The Jack/Ianto thread (part ONEHUNDREDBILLION)

[tencrush]

So... my head's been a bit spaced and I've been spending my time on the doctorwhoforum arguing with guys about Ianto. As you do. I say "guys" because doctorwhoforum, of course, has a far larger proportion of people of the male persuasion than LJ has, and I forget that sometimes. Anyway, and so it came to pass that I ended up fighting with some dude about Ianto and Jack/Ianto. The argument was about the relationship, and whether or not there was anything more to it than Jack using Ianto as a sex toy, which, in the dude's opinion, there was not. Now, as you know, I have argued the dude's point in the past, in as much as I, also, felt that the protrayal of the relationship as a LOVING one was somehow lacking. Peaking around the time of Something Borrowed, I thought the relationship was being shown as incredibly superficial and sex-based, and so, if the argument hadn't degenerated into a farcical slanging match, I would have conceded that the dude had a point in seeing it the way he was seeing it. And the whole sorry business made me realise something, and that something is this.

The dude, which is what I shall call him, was not much more than a casual viewer. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the the dude qualified as "the average viewer". He's seen the episodes once or twice, and had missed one or two. He watched Torchwood the same way I watch House. Enough to know who's who, what their history's like, where they stand with each other and who's doing whom, but maybe I've missed the odd episode along the way.

And the thing with this dude is, that he's COMPLETELY RIGHT. Have you seen how much we've analysed this relationship? How many words we have written to try and figure out what's going on? Not just me, crabby_lioness, antelope_writes, fodian, God knows who else, and you know what all of that means, at the end of the day? It's this:

ANY RELATIONSHIP REQUIRING THIS MUCH IN THE WAY OF ANALYSIS HAS BEEN WRITTEN AND FLESHED OUT TO AN UNSATISFACTORY DEGREE.
End of story. The writing = FAIL.

The dude thinks Ianto is Jack's sex toy, and that is because the dude has seen what's been shown, has maybe missed one or two episodes and when you do that, THAT'S WHAT YOU SEE. I LIVE with a Dude, he sees the same thing. There is NOTHING in the way this relationship has been written, that, on a gut level tells you that THIS IS A ROMANCE. And if it's not there on a gut level for Average Viewer, then no amount of analysis and rambling on is going to put it there for Average Viewer, because Average Viewer doesn't read pages of analysis about TV. The dude's got Top Gear to be watching.

I often wonder if they WANTED us to see a romance, or if that was never their intention, and I'm starting to think that maybe that was never their intention. I had a bit of a thought, you see, and it was about GDL, who in an interview once expressed his annoyance at the no-bible ting, and at Russell in particular, because when he'd asked Russell where he was supposed to be taking Ianto, Russell had replied something like "That's for me to know and you to find out LOL!" Arsehole. And that led me to thinking, how much were the actors actually told, Gareth and John specifically? To what extent would a question like "So where is this relationship going, are they in love, in lust, what?" even have been answered by TPTB? Because, seriously, look at all our analysis, how much of it is based on ACTOR-DRIVEN CHARACTERISATION??? How much of what we think about this relationship may well be based solely on decisions made by people like Gareth, who upon not receiving an adequate answer with regards to their character's motivations, decide for themselves that they're going with "in love" and they're going to stick with that for 13 episodes? Honestly, if you take out the actor-led stuff from Gareth and John, a few telling moments in the way of direction and a whole lot of pasted on shippery from a weblog, what are you left with, in terms of script, when it comes to Jack/Ianto?

I say a big fat nowt.



ETA, My answer? I wrote it onna OG:
In an ideal world, for me, this relationship would redeem itself very neatly by Ianto dumping Jack in the next series. It would show us who WAS in charge of the relationship's progression and it would give Ianto a nice amount of dignity, something which in some people's eyes he's missing, and it would end this abominable mess of contradictory writing. Blech. I don't really think it can be fixed any other way.
And then, hopefully, the new team will put a bible in place and people's characters can actually develop neatly and all the writers can actually write to the same bloody tune and stop us gnawing our keyboards to bits in frustration and anger.

And the reason I say that, is because I'm quite fond of Ianto as a character and I don't think the Jack/Ianto relationship is doing him any favours. I'll quote tigercheetah from the OG: "When a significant number of fans still regard Ianto as only being "the tea boy, Jack's shag interest and the general support guy" - even if the writers didn't intend for that to be the case - there's something going wrong somewhere when it comes to the writing of the Janto relationship." Word. Even if it isn't a significant number, it's still a worrying effect.

Comments

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

there are so many words for HOW RIGHT YOU ARE that i cannot even think of them

my belief: the show is merely fandom fodder - yeah, that's right, they knew ALL ALONG that the fans would EAT IT UP and so they merely dangle bits (shh, we're being serious here) in front of us then let us run wild

which is fun, sure, but DAMMIT i want some clarity FFS! just a little

[tencrush]

I'm not saying the actor has that much power in this regard, I'm saying we as that percantage of fans who overanalyse television are placing too much emphasis on minor things like actor-driven characerisation (though, in Gareth's defense, HE added the crying at the end of Fragments? Seriously? Because if that is in any way even CLOSE to being the case, then the writing on this show is FRIGHTENINGLY BAD.)

I'm saying that to Joe Q. Public there's not that much there. (I live with one of these guys, he pretty much has the same opinion, honestly he's not a homophobe, far from it, he's just not seeing much from a casual watching of the show apart from gay sexcapades.)

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

In short: more skin on "Love Boat".

[tencrush]

No, preferably less.

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

Hey yo yo...

The one thing about TW that annoys me above all other is the sloppy writing. That's what it comes down to...sloppy. Individual writers may come up with an awesome story (I loved TTLM, personally), but as a whole...eh. It needs a bible STAT. It needs the producers to sit down with the writers and tell them point-blank where they want the story to go, STAT. It needs to pull its head out of its rear and give us a story. I'm more than a bit unhappy about Chibnall leaving because as a whole, the Chibnall scripts were a bit better written and executed than others (and please, please, please don't let PJ Hammond loose without a handler!).

It's amazing that the actors were able to do what they did with what they had. I mean, Naoko Mori? She generally didn't get enough time on screen to sneeze and say bless you, but when she did, she knocked it clear out of the park.

[tencrush]

*nods vehemently*
Yep. What you said there.

[(Anonymous)]

I'd like Jack and Ianto to work out but I don't see a relationship from Jack's side.

Ianto, I can believe is in love with Jack but I have no idea how Jack feels beyond that he'd feel for any team member.

Trying to remember the episodes wrt writing. Possibly there's enough Ianto stuff to construct his feelings for Jack from the writing but definitely not to construct feelings that Jack has for Ianto. Gwen's the important relationship for Jack as far as the writers and producers are concerned.

I remember an interview with old Doctors during a time after Doctor Who was cancelled and before the new series came on. One of the actors I think it was either Peter Davison or Colin Baker (probably Davison) talked about the wobbly sets and said the show made a fortune for the beeb he couldn't believe how little they invested back into it. I think Torchwood's the writing equivalent of old Doctor Who set design. I've only watch the pilot of the Sarah Jane Adventures but I bet they take more care over the consistency and writing of that than they do of Torchwood.

I also get the feeling sometimes that Torchwood's there to service Doctor Who and it suffers because of it.

[iko.livejournal.com]

So very true.

So much of what I have in Torchwood in my head regarding Jack and Ianto is my own personal canon because there isn't a lot of it on the screen (and what little exists is only consistent and interesting is because the actors make it so). And you are absolutely spot on regarding why it isn't better.

[quirky-kittens.livejournal.com]

I think that Jack and Ianto breaking up is probably that only way to make Ianto's character come across as more than the part time shag and general support but only if Ianto broke up with him as you said. I'd be slightly worried that if that was to happen that the writers would make it Jack dumping Ianto and going for Gwen while Ianto went all angsty and pathetic. That to me sounds worse than him seeming to be the part time shag and general support

[ningengirai.livejournal.com]

If Jack dumps Ianto and goes for Gwen, I'm going to end up hating Jack. I mean, all things considered, he's already a bit of an... I want to say asshole, but that's too harsh. Jack, to me, is one of the people I love to watch on screen, but I'd murder him in real life.

[holdingoff.livejournal.com]

As always, so very well said. and just to add a little more petrol to the fire, don't forget the comments made by one of the PTB at that recent event "we don't generate the bbc america blog". Read the fine print "New Video Channel America, LLC" is responsible for the original content on the bbc america website. So for all those people looking for more, throw the whole captain's blog stock out the window.

I know what RTD is trying to do with Torchwood- he's trying to create a more dynamic writer-driven world where there are no limitations on the writers- bascially a writer's wet dream. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work in a structured television series. It works fine for anthology type shows (Outer Limits, Twilight Zone) but Torchwood isn't an anthology and it has a consistent cast that deserves at least some reliable, basic structure to work with. How are actors supposed to develop their characters to the best ability if they can't even rely on some shred of consistent character traits?

A question for someone that keeps better track of UK television than I do, has RTD *ever* had a program last more than 2 series? I can't remember anything of his that had any staying power because they usually fall quickly back to cliches. Even DW is now looping back to previous stories for structure.

[tencrush]

As always, so very well said. and just to add a little more petrol to the fire, don't forget the comments made by one of the PTB at that recent event "we don't generate the bbc america blog". Read the fine print "New Video Channel America, LLC" is responsible for the original content on the bbc america website. So for all those people looking for more, throw the whole captain's blog stock out the window.
*nods* Yes. Exactly. It's the sort of comment that goes to show that they have NO GRIP on this show as a coherent whole, and NO DESIRE to create a cohesive, consistent narrative across the board. They're not responsible for the novelisations, either, nor are they responsible for the magazine, and they obviously can't be bothered to even hand out that piece of A4 paper I suggested to get everybody MORE OR LESS (I'm not even asking for STRICTLY, I'm just asking for MORE OR LESS) on the same page when it comes to the characterisation and narrative. It DOESN'T WORK for a show like this, because this isn't an anthology show, no matter how much they'd like it to be.

I don't think Russell's ever had a programme last more than 2 series, no. (Though, on the whole, I have to say I've been very pleasantly surprised by Who this series. In fact, I'm shocked by how much I like it.) But then, really bland sitcoms and formulaic hospital dramas aside, most really creative British writing doesn't tend to stand up for any longer than that. Even Moffat, who I regard as a Godlike genius, had immense trouble keeping Coupling from going rapidly downhill after two series, and many would say he shouldn't have bothered. His earlier efforts, Joking Apart and Chalk, both had 2 series and ended cleanly, much to the chagrin of the fans, but Moffat himself was of the opinion at the time that that was it, he'd created a story, taken everyone along for the ride and now it was over. Unfortunately with Coupling he believed his own hype and carried it on. I think he probably regrets it. I don't know what it is about the British approach to writing that doesn't quite hold up for any longer, but the best work does seem to be in the genre of STORIES THAT END. Life on Mars being a prime example, two series, done. The premise carried on in Ashes to Ashes, obviously, but Life on Mars itself had nowhere else to go. And that was good, it's the best kind of British writing, but this? They just don't know what they want it to be, and it's becoming quite a problem.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

I agree with parts, and I disagree with parts of this.

I agree with you that the writing of the Jack/Ianto relationship has been pretty inconsistent-- and the same is true for the way that Jack/Gwen and Tosh/Owen and a whole bunch of other pairings (or potential pairings) have been written. One week they'll be going one way, the next week, another.

BUT, I don't agree that our compulsive need to over-analyse every single bit of Janto interaction is necessarily evidence of that poor writing. Back in the 90s I was really into Lois and Clark and even though this was pre-internet, I had a group of friends who fulfilled much the same function that LJ does today. While the writing on this show wasn't high art by any means, it was at least a show in which the main characters were already established as an OTP from the outset, all the writers knew this, and we all know how it was going to end up-- but we STILL compulsively analysed every conversation, every little glance, EVERYTHING.

Now, I don't believe that Jack/Ianto is an OTP by any means, but I do think that, as inconsistent as the writing has been, there is at least as much evidence for a loving (though not Twue Wuv) relationship as there is for a purely sex-based relationship, and seeing that isn't necessarily a matter of obsessively analysing everything-- because frankly, I think we'd still be doing that even if the writing was handled better.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I agree with you that the writing of the Jack/Ianto relationship has been pretty inconsistent-- and the same is true for the way that Jack/Gwen and Tosh/Owen and a whole bunch of other pairings (or potential pairings) have been written. One week they'll be going one way, the next week, another.'
Excellent point. As much as I love this show the writing is very inconsistent episode to episode.

'Now, I don't believe that Jack/Ianto is an OTP by any means...'
I don't either. It's just not logically possible. Jack's going to outlive EVERYONE including Ianto. I do think that Jack loves him as much as he can at this point.

[glorfindelghost.livejournal.com]

The lack of a show bible makes me weep. Seriously. I think we have about three separate birthdays for Owen at this point and its so frustrating.

And I remember reading that snippet about GDL putting in the crying at the end of 'Fragments' and just being bewildered at the fact that he had more of a grasp on the character than the writers. Worrying.

And on J/I? I kind of have a pet theory on that one, because I agree that the writing for the relationship was unsatisfying and unsubstantive. I rather think that they left J/I on the backburner for this season, having done what they needed to do and got them together and then pretty much just gave us snippets - They had Gwen to marry and Owen to kill (twice) and they simply couldn't (or wouldn't) find the creative space to bring J/I centre stage. A few people have said that season 3 was always supposed to have a lot more Ianto related stuff so I wonder if, having laid the groundworks, we'll finally get the payoff in series 3.

[(Anonymous)]

I interpret the 'we'll have to wait for season 3 to find out more about Ianto' stuff as basically a euphemism for 'there's bugger all character development for Ianto in season 2' rather than any promise that we'll actually learn anything about him in Season 3. We may not learn any more in season 3 than in season 2.

[kalliopeia.livejournal.com]

Personally I think they're just trying to have it both ways. I do think it's there, intentionally. No actor is going to be allowed to take his or her character in a direction that the people who run the show don't want that character to go. Yes, the things that we analyse and think about are things that a casual viewer could overlook, and I think they do that on purpose so that if you don't want to think there is a significant relationship there it's easy to dismiss it and if you do, it's easy to see.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. Agree 100%!

[becky-da-wolf.livejournal.com]

I'm interested, have you read the BBC America Captain's Blogs (http://bbcamerica.com/content/262/s2_captainsblog.jsp)? So long as you consider them online canon and take them with a pinch of salt (ie, may or may not be contradicted my main canon at some point) they're a nice place to view the Jack/Ianto relationship from.

If you can't be bothered to trawl through all 26 entries, I've got all the Ianto references organised here (http://becky-da-wolf.livejournal.com/4720.html) as part of my Captain's Blog Project (http://becky-da-wolf.livejournal.com/6485.html).

[tencrush]

Yes. It's what I'm referring to when I say "pasted on shippery". It's cute, granted, but it's one of the most damning indications that TPTB don't give a damn about consistent characterisation, to the extent that they'll let someone from outside of the production come in and write whatever the hell they want without so much as the merest of guidelines as to which direction they would like the content to take and how they wold like it to fit in the narrative whole.

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

I think this is a good and thoughtful post but I don't really agree.
My confusion comes from the fact that I've never seen anything in any episode to indicate that Ianto is just a sex toy for Jack. In fact, when it comes right down to it there's more to indicate that Jack is a sex toy for Ianto than the other way 'round. So where so many people have come to that conclusion is beyond me and if I was writing Torchwood I'd be wondering the same thing. I wonder if some of it doesn't come from people trying to see them as a traditional straight couple or something. In particular a traditional straight 'young' couple. Which they aren't.

Twice we've seen a discussion where one of them is proposing sex to the other, both times it was Ianto doing the propositioning. At the wedding I never saw Jack's joke about doing Ianto as anything more than just that, a joke, in which I might add Ianto comes just under saving the world. I'll give Jack a buy in the greenhouse scene when he asks Ianto if he's coming back in because he was seriously pissed off in the entire scene. Anyone who took that offer of 'always room for one more' wasn't paying attention. Jack was pissed off. And Ianto knew it too and tried to diffuse the situation.

Are they in love with each other? I don't know. I think they're on the way there. I think they certainly love each other, but of course that's entirely different from being in love with each other.
Is the relationship good for Ianto? Yeah, I think it is right at the moment. I think it's good for Jack too. I don't think either one of them is really ready for a deep all consuming love right now. They care about each other, they're having fun together, there don't have to be any secrets or lies about what they do. I'm ok with it and I think they are ok with it.

[ripley312.livejournal.com]

amen, sister.

[insevens.livejournal.com]

While I agree that the relationship could be taken two ways, it's everything that we don't see that makes me think it's more than just sex. The canon of the books and website is arguable to say the least, but it's clear in the Captain's Blog and the latest run of TW novels that they're in a proper, or as proper as Jack can make, relationship. Talking from experience, it's very easy to start off being casual with each other, then waking up one day and realising that you're in over your head. I think this is what happened around episode three of Season Two. Jack basically tells Ianto he loves him! What more do people want? :)

Very good meta, though. I love seeing how non-fans view the show when they watch it.

[tencrush]

Like holdingoff says up there, though, the captain's blog lies entirely outside the responsibility of the production team. It's not led or even vaguely guided by anyone involved in the actual making of the show. It's the fact that it's not even vaguely guided by the production that bugs me te most, because it leads to inconsistent characterisation and nobody seems to give a flying one about that. Same goes for the books.

Funnily enough, this dude hadn't seen To the Last Man, that was the episode he hadn't seen. You wouldn't believe what sort of impression you get about this relationship if you miss that one crucial episode, and the fact that that is the case says a lot about the characterisation in the episodes that follow. It's all over the place. Missing ONE SCENE in the story arc shouldn't change someone's outlook on the story to that extent, it tells me there's something lacking in the overall storytelling.

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

Chill. The dude I live with is a casual viewer who thinks Jack/Ianto makes perfect sense, so it's not an exclusively male thing. And it's not something we discuss, because RL doesn't leave us any time to talk about it, so he hasn't been influenced by me.

In fact, I personally haven't heard from any casual viewer who doesn't think Jack/Ianto makes perfect sense. Judging by Ianto's fans on all the non-TW/DW places I frequent, many casual fans adore Jack/Ianto. Two people does not make a representative sample.

Yes, I overanalyze TW. But let's not put the cart in front of the horse. I overanalyze TW because I get Jack/Ianto. I do not overanalyze TW in order to get Jack/Ianto. If I didn't completely grok what I see on the screen in the first place, I wouldn't love it enough to overanalyze it.

[tencrush]

I overanalyze TW because I get Jack/Ianto. I do not overanalyze TW in order to get Jack/Ianto.
I do. To a certain extent, anyway. And I like to think of myself as a reasonably intelligent woman with a reasonably sophisticated view of the world. And yet I do feel that on a certain level I need to analyse this relationship in order to come to a satisfactory conclusion as to what is going on. And I'm not the only one, I've read and responded to enough comments on my meta posts to know that a lot of people are in the same two-minded boat when it comes to figuring out what they're being shown.

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

And nobody has yet explained to me what Jack has done to deserve being dumped. You want Ianto to dump Jack in order to make Ianto look better? In my eyes, dumping someone without sufficient reason is a way to make that person look like a Grade A jackass and would permanently damage my esteem for Ianto. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this way.

[cowboyhd.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on this. I love Jack and Ianto equally and may have a few extra soft spots for Jack and able to cut him some slack, but I've failed to see why some people think Ianto would be better off calling it off with Jack or think that Jack neglecting Ianto.

[thisbedear.livejournal.com]

The fan reaction, the overzealous outpouring of squee, to Janto - and Gareth - I'm sure took TPTB, the writing staff, RTD and the actors by surprise. From my observations of S1, watching it while in the middle of S2, Janto were meant solely to bring home the point that Jack is an omnisexual creature that's up for a shag regardless of equipment, cause a few raised eyebrows, but all the writer's relationship eggs were tossed into the Gwen, old standby formula basket. (Don't think they counted on the Rhys love out there, either)

But, between the end of production on S1 and pre-production on the second, the noise from the fans became deafening. They had a bonified phenom on their hands. What to do with Janto now?

As S2 progressed, especially after "Meat" - which was actually supposed to air BEFORE TTLM, and "Adam" was also pushed from it's original airing spot - the Gwack slowly faded away whilst the Jack defering and relying on Ianto moved to the fore. The Ianto flashback in "Fragments" was written as a romcom for Janto, and there was nary a mooney-eyed look from either party in "Exit Wounds." And wasn't the bullet in "Reset" originally meant for Ianto? Why kill off a strong supporting character, a vital member of the team, in favor of 'the tea-boy' if bigger, better things were waiting down the road?

Compare the number of Gareth's appearances from breaks 1 & 2. Ianto, the later half of Janto, is a hit!

For all his protestations to the contrary, RTD (whom, I think, listens and believes his own press a tad bit too much) is not immune to allowing the bottom line to shade and color his artistic vision. Wouldn't have lasted this long in the business otherwise. Janto was bringing the viewers in, droves arriving daily from that commercialized cash cow known as BBCA, a shout-out thanks to Youtube and the internet, as well, and if the creative team at TW weren't paying attention, the suits certainly were.

Janto is what sells. Therefore, more Janto.

Only the writers weren't quite sure how to do that. They fumbled around, (The KKBB date that never happened) hinting, ("You gave me meaning again."), joking, ("Pizza, Ianto, saving the world a few hundred times"), innuendoing, ("Weevil hunting with Ianto!"), even gave us mutual handjobs in the hot house!, but it never quite hit the right, legitimate relationship mark so desired by Woodies (which, may I say, is a completely apropos nickname for fans of Captain Jack).

And that's where this stream of consciousness rambling agrees with your points on a clear, concise, through line, over-arcing direction for character development is non-existent for TW. A show 'bible' is essential for any mythology show, as TW is, and if it's not firmly in place, a mess ensues, thus causing fan disillusionment and defection. (i.e. "Lost" and to some extent "X-Files") And again I agree that asses need to let loose of some heads before the great migration occurs.

Whether to Janto or not to Janto - which this fangirl would be sorely disappointed if it came to not to Janto - makes no never mind. Pick a course and stick to it, RTD et al! Youse guys are the professionals here, and even we avocational folks can grasp the concept.

On a side note, speaking as an actor myself, if the subtext is not in the lines, not given by the director, he/she will find it somewhere. Can't get a true performance without it. And considering what we've been graced with thus far from the TW actors, I would say that each one is listening to a very complex, multi-layered and angst ridden inner monologue.

[tencrush]

Well said. I'm always interested in anyone who can enlighten me from an acting perspective, as I'm of the opinion, like you are, that if there is that much of a void (as has been reported) in terms of direction and information regarding motivation and characterisation, an actor is going to fill in the blanks themselves, and I think a lot of what we're seeing could be John and Gareth's filling in of those blanks.

[cowboyhd.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna reserve judgment and see how S3 plays out. I was pretty satisfied with S2 actually despite a few things that annoyed me like Jack/Gwen (which I still fail to see when did it all begin, to me it's a complete out of left field even more so than stopwatch scene) or the robbery of Janto scenes in 2x13.

If S2 was supposed to be them just dabble, then I'm totally fine with that as much as I'd like more screen time of them, it's actually not that bad and all these subtle things still actually managed to show us their progress in the relationship. Even if casual viewers don't pick up on those, they wouldn't feel it's out of the left field if they actually turn it into an official relationship in S3.

As for S3, I'd like for them to take an ep to establish that they're officially in a relationship. I'd be annoyed if S3 will be another dabble series. For me, it's obvious that they love each other and also in love, it's just a matter of admitting it and make it official. Then they can bring it back to background and I'd be totally fine, as long as they do it justice and really keep it up. Keep up the things like Ianto putting coat on Jack and other little domestic stuffs that goes on in the background will be totally fine for me. Also, make it that they can kiss like straight couples would do on TV and no need to create "build up" or wait for holiday or special occasions for Jack/Ianto to kiss (that we can see).

I guess I kinda rambled... in a nutshell, I don't want Jack/Ianto stories front and center, I want it to be in the background but consistent (S2 did semi-decent on this despite a few bumps). I'd be completely fine with no real story at all (as long as they properly establish the relationship and soon, S3 preferably), just them being all couple while saving the world, and I'd be happy.

I hope I made some sense at all.....

[louiex.livejournal.com]

Just to throw in my own two cents, as a fic writer and viewer, its true the lack of consistent character depth can only hinder than help in the long run. Shows that have character bibles (Take the bulk of the Whedon-verse and shows like Supernatural) know where the start and stop of things are, know the flow and have a plan. While its still possible to have episodes done by a group of writers not necessarily talking to one another while they plan the episodes, RTD has said himself that he's gone in and tweeked things for things to come (See Ianto's 'gloves come in pairs' line from the end of TKKS to hint at a second glove arc even from then). It might be that there is a bible, RTD just isn't keen on sharing and will handwave off most stuff unless it conflicts/he can add onto it to make it fit the plan he has at the moment.

On the Jack/Ianto side of things, yeah as viewers we are keenly lacking insights into our MAIN CHARACTER good ol' Captain Jack. Other than his history with Gray, we still know little about him and what he feels at the end of the day (which is why I know I cling to the BBC-A captain's blog even if it is unconnected because its something !). We know Ianto cares about Jack from several scenes over the two seasons ranging from 1x13 with Jack's coat to Captain John's teasing of Ianto demanding to speak to Jack at the beginning of Exit Wounds. He does care but I have to wonder that the reason we see Jack holding back is because it is a work/personal relationship. As the boss, he can't outwardly show favoritism and can't endanger Ianto in the field by being overly protective (ie: the difference in reactions between Jack and Gwen when Ianto and Rhys were the ones captive in Meat).

I know I'm trying to rationalize the well... lack of anything concrete, but I'd like to give a bit of credit to TW in spite of the glaringly obvious issues that are there :D Besides, in a way I can't really complain! These holes in characterization/plot/background leave a lot open for fic writers like me to explore until a scene/plot start to make sense! :D

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'As the boss, he can't outwardly show favoritism and can't endanger Ianto in the field by being overly protective (ie: the difference in reactions between Jack and Gwen when Ianto and Rhys were the ones captive in Meat).'
Not to mention that it seems like Ianto is very sensitive when it comes to actuations of favoritism. In Exit Wounds he didn't even want Jack to hug him and whenever their in the field they NEVER touch.

from torchwood_three

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

I think you're reasoning is kind of flawed. The average viewer is quite like a fandom person - their bring their own bias to the show. If you gathered twenty different people and asked them their opinions on Torchwood, you'd probably get about twenty different views.

For me, what I bring in it, is me being happy that the show can and does explore Jack/Ianto and Jack/Gwen without pitting them against each other. I appreciate that Gwen choose Rhys because she can count on him and that Ianto is mildly amused about the whole Jack/Gwen affair. I don't see that on TV much.

I get why people would be annoyed with the continuity in Torchwood because there is none. But really.

[addyke.livejournal.com]

The simple problem is that the writers haven't a clue who Ianto Jones is. This was a minor character who was supposed to die at the end of Cyberwoman - what no-one was counting on was a talented actor that really, really brought the role alive - thus the stay of execution.
Ianto was really tacked into a lot of the epsiodes in Season One as an afterthought - suddenly faced with writing for a character who was supposed to have died, they had to give the character something - hence playing with a few seeds sown in Episode One, plus the fanastic interaction behind Jack and Ianto in Cyberwoman (one of the finer points of an episode I scrawled 'Needs to fulfil its potential - could do better' all over), add a stopwatch..
Another thing the writers weren't expecting - the chemistry between JB and GDL is amazing, and Janto was born.
Chris Chibnall, in particular (quite sad he's left now), gives GDL a hell of a lot of credit as an actor, in more than one source - how much of Ianto's character is the writing and how much is in GDL's protrayal of him?

Sadly the writing of the show so far associates Ianto with two things - Lisa. Jack. And the writing often doesn't give enough to establish that Jack/Ianto relationship as more than a convinent workplace shag (CC, HR and CT certainly give more depth to that relationship than others).

Personally I think the best cure is give Ianto (not Janto) a big story arc next season - you could explore the Jack/Ianto relationship as a consequence of it (much like Tosh/Owen was explored following Owen's (first) death) but we need something else to define Ianto, something to really bring out the character in his own right - apart from his relationship to another character. It would force the writers to actually think about characterisation and after the performance he pulled off in Adam, it would be a crime not to give GDL something big to work with next year...

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'how much of Ianto's character is the writing and how much is in GDL's protrayal of him?'
Personally, I big part of the reason I like Ianto so much is because Gareth really seems to 'get' the character, even if the writers don't.

'Personally I think the best cure is give Ianto (not Janto) a big story arc next season' I hope so. I really want to see Ianto as a character in his own right. Is it too much to ask for to see his flat?

[(Anonymous)]

i discovered torchwood when series 2 started and instantly loved janto before i really knew anything about their history and before i'd seen series 1. i only got really into it after TTLM and from what i'd seen then i was happily convinced jack/ianto was a serious thing. even when i got really into it i still felt the same & when i read peoples comments about ianto being a 'sex toy' i wondered if i was watching the same show as them.
as for people 'over-analysing' that is exactly what this post does...& i don't see why that is a problem because as far as im concerned its called having an imagination.
i dont understand why there has to be just ONE view on jack/ianto that is correct, people seem to be forgetting these are fictional characters. fictional characters are there to be played around with.

in conclusion, just enjoy the boy love people :)

[descrime.livejournal.com]

I was just thinking about how Adam really reinforces this notion that Jack and Ianto aren't in a relationship and what they have isn't really worth exploring unless you can make a sex joke out of it.

Adam was all about showing the romantic relationships among the crew and how they could be changed by just the rearranging of a few memories. Owen was pinning after Tosh who now was treating him like Owen used to treat her. Gwen forgot Rhys totally, while she had been forgetting him partially the whole season. And so what changed in the Jack/Ianto relationship? We don't know. Because the writer decided that it wasn't important enough to ever look into.

I do not count the Jack believing he's not a serial killer thing as evidence for one way or the other, because Jack would have acted the exact same way if it had been any of the other three. Jack has always shown a huge blind spot for his team and an absolute belief that they can do no wrong (re: Suzie). He would have handled it exactly the same way (including the hug and everything) if it had been Owen, not Ianto.

And then, at the end, we get the cringe worthy "You gave me meaning again" to which Jack patronizingly kisses Ianto's forehead and doesn't reply, cementing that this does seem to be a one-way deal. Then again, I found that entire table scene to be nauseating.

[descrime.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I just wanted to say. I loved the office scene in KKBB because like you said, it seemed to be Jack saying he did care about Ianto and it was more than just office sex. I loved Sleeper and the playful, mildly sexual teasing between them where Ianto got the upper hand. And the kiss scene in TTLM seemed to cement that there really was something going on, and then...it just stopped.

After three episodes of really strong Janto, we then had the ending of Meat, the nonexistence of Adam, the "dabbling" of Reset, nothing in Dead Man Walking, the unsure "It isn't like that" of A Day in the Death, and the absolutely hideous Something Borrowed in which Gwen proved that she definitely doesn't deserve Rhys and we had the most uncomfortable dance in history.

From Out of the Rain was so awful writing-wise I've blocked it from memory, but I actually did like Adrift, because it shows that out of all of them, Ianto's the only one who can defy Jack and not be smacked down by authorial fiat. However, that has nothing to do with the Janto emotional relationship. The Fragments memory was of course awesome, but that's because we have proof that Ianto has l33t skills and that Myfawny is his. And in Exit Wounds we once again have not a single moment of just Jack and Ianto, and they don't even touch without Gwen having hugged Jack first.

So, three awesome episodes in the beginning and one good flashback at the end. It's no wonder I'm getting depressed. ^^

[sarka.livejournal.com]

Okay, just as a preface to this comment, if I utter the word "postmodernism" in any permutation in here somewhere, I give you carte blanche licence to shoot me.

I agree that the Jack/Ianto interaction is often sloppily written on the show, but then again, I think all the portrayals of interpersonal relationships on the show are severely lacking in focus and clarity.

However, the fact is that all interaction with media involves a certain level of analysis. And obviously, not everybody is going to come to the same conclusions, for a variety of reasons. The thing is, with a casual viewer, who is probably more passive in his analysis, you get an entirely different viewer/show dynamic than with a more involved viewer, who is more active and wants to analyze in more depth.

Which is all very obvious, I guess. My point is, a viewer who doesn't particularly care if he misses an episode or two, isn't going to particularly care about the nuances of the overall storyline. They're in it for the villain of the week, the jokes and the entertainment on an episodic basis - they're just not interested in the deeper analysis of who goes home with whom at the end of the day. It helps, to understand the jokes and the character interaction on the show, but ultimately, they're not in it for the characters, they're in it for the entertainment.

Now an involved viewer, they're in there to immerse themselves in the world. They analyze the show not just from a completely different point of view, but also with a completely different motivation. They want to have an idea how the characters relate to each other, and if the canon doesn't give them a firm idea, they'll go ahead and analyze eye movements and subtext and (I say this with due caution as a veteran of a few HP ship skirmishes) character background and mythology.

And obviously, everybody has a gut reaction on watching the show, and in analyzing from their perspective, they'll find evidence to support that gut reaction - no matter how deep they have to delve.

In my opinion? Random dude who's a casual viewer from some Dr.Who message board: Completely right.

Involved fan who's written thousands of words on the one tru wuw shared by Jack and Ianto: ALSO right.

Because the canon hasn't told us anything. It's left the interpretation up to us. And this? This is what I love and adore about the TW fandom. You can take this canon anywhere. Seriously, it's fanworks heaven.

And knowing, as we do, that the show doesn't have a bible means that even if the show ends up giving us Jack/Ianto 51st century mpreg babies and a white picket fence, nobody will be able to say that they were right all along.

The beauty of a show like Torchwood is that WE are where the magic happens. That doesn't necessarily make for the best show, or the most compelling storylines or easy access for emotional involvement with the characters. But it does mean that in this debate, nobody can be right because there simply isn't a right.

But seriously, we're in fandom. Who cares about authorial intent?

[descrime.livejournal.com]

Oh, I think authorial intent is very important. Because I'd like to know if I agree or disagree with it. You should know what the writer is trying to say to you, even if they're trying to say "this is ambiguous with no right answer and you'll take away your own meaning depending on your own baggage". Otherwise, it's simply poor writing. And I think Torchwood falls into the latter category on some episodes, which is unacceptable for a show that is as big a cash cow for the BBC as Torchwood is.

You're right that any interpretation on Jack/Ianto is going to have a level of correctness just because so much is unsaid, but I think tencrush is pointing out and certainly what I was talking about is that we think there shouldn't be this level of ambiguity.
Rhys/Gwen is explicit. Tosh->Owen is explicit. Why is the only gay pairing ambiguous when straight pairings get to be completely hashed out? That is my main problem. We know more about how Owen and the pilot lady felt about each other than we know about how Jack views Ianto and their relationship. And that's a problem for me because of what it tells me about TPTB's priorities and how they view the relationship.

[sirenprincess]

I will agree with you that the writing lacks consistency and that they definitely need a bible. I have no idea what the overarching idea was supposed to be.

However, I feel that Jack and Ianto definitely have a relationship of love based on two scenes. The first is from "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang" where Jack tells Ianto that he was thinking about a date with him while he was on the Valiant. I take Jack at his word and don't feel that he was just trying to seduce him. I think he was seriously considering their relationship while he had a lot of time to think and decided that he wanted more romance and love. The second scene is from "To the Last Man." Jack straight out tells Ianto that he wouldn't go back to his time because "he's loved people that he would never loved" if he had stayed. That's a straight-out "I love you" in my book, which means more than sex.

So, it's not all relationship all of the time. It's complex. Part of it may be the lack of a clear direction, but perhaps the complexity makes it more interesting to watch. In the end, though, there is no doubt in my mind that Jack and Ianto are in a relationship.

I've watched the show with people that don't WANT it to be more than sex, which is just plain weird to me. Somehow random sex with anyone is okay, but a committed gay relationship isn't???? I completely can't agree with that. At least some of the writers want the pair to be in a relationship, and I want them to be, so they are in my book.

Thanks for the stimulating discussion.

[sefkhet.livejournal.com]

I take Jack at his word

I love you.

It's that line, that ONE line in KKBB that lets me completely dismiss any possible chance that Jack considers Ianto as second best. Because he gives ambiguous answers and he ducks questions and he has more secrets than Fort Knox, but Jack Harkness does not say things that aren't true.