Gay kissing, Torchwood and Hollywood...

[tencrush]

This article has been linked to extensively on my flist: Why Can't A Kiss Just Be A Kiss?, which I am now linking to as well, because it's an interesting read and all about the American media's EWWGROSS!! approach to onscreen male/male kissing. The Letterman interview with James Franco mentioned in the article is here, watch it:

Wow. Just... wow. When did Letterman turn into Leno with the crowd-pleasing homophobia, by the way? I've been out of the Yank loop for so long. That uncomfortable, embarrased attitude, dudes, it's like Leno and Ryan Phillipe all over again. (If you don't know what I'm talking about just google the phrase "gayest look" and work it out from there.) Just for once, I wish people like Franco wouldn't stoop to tittering along with this homophobic bullshit. He's a young, good-looking actor, who obviously doesn't have a problem with onscreen ghey, and he's in a prime position to call someone like Letterman out on it and tell him it's a stupid fucking question. Someone on alba17's journal (which is where I've snagged most of these links from) asked the question why nobody's asked Sean Penn what it's like to kiss a guy. I have to say, I firmly believe it's because Penn would, in fact, probably say "That's a stupid fucking question and you're a pathetic little man for asking it. I'm an actor" (Yeah, I have a bit of a soft spot for Penn. Don't judge me.) Because it's true. Nobody's ever asked Toby Maguire what it was like kissing Kirsten Dunst when she has a face like a slapped arse, yet asking a bloke what it's like to kiss Sean Penn, and implying that it must be really goddamn awful is a perfectly acceptable thing to say. It's fucked up.

Anyway, the interesting counterpoint is of course provided by Teh Barrowman:

And that Welsh beefcake GDL here (I'm referencing this article because I NEVER KNEW IT HAD A PAGE 2. Yeah, I'm a dumbass. Thanks to andreth47 for the link.):
"It's not as much of an issue [in the U.K.] at all. I don't get it, I don't understand why it's controversial, I don't understand why it's anyone's business or why it becomes anyone's problem where you stick your dick. Because it's not an issue for me, I don't really see us as pioneers. If we are viewed as pioneers, I just feel sorry for the people that are just coming 'round, because the wankers should have grown up much longer ago.

There's nothing wrong with [two men kissing] and the fact that people are interested in [Jack and Ianto's] relationship – I'd like that to be because of the chemistry. That's the reason I want it to be popular, not because, oh my God, it's a SciFi show with a gay relationship. I know people are going to be like that, but because it's not an issue for me, I sort of haven't got time for people it is an issue for."

Bless you, my son. (I'll just be really quick about saying that GDL might be veering a bit far to the other side of the debate in his vehemence about it "not being an issue", a slight appreciation of the fact that it is an issue for some people, especially across the pond, and therefore, in some circles, an important thing he's involved in here might not be misplaced. Honeypie. Just sayin'.)

And that, my friends, is why LB and GDL will never make it in Hollywood. The acceptable Tinseltown answer to the question of what it's like to kiss a guy is "It made me do a sick in my mouth a little." TRY TO REMEMBER THAT.

Just to prove not all of those crazy yanks are crazy, and to reassure everyone that today's generation of American kids will grow up JUST FINE. Here's Neil Patrick Harris on Sesame Street. As the Shoe Fairy. That's SHOE. FAIRY. Oh, yes. Watch as he imprints on the fragile minds of today's kiddies. GO NPH!

Comments

[louisema.livejournal.com]

LOVE the Shoe Fairy! WOW!

And I was so with Barrowman in that interview until he went "some women have more of a beard than some men I've kissed". *Ianto-esque eye-roll*

We'll probably have finally got somewhere when people stop making such a fuss about whether it's gay/straight. *sighs*

[tencrush]

Yeah, JB just can't help putting his foot in it every single time. And just when it was going so well, too.

[louisema.livejournal.com]

There is only one possible response to 90% of what he says/does: *headdesk*

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

I always knew I hated Letterman, and now I know why.

"I didn't want to screw it up," Franco told Letterman on "Late Show" last week.

"See, if it's me, I'm kind of hoping I do screw it up," Letterman shot back. "That's what you want, isn't it?"

"To screw it up?" Franco asked.

"I mean, do you really want to be good at kissing a guy?" Letterman said as his audience howled with delight.

Correct answer: "I found it considerably less repellent than sitting here talking to you right now, you vile, smug cuntfaced motherfucker."

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

He always goes for the cheap gag, and only established stars will call him on it (like Sean Penn, as tencrush noted) because newbies are afraid of pissing off David Letterman and becoming a target.

Actors want to be good at acting? That's... shocking. Never knew this.

[oneloveonelight.livejournal.com]

I love the discussions you have, by the way. I've never been homophobic ever, even as a kid (well, it does help that I'm bi) so I don't understand homophobia at all. I can't relate to it, period. But I do know homophobia exists more so in America than in Europe. When I was about 12, my mother saw two women kissing passionately and she gagged. Literally gagged. I thought nothing strange of the kiss at all until my mom did that, followed up with, "Doesn't that make you want to vomit? Doesn't it?!" And I just replied in shock, "Um. No." (Just so you know, my mother and I are complete opposites of each other, we've been fighting each other tooth and nail since I was born).

My friends here in America had issues with Torchwood at first. Not that they were homophobic but they were surprised because American television treats gay relationships with kid gloves whereas Torchwood treats it as a complete non-issue. The fact that there's no homophobia on the show and that everyone seems to be bi is still bizarre to some people here on LJ, I know. But I LIKE that! For once, sexuality is a non-issue. I hope someday it does get to that point where no one will question who's dating/fucking whom. That'd be nice.

Back to the gay kiss. It all has to do with residual American homophobia. Even some people who claim that they're not homophobic still have issues in the back of their mind. Americans question sexuality at every turn. An acquaintance once said to me, "So is GDL is gay now? I just say that because he didn't seem to mind kissing John. And James kissed John too! I don't know if I'd like that if my boyfriend kissed a guy. Not because of jealousy but because it's just... I don't know."

My consensus is a lot like GDL's... get over it!

Also, I've posted the shoe fairy video on my elljay before. Loves it!!!

[oneloveonelight.livejournal.com]

Just an aside, James Franco kind of weirds me out because he looks like my ex. A lot. The teeth, the smile, the mannerisms...

[alba17.livejournal.com]

Yeah, all that. Agree that GDL maybe goes a little too far in the other direction. LOVE the shoe fairy!!! I might have to post that on my blog. Thanks for crediting, BTW. I bet you're right about why no one asks Sean Penn the "isn't it gross?" question. Plus, he's the Big Serious Actor. It would be great if someone started calling Letterman and similar people on this stuff and didn't just keep going along with it.

Of course JB goes too far in that interview, right?- doesn't he always?

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

o NPH! his wings match his suit

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

I think all things considered (especially since he seems to be about 12) Franco did okay. The kissing thing shut Letterman up at least. But God... I actually can't get over what an arse he was, and he just wouldn't shut up about it. I'm actually shocked that's considered an acceptable broadcast. I don't think a talk show host could get away with that this side of the pond.

[tencrush]

I don't think so, either. Both this and Leno's "give me your gayest look" would be sackable offences, I reckon.

[kurthummel.livejournal.com]

Well, there goes my longstanding respect of David Letterman, the old crotchety motherfucker. He should have retired last year. I hope you don't think that reflects everyone. I'm sure there were people in the audience that were flat out glaring. I know I would have been.

ETA: Okay, one thing I want to add. The American mentality of gay people is kinda a delicate subject. I, personally, would date a man who's bi. It wouldn't bother me. In fact, often times me and my friends joke about finding a guy like Jason Mraz (because he's generally awesome), but my best friend in the whole world flat out says she wouldn't date him because he's bisexual. My response? SO WHAT. If he's not thinking about nailing a guy, who gives a shit? This, to me, is the height of the problem with many Americans. They claim to not be homophobic, yet they say shit like this. Who gives a shit? It's not like bisexuals (which, by the way, I consider myself at this point) are constantly thinking about sex, SEX, SEX. We just can't make up our minds.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

If we are viewed as pioneers, I just feel sorry for the people that are just coming 'round, because the wankers should have grown up much longer ago.

Quoted for truth.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I'd love to see a clueless host ask a bi actor that kiss question.

But what's really kind of stupid is... it's in the script. I've kissed someone (because it was in the script) of the opposite gender to whom I was not attracted, but "make it look good" is what you're there to do. Kissing someone when you're acting is part of the job, just like fighting with another character.

So if Jessica Lange kisses King Kong and it looks convincing, what does that mean, she has a Furry fetish? Hello. It's acting.

[oneloveonelight.livejournal.com]

I agree, regarding the American mentality of homosexuality. I'm bi too. (Actually, I kind of cringe a little when I say, "I'm bi" when I just am simply attracted to whomever I'm attracted to... I've crushed on/dated both sexes but I feel like people are going to pat me on the head like I'm an experimental Girls Gone Wild sorority girl if I say "I'm bi".) Which is why I adore TW so much and the Capt. Jack character. Omnisexuality is awesome. I may start using that term.

But I digress. Yes, just because someone is bi - or whatever term they want to use - doesn't mean we're going to go around fucking the entire planet. There are still rules in a relationship. If your relationship rules call for monogamy, they call for monogamy. You know? Why would being bi make someone more likely to stray?

A lot of people who say they're not homophobic USED to be and they still have residual homophobia left in their brains. Hopefully all of that will wash away after a few more generations here in the states. Religion is a big problem, though.

[tencrush]

That's one of the reasons I like Ianto so much, he defines himself as bi, but according to canon has had one female and one male lover in his life. Not using "bi" as a code word for "sleeps around" is pretty refreshing on TV. (Whereas Jack's bi/omnisexuality is pretty stereotypically a euphemism for "will fuck anything")

[oneloveonelight.livejournal.com]

Very true. Some people (Capt. Jack), regardless of their sexual orientation are hornballs, period. Bi should never mean "easy".

By the way, I didn't mean to leave Ianto out of my comment, I just pointed Captain Jack out since he's usually the character associated with the omnisexuality term!

I actually adore both Jack and Ianto but for completely different reasons. I liked Jack from day one because I love raunchiness. But Ianto grew on me after a while (there's a joke there, I know it). But now I sometimes wonder if I like Ianto better. That notion started when I was watching Janto fanvids and caught myself looking at Ianto more than Jack. Hmmm...

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

Nice writeup.

There was an article I read with Matthew Rhys not that long ago where his attitude was essentially the same as GDLs. It's definitely more of a British sensibility than an American one to wonder why everyone is making such a fuss. Which is just plain sad for those of us on the wrong side of the pond for this one.

I do still laugh at the fact that Matthew Rhys' reaction with having to do shirtless scenes with Jason Lewis was to run to the gym and then decide that it was more British to be soft and pasty and let the audience feel better about themselves.

[coloronthewalls.livejournal.com]

I am braving coming out of lurking to comment on this, because I want to point something out.

I think this part of a quote in the WP article you posted: "These answers do often sort of seem to play to the assumed homo-discomfort of the audience..." is important. Letterman clearly counted on his audience to laugh along with his comments. Contrast that video to this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWlxwO36Ztc&feature=related), where the audience is fully behind Jon Stewart and he is aware of that. I think the audience will usually back up the host, but I am willing to bet that if someone (and Sean Penn would be a perfect person for it) replied to Letterman's questions as if they were stupid and made great, positive comments about homosexuality he would get a big cheer from the crowd and effectually shut Letterman up. One of the problems is hosts underestimating their audiences and assuming they are full of uneducated, immature, homophobic people rather than reasonable, intelligent, open-minded people. (And then of course whether or not the audience plays along with the former.)

[teaboyfan.livejournal.com]

Listening to that Letterman interview and the audience reaction just made me want to shake them until their teeth rattle and say "Grow the hell UP!" Infuriating. Thanks to GDL for expressing his position so clearly; if JB just knew when to quit he'd get in a lot less trouble, but I guess he wouldn't be the man we all know and love if he did.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

Letterman's an ass. Let's not judge a country that produced Neil Patrick Harris and Sesame Street so harshly. If this interview had occurred with Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Ellen DeGeneres, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, or Craig Ferguson, the contrast with the 'lands across the pond' wouldn't seem so stark. Ellen and Brad Pitt just did a little bit where they sent a Chippendale dancer over to George Clooney's to try to entice him onto Ellen's show and no one recoiled in homophobic horror IIRC.

[coffeegirl18.livejournal.com]

Hon hope you don't mind but I linked this post in my LJ...I was reading it and there are some awesome points that work with what I was saying.

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

I think I owe you a drink for that wonderful bit of NPH goodness.

Boy can sing.

Boy also looks good with twee little wings, doesn't he?

[tencrush]

Of course not, link on, my friend.

[musac-luver.livejournal.com]

We get David Letterman's show in Australia and I have watched the odd episode. Does this man think he is funny? I think he is nauseating! He is petty, small minded and an opinionated bore! I agree with 51stcenturyfox in saying he always goes for the cheap gag. Roll on the day when sexual orientation is no longer an issue! There are much more important things to talk about.

[only-sound.livejournal.com]

Larry King actually did this a couple years ago with an actor from Queer as Folk. Unfortunately the actor, Robert Gant, wasn't out yet, but he answered pretty well, all told.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0204/24/lkl.00.html

"KING: What's the hardest part, Robert, for you, about playing a gay person?

GANT: You know, I think at the end of the day, acting is acting. And you know, our lives -- the whole point is that there's no real difference, that we tend to focus on how we're not the same.

And what people are noticing about the show is they're starting to see our similarities. They're starting to see how we're the same. About how people at the end of the day, love the same. They argue the same. They have sex very similarly. And so really as an actor my job is to take my life experiences and to put them into, you know, into the scene that I'm playing.

You know, there was -- when I was having a love scene with -- a romantic scene with Leah Thompson or Lisa Kudrow, kissing them, it is no different than kissing Hal in that I'm not in love with any of these people. I am looking inside of myself and finding those places where I remember being in love and bring that into the scene."

[coffeegirl18.livejournal.com]

I'm actually surprised Letterman's still going.

I've been slightly out as bisexual for a year. My close friends seem to think I'm able to date mass amounts of people now. I have to obviously say I'm monogamous and like the person not the packaging. Well the packaging is good too ;D

LOL yeah, j/k.

I live in Canada where it's better but we're sadly attacked by American culture...which is good at times, and bad at times.

[wishyouwashhere.livejournal.com]

This kind of think drives me nuts. It's a kind of pretend 'I'm down w the homos so it's ok for me to tease'...about how it's so gross. Pathetic.

I went to the Guardian Student Media awards ceremony the other day hosted by some z-list (UK) celeb and he was off on the same thing. 'OMG I said I thought Russell Brand was hot and now the tabs say I'm gay! Fate worse than death!'

I just couldn't help heckling him, and the crowd was very much on my side, yay--it was great to see this guy's homophobic humour get shot down by the whole room.

Barrowman's comment makes me want to grow a lady beard just on principal. Oh I DO SO APOLOGISE for not obeying your rules on female appearance. Pardon me while I KILL MYSELF.

[cloverdilly.livejournal.com]

This is a really, really, really late comment, but I've only read this post today, and I couldn't not comment on the NPH video. It's one of my favorites, and he's my favorite of the out actors. He coincides with my personal ideals of in a "who cares whom I'm sleeping with as long as I'm doing good work and I'm promoting being normal and monogamous?"

And he said that when he got to do the Sesame Street song and dance, he originally had lines like, "I am the greatest FAIRY in the LAND!" Neil said he wasn't sure if the writers didn't realize they included such double entendre or if they just had that sense of humor. Which is really the main point of this comment before I veered heavily into land of NPH love. :(

Oh, and they never ask women about it when there's a girl-on-girl kiss. Or if they do, they turn into lecherous, creepy men who are all for it, barely giving the actor a chance to answer. Even my beloved Conan O'Brien has fallen into this awful trap. Sad.