

Surely the Captain's blog about TKKS is just a joke? He just isn't letting on what really happened.

[julesjones]

The thing I see with Jack is that he flirts with people. Lots of people. And the message he's putting out is "I think you're sexy and if the feeling's mutual I would like to have sex with you. Do you feel the same way about me?" If the answer isn't a clear yes, he accepts that without nagging or pushing. He'll still happily keep on flirting if the answer he gets is "Sex no, flirt yes", but there's no pressure in it.

So flirty and promiscuous, but never one to take advantage. I'm quite sure from what I see on screen that he could try gently with Ianto the day after Fragments to see whether he was reading things correctly, get a less than unequivocal reaction, and back down to flirt-only.

[thespianlizling.livejournal.com]

A sexual Father Christmas?
You are made of win. I think I love you.

[sage-theory.livejournal.com]

These things should be made slightly more unambiguous when it comes to Jack.

Yeah, it should, and they should make it clear what's going on. But this is Torchwood, and we're lucky that they just don't devolve the show into a giant space orgy or something.

[sage-theory.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad it could make you happy :)

[sage-theory.livejournal.com]

His charming persona and ability to adapt have lessened the obvious differences but if you squint, it's still there.

Yeah, and I wish that they would remember this. Even though he's been on Earth in the 20th century a long time, a lot of what he does is just for show. I wish the show would explore his true values and how he views the 21st century from an outsider's point of view.


And also I agree that Ianto is definitely a sort of stealth puppeteer rather than a victim. He knows and probably influences much more than anyone else realizes.

He's a smooth operator indeed. And I think that's why Jack and Ianto work so well. They both have their dominant and submissive facets, but when it comes down to it, I honestly think that Ianto tops from the bottom most times.

I still think that Ianto might secretly be a double agent or something else, because notice how when he's not in sight of anyone in Meat, his kung fu gets like 10x stronger.

[sage-theory.livejournal.com]

In "To the Last Man", Ianto initiates the mega-kiss.

Is it just me or did it totally look like Ianto was thinking, "Jack could use some comfort" and perhaps Ianto was even maybe rewarding Jack for something? I think so.

Ianto is the one to go behind Jack's back and do his own thing in regards to telling Gwen, and it's allowed.

Yeah, I know. I wonder how much that's gone on! Sometimes I think Jack lets him do it because he knows which forms to fill out to make it official. :)

[sage-theory.livejournal.com]

Well, I mean, if Ianto gave *you* an order, wouldn't you obey? ;)

[dissident.livejournal.com]

I still think that Ianto might secretly be a double agent or something else, because notice how when he's not in sight of anyone in Meat, his kung fu gets like 10x stronger.

Heh, Ianto doesn't get enough field action for me to make a proper analysis. Bring on more ninja skills for Yan, I say!

But now I have to go and re-watch Meat frame by frame to see if I missed any details. Damnit!

[rhianona]

I also think that Jack is a fairly private person. He talks the big talk but when it is something close to him, close to home, he doesn't speak of it unless forced to. So stories about the sex aren't important to him, whereas the stories about those he's loved are. And like you said, considering he arrived back in Earth during a fairly repressive period, I doubt he would have very many long term liaisons with men, mostly because it was frowned upon so much for most of the 20th C. I also always got the feeling that many of his alien sex stories were not necessarily very recent, but rather are from before he was immortal. Jack uses sex as a distraction, a way to punt the conversation away from him (Look at Countrycide). what would be nice is if the show would acknowledge one way or the other what Jack and Ianto have together. For every scene like the one in Last man Standing or Adam, we get the bizarre scene between Jack and Gwen in KKBB or the dance scene in Something Borrowed. I could be deluding myself, but I tend to assume that a lot of the unevenness regarding the Jack/Gwen dynamic is due to sloppy writing or unclear motivation. But it are scenes like that that make me dislike Gwen, mostly because they made Rhys into such a great character and then for her to act as she does, without it seems consequences, bothers me a lot. But then, I have big issues about fidelity.

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

Well, I mean, if Ianto gave *you* an order, wouldn't you obey? ;)

Oh hell yeah!

[kaimu.livejournal.com]

they think that jack is basically straight and falls in love with women (estelle, gwen, his unnamed wife) and has shags with men (ianto, various men decsribed in anecdotes)

The problem with this theory to me, is that 2 out of the 3 women have been from a time where it would've been almost impossible for Jack to have an open relationship with a guy.

My interpretation of the men as anecdotes is that (aside from the writers using it to show that Jack is sexually liberal) he's finally in a time period where he can openly make anecdotes about them with minimal retribution (or his partner's are all gone and thus they aren't going to get attacked for it) and is making up for lost time by talking about them.

As for sustaining itself as a canon relationship, I guess since I analyze every look, conversation and any crumbs the actor/actress throw to me for any couple I ship (canon/slash/het/will-never-happen) I'm not as bothered about it.

[sanginmychains.livejournal.com]

Word. You're quite right; canon does not support the interpretation that Jack is the sort of manipulative, cold man who would thoughtlessly use a colleague and friend this way. I much prefer the fics that see Jack as perhaps a little world-weary, a little emotionally wary, but genuinely sincere in his dealings with people. I'm working on something now where Ianto is the one who is more or less using Jack's sexual interest in him, against him (sorry for the assault against prepositional phrases there). It's a pre-Cyberwoman fic, and at that stage in the overall story, Ianto is the one who is motivated to hide, lie, and manipulate. Also, he's rather young, and while that can imply a certain emotional liveliness, it can also mean a certain self-absorption and failure to take in the big picture.

So, good rant. I appreciate your point of view.