I was just fucking witcha...

[tencrush]

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

Comments

[liserific.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry if people "misinterpreting" Jack/Ianto gets you riled up, but the fact is, characterization is just like literature in that it has many interpretations. While I do agree with your points, I do wish you would accept others' points of view as well. And it doesn't even have to be acceptance; tolerance is fine too, just please stop bursting an artery every time you see an idea that doesn't fit yours.

I, too, am terribly defensive of Ianto, and I don't think he would allow himself to be used as a sex toy (with the exception of post-Fragments). Jack, as well, isn't the type of man who would exploit someone in that way, because he has compassion hiding under the "omnisexual-slut" exterior. This interpretation I've come to by myself from watching the show and bringing own experiences to the context; this is the conclusion I have reached.

However, I can't help but feel that you're attacking others' interpretations of this pairing. What you think is out of character may be plausible to other fans, because they too have drawn on their experiences and come to
their conclusions about the relationship. There is no "misinterpretation" unless there is concrete, numerous proof to label it such, and even then...well...people perceive things in different ways, and if their gut feeling tells them that Jack took advantage of Ianto, then why should we dissuade them of it?

If they write fanfiction and metas based on their "wrong" ideas, then don't read it. Fandom is supposed to be a fun, tolerant place that accepts everyone's opinions and encourages discussion. What I feel you're doing is bulldozing over the ideas that do not line up with yours, and I can't help but protest such actions.

I apologize if this offends you because that's not my intention at all. I'm simply trying to say that, even if I agree with your ideas, I do not agree with your method of preaching those ideas. So I will now practice what I preach and stop reading things that upset me, and I sincerely hope for your health that you will do the same.

[rhianona]

It didn't make a lot of sense. I wonder if they were trying to carry over some of the UST from season 1 or some idea that they had regarding their relationship and just failed miserably, especially if the plot changed point.

[(Anonymous)]

Also TW isn't a children's show. Rose is 19 and starry eyed. The two things can't be compared and Jack/Gwen don't work. The reason Nine and Rose worked was chemistry, she didn't have as much with Ten, and it imploded with smugness. RTD was in love with the Dr and Rose himself. Clearly they knew the fans were sick of the companions falling in love with the Dr, so now we have endless comments about Donna and the Dr not fancying each other.

TW is different, the characters are grown up and love and lust for real, it's an adult programme, the Dr/Rose dynamic really can't work, and may well be the cause of so much of the confusion.

[tencrush]

Sorry, which bit of the above is me "bursting an artery", exactly? I never claimed any interpretation was a MISinterpretation, I think any interpretation is as valid as the next, like I said in my righteous anger post, I think the Dude I was talking about had a valid point and valid reasons for seeing the relationship the way he sees it.

My beef is with the fact that the interpretation he has isn't hugely contradicted by canon, and that means that that view of Jack isn't contradicted by canon either. And I think that's a pretty dim view of the hero of the piece, which I think is a shame. I don't really see how explaining why I think that's a shame is preaching, seriously. Do tell.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

That's a really good point about people bringing their own experiences to their interpretations of the show. Thanks for bringing it up!

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Sorry for jutting in on this coversation but it just occured to me --
*You* think that's a shame. Other people, including perhaps RDL and the rest of the Torchwood writing team, maybe don't?

[descrime.livejournal.com]

I definitely see that too. Gwen just can't pull off a Rose. Rose was nineteen, and her youth served her well in that it excused her occasional inability to see how her actions were affecting others and also gave her a measure of vulnerability. Gwen seems insufferably smug and overconfident in her own righteousness to me most of the time, despite the fact that while she has no special skills or knowledge to support the attitude, everyone else on the team does.

Also, Rose doesn't fit into the Torchwood universe and every attempt to make Gwen "adult" or "edgy" or whatever they're trying to do, ends up making her look like a twat: the letting a killer alien loose because she was too good to just hand Owen a tool, the cheating on Rhys and then retconning him, the trying to kiss Jack at her wedding, etc.

Mostly, though, like you said, RTD has assumed that Gwen would be the gateway character for the entire audience, which couldn't be further from the truth for me. I associate with Ianto first, Tosh second, Jack and Owen's order changes depending on the episode, and Gwen fifth, which is probably why her characterization annoys so much to be perfectly honest. If Gwen was my gateway character, I probably wouldn't care.

[tencrush]

Probably not, no. What's your point? I also thought the script for From out of the Rain was an appallingly laughable mess. I'm assuming TPTB didn't or they'd have pulled it.

I'm stating my opinion, that's what I usually tend to do round these parts, isn't it?

[vampyran.livejournal.com]

About the "sir" thing.. I haven't been watching it closely but I seem to remember someone commenting on that Ianto has stopped calling Jack "sir" and says "Jack" now instead...

In the back of my mind I only remember him "sir"ing Jack in Ses.1 and then in the first episode of ses.2

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. Coming from the pov where I already knew Jack/Ianto were a couple, Exit Wounds had some very nice Jack/Ianto moments, namely every single exchange Ianto had with John, the intensity of his "What have you done with him (Jack)?" to Gray, and the "I thought we'd lost you" / "Never" exchange when Jack comes back. But you are right those things wouldn't have clued in a first-time viewer to the fact that J/I are a couple. However, aside from the fact that EW was a season finale, that's not unusal for a Torchwood episode. With judicious selection, you could parade maybe half of all TW episodes in front of an uninformed viewer and have that person never realize that Jack and Ianto are even sleeping together, much less that there could be something more between them. Which I guess is exactly what tencrush is complaining about!

[(Anonymous)]

Actually I would say that everyone I know who watches relates to Gwen last, I think there would only be a minority of viewers who find her a gateway character. I'm referring to people who just enjoy it by the way not even the hard core fans, for whom I think Ianto probably is the favourite. From the first episode I have loved Ianto the most. I think Jack does come second for me. Although maybe equal to Tosh.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

You are coming off a little bit like you think other people are wrong for not sharing your opinion. Like when you say something is a shame, even when you preface it with "I think," it can come off as a pretty strong value judgement.

[descrime.livejournal.com]

Obviously they don't because they wrote it. However, /I/ consider it to be poor writing. Because I don't think leaving whether Jack and Ianto are in a relationship or if they're casually shagging or if Ianto is in love and Jack's taking advantage of that ambiguous does anything to help deepen the story or make it more complex or interject a level of tension to the show. During the show, we are never given a moment to make us question our own perception of Jack/Ianto, and that is the key point, I feel.

The show seems to be saying take whatever perception of Jack and Ianto you can scrounge up and it's all equally valid. Which is ridiculous. This is a relationship between 2 main protagonists and the state of the relationship says a hell of a lot about both of their characters. It says things which shouldn't be ambiguous because, like tencrush says, they are very central to what kind of man Jack is, things the audience needs to know in order to evaluate him.

And I do not think the purpose of television is to create fanfic opportunities so any argument about how this is great for fandom is irrelevant for me. Fandom is side effect of television not the other way around.

[(Anonymous)]

I like your From Out of the Rain icon though!

I like that episode, call me old fashioned. It is the episode where Jack and Ianto get to be Morse and Lewis, Barnaby and Troy, etc. I especially like the scene with Christina, who is a great character, and the two of them are lovely with her. Also the little exposition scene with the J/I in the boardroom. Lots of subtext as per your icon.

[shadowpiranha.livejournal.com]

You know what, you're probably right, because I have been re-watching Season 1, but not Season 2. In any case, I really thought (after it becomes explicit that their relationship isn't simply an employer/employee thing) that it was a kink of sorts, or just the force of habit.

[tencrush]

Is it okay if I just let you do my talking for me so I can go to bed? You seem to be better at explaining what I'm trying to explain than I am. Thank you.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

you make perfect sense to me
personally, i don't think jack is that type of guy and i don't think he is the same guy we met in 'the empty child' either
i mean, he's been around for... years - ppl change over time
the fact that some ppl have that interpretation is the fault of a serious lacking on the writers' part
but we all see what we want to see anyway

[shamazipan.livejournal.com]

The problem for me is that over the whole series I haven't been able to construct a solid view of my own on the relationship between Jack and Ianto or even on Jack himself. I find myself flip flopping like some kind of suffocating fish over it. Of course, LJ doesn't help, as each time I read one of these posts I can completely agree with the argument being set out, as each presented point seems to be valid. The bad thing? Each writer seems to view it differently and so there is "evidence" for just about every view point out there. My way round it? I am a Janto fangirl in the extreme. My heart belongs to Ianto. I see the bits that show how good this relationship could have been shown onscreen (Adam, The scene at the table in FOOTR) and cling on to those for dear life.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

You know, I sometimes think as far as Janto is considered, TPTB *are* aiming to just create fanfic opportunities! And yes, as you point out, that's a perversion of what TV shows should be, but that's the only rational explanation that occurs to me for the way they handle Janto.

It's just that I've decided that for my emotional health, it's better to not spend energy running around wagging a finger at TPTB and crying "for shame!" at them for doing this. But you know what? It just occured to me that everyone has their own way of handling frustration. So I'll shut up now and just comment on threads that discuss the show and the characters, and try to stay away from discussions of what the show should be, because I see that tends to lead to me getting frustrated at other people being frustrated -- which isn't a good place to be.

[tencrush]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how saying that I think something is a shame comes across as anything other than me, personally, thinking it's unfortunate.

[descrime.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's why I said RTD really miscalculated. I think we are supposed to identify with her because of the continued harping about how Gwen's the normal one and the only one with a life. *rolls eyes* Though it would be interesting to see the actual percentages for how much of a randomly chosen population sees each character as their gateway character. Fandom's biased because there are only certain kinds of people who willing spend hours writing long messages about how they view a television show (that would be me) and those people usually have friends that share similar outlooks on things.

[liserific.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, it's just that when I read your link on torch_wood ("...that gets me so riled up about people misinterpreting Jack/Ianto"), I got the idea that you do think of other points of view as "misinterpretations." Also, there just seems to be a lot of anger in your posts - that's really all I meant.

So in that way, with your "righteous anger" and (what I perceived to be) intolerance, I did think you were preaching. Don't get me wrong; you are entitled to anger. And I agree that it is a shame that they would advocate such a relationship, but again, it's the way you present it that gets to me.

But maybe I misinterpreted your point of view and your ideas, and if that is the case, I do sincerely apologize.

[(Anonymous)]

I really can't see writers just wanting to create fan fiction opportunities! I'm glad they are giving it time, it may last longer than the average on screen relationship. Surely the point is that this is a sci fi show, they can't turn it into a soap and have people sit about angsting about relationships.

I remember after the snog in TTLM, a lot of comments about how people generally loved it because they felt it was part of the plot, and worked, not shoehorned in or superfluous relationship stuff. The men I know who watch feel very strongly on that point, they don't mind a little bit if it fits with the plot, but they want action and monsters and sci fi as well. Having said that, I have also heard quite a few women say the same thing, they hate too much of it in either DW or TW, they can watch elsewhere for angst and soap.

I really feel that less is more, and have been quite happy with what they have done this season. I do agree that they could get away with a little more, but too much and the whole thing would be doomed. People have commented on the others having bed scenes, but bed scenes are scenes of doom, certainly for Owen and Tosh. I doubt they will mirror Gwen/Rhys with Jack/Ianto. I would like to see a little more domesticity in the next series, definitely. Porn would also be nice. Not too much though, that just makes me anxious.

[descrime.livejournal.com]

Ha, ha. When I first stumbled across your journal, I was like, dude, she's reading my brain, because this is exactly how I feel about Torchwood. I love it, but it drives me crazy. In fact, just before I saw your last post on this topic, I had just posted a long rant on the Torchwood Writers Union about how ambiguous Jack and Ianto's relationship was in the show and how it annoyed me. Which I'm sure they didn't appreciate. So I'm glad I get the chance to keep talking on and on about it here. ^^

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

"Unfortunate" -- now that's a good word. Conveys disappointment/dissatisfaction without quite so much implicit value judgmenent. ;)