DON'T FILM MEEE!!!

[tencrush]

If you luffff the Barrowman, maybe it's best you avert your eyes right now.

Man, this Hub convention thing is going to start hitting fandom_wank, soon, I guarantee it. A quick recap of events: Con organisers and "the talent" get together and tell the attendees that the piss-take play the actors will be putting on MAY NOT BE FILMED under any circumstances. Word is, actors will be FORBIDDEN to EVER DO CONS EVER AGAIN EVER, if video of said play is ever to get out (Yeah, that sort of thing happens a lot, right? NO MORE CONVENTIONS FOR YOU, BOY!!) Cue lots of hush-hush John-asked-me-personally posts on the communities telling people that's VRY IMPOTANT SRS BSNS that people report and tell on those who might be tempted to post videos of said play. Or the panels. No, wait, not the panels, the panels are okay. Right? Oh, no, they're not. Don't post ANY VIDEOS of said convention ANYWHERE, EVER, because PEOPLE MAY DIE AND CAREERS MAY BE RUINED if you do. If you see videos, AVERT YOUR EYES and report them to Showmasters, John Barrowman, John Barrowman's gay dog and the Secretary General of the UN. Are we all clear on this?

Between the lines, and mostly in the John-told-me-personally comments and posts, it becomes clear that, apart from the actual play business, for which it would appear there are legitimate reasons, Barrowman HIMSELF and his managers are slightly uncomfortable with the material of the play and indeed even the panels coming to light. Mention is made that John wouldn't want his nieces and nephews to see all the mankissing and pants. Awww, diddums, John. (ETA: So, obviously, AfterElton immediately devotes an entire blog post to smirnoffmule's pictures of said mankissing. And pants.)

I have a problem with Barrowman and I've said it a few times before, I think he's a man who uses his sexuality as an excuse to behave in such a way that would otherwise be classed as offensive, but because of his Big Fat Ghey, we all have to find it perfectly acceptable and are not allowed to say anything about it. In the past year of convention-going, Barrowman's asserted his frankly HUGE personality and old-skool-carry-on-risqué-sexuality all over the shop, rubbing it off on the likes of Kai and Naoko and Gareth, and frankly, along the way, turning wee Gareth, especially, from the convention wallflower he was a year or so ago, into a MONSTER of lewd behaviour and blatant sexuality (Oh, God, and that's ALL GOOD, don't get me wrong.) And yes, I credit (and blame) Barrowman for this, and for the way TW convos seem to be slipping and slipping further down into strictly NC17 places to be. And now? Suddenly WE are responsible for protecting his reputation as housewives' and kiddies' favourite. Piss off. You make your big gay bed and you lie in it, John, seriously.

I don't mean to offend what I know are a lot of Barrowmanfans out there, but this latest spate of "No, no, John doesn't want anyone to see it!" posting has got RIGHT ON MY TITS.

Sorry. :(

ETA: Let me clarify, before it gets confusing. I don't have a problem with JB's behaviour, I think it's hilarious. I have a problem with "Oh, that's just John's Big Gay Personality" being used as an excuse for said behaviour (and I think he himself has, on occasion, been guilty of that). "Gay" is not a word that means "allowed to wave his penis in your face". Likewise, I don't have a problem with Gareth's behaviour, which by all accounts is disgusting in the extreme. Great, I hope he gets his cock out soon and we can all sleep easy at night. What I have a problem with is the onus being thrown upon FANS to protect the public and the reputations of the artists from the consequences of said behaviour. If YOU, the artist, artist's manager, copyright owner of the show, think an artist's behaviour is unacceptable or will bring down the reputation of the artist or show in question, the onus is on YOU, the artist, manager or copyright owner to stop that behaviour from happening in the first place. END OF STORY.

Comments

[qthewetsprocket.livejournal.com]

oddly enough, the whole super-sekrit play thing didn't really bother me so much...probably because owen and tosh weren't in it.

great big HELLYEAH to what you say about barrowman using his sexuality to get away with offensive behavior, though. the reports of his constant teabagging and tit/ass-grabbing of his castmates remind me of aggressive dogs in obedience school: the alpha males will often mount the other dogs (both females and other males) to assert their dominance through sexual bullying.

i'm not remotely suggesting they get barrowman fixed, mind; just that that's exactly what i think of whenever i see him, say, grabbing burn gorman and roughing him about, and hanging onto him far past the point where it gets slightly uncomfortable.

[tencrush]

Thank you. I know I'll probably get flamed for this post, but I don't care. His reported behaviour offends me, and BEING GAY does not magically make that sort of behaviour acceptable, or indeed unthreatening. It gets up my nose.

[jamesie-boy.livejournal.com]

oh wow, some barrowman fans might get a bit iffy about this one lol. but i have to agree with you. i mean, i'm all for public displays of affection and all the fun and games that co-stars can get up to, but some of the stuff that happens when jb's around... it's a bit too far.

so yeah, amen on all points. ;P

[qthelights.livejournal.com]

Interesting... First off I'll say that yes, I'm a Barrowman fan, love him to bits. I can see some of your points though, especially regarding not filming cons - that annoys me - if people don't want their behavior filmed, don't do said behavior. That said, I've seen soooo many accounts of what was *actually* said at the con at diff times by diff people/signs by so many LJers that I've come to the conclusion there was either a) no party line regarding each thing (panel/play/etc) given at every time, by every actor/moderator. I don't doubt that people believe their account is what was true (eg only the play can't be filmed vs everything can't be filmed) but really, it cannot be proven as there are too many variables so I choose to accept the ambiguity and ignore it all. I'm all for cons being filmed because there are so many people who legitimately cannot attend them, and they are after all, put on FOR fans.

As to your other points, I'm not sure. I've never really felt that JB uses the gay as an excuse to be risque. I think he is lewd and sexually-oriented, and his being gay simply comes into part of that. Personally, I LOVE that. I love his being open and brash about sexuality and, let's face it, Life. I'd have MUCH more of a problem if he was going around being violent or nasty. To me the sexual openness is liberating. As to the other actors, the impression i've always gotten is that he is very sympathetic to their feelings regarding the matter. Especially as evidenced by the professional conduct he displays when actors are actually doing sexual scenes with him - goes out of his way to make them comfortable. Sure, there are going to be some people who don't like just how full on he is in real life, people are people, but it has always felt to me that he respects those that aren't like that (though i'll grant you, that only works if he's aware/made aware of their discomfort).

Oh, one more thing on the protecting his reputation - all the quotes i've seen have him saying that fanfic and what have you is fine, but it should be in places that are appropriate. fic is fine, false rumors that his nieces/nephews can see are not. I personally haven't seen anything that said he didn't want his neph/nieces seeing him kissing other people in photos, so i can't comment on it fairly, but if it is true, then yes it is his responsibility, not his fans. I suspect though again, that he is more worried about the context and/or where the material is being made available than the act itself. That said, I hope he never changes and continues his wicked ways because I love them!!!

In any case, i'm not offended by your post, agree with some of it and comment on what my thoughts have been on others in the spirit of discussion ;)

[littlepunkryo.livejournal.com]

The whole thing about "no recording" just made me roll my eyes. If you don't want people seeing it, don't do it at a public place where there are tons of people. Duh.

I, personally, don't honestly care either way, because even when videos do come out of conventions, I rarely watch them. I just can't be bothered, unless I know it's really good. But the attitude of people who did attend is so utterly condescending to me - "we were there, and YOU WEREN'T, so you don't know what they said!!11!" Like being able to be there makes your opinion any more valid than someone else's? Please.

That's what I've had a problem with - I know some people were confused about what was going on, and were asking about it, and there was just this rush of utter condensation about the posts asking about video, making sure that they mentioned "and I hope everyone follows these rules so we can have more conventions and not ruin it for anyone else", when the poor people just had no idea what was going on. There was also someone who went and mentioned that "filming is prohibited at EVERY CONVENTION ALL OVER THE WORLD!" and I was like..."What? There are like a million videos from every Supernatural convention EVER. What?"

Wow, I guess that bothered me more than I thought!

[tencrush]

It is, in fact, probably what's making me pounce on Barrowman at the moment, the fact that all these posts were all "John told me..." and "John asked us..." which is making it come across like John is all over everyone trying to stop them filming and showing his shizzle to the world, when in fact it's all about a bunch of convention attendees going "I TALKED TO JOHN!!11!!1! I'm HIS BESTEST FRIEND!" Way to make him look like a dick, but at least I know you talked to the guy, right? Can I kiss your fayce?

[littlepunkryo.livejournal.com]

That's probably it. I know a lot of them I read were very "He asked us specially", and it was probably just, "Hey guys, we could get in trouble for this, so don't film it, okay?" I have no problem with that at all - but when you make it into this huge, secret thing, and then flaunt it in front of people who are like stuck in Australia, and use JB as excuse to do it? That's not right.

[littlepunkryo.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, as for how he acts - I could never do half the things he does in front of people. I'm a quiet person, so I never could. I also suffer from like, sympathy embarrassment or something. So when someone does something totally outrageous, I kind of hide behind my hands. JB is one of those people who is so totally out there and confident that for me, I spend a lot of time hiding behind my hands going, "I could NEVER do that!" It's part of what I love about him.

But yeah, if he wasn't gay? Some of the stuff he does would be incredibly offensive. I don't think there's any real malice in it, which is why it doesn't bother me a whole lot. I'm not entirely sure how I would feel if he was doing some of those things to me, though! (See my embarrassment issues above)

[qthelights.livejournal.com]

totally intruding into your comment here to say I know exactly what you mean about the embarrassment thing! I can't even watch Mr Bean... no seriously - It's ridiculous but I just can't do it *L*. Some of the things John does I cringe, but like you I take that as my problem, not his *g*

[littlepunkryo.livejournal.com]

It's horrible isn't it? Everyone laughs and I'm just like, "Ohh my god, how can he DO that???" LOL.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

I think it more or less depends on the company you're in - my posse has been known to be as crude and offensive, and I think working so close together with a bunch of people gives you a pretty good idea what you might do and what not. As someone said before, he seems to be able to behave when someone's uncomfortable with it. That said, I wonder what his husband thinks about kissing other men...

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

I'm also uncomfortable with all that stuff, and I think people are right to be concerned about it. But we have no evidence that JB is bullying or harassing his co-stars. (In fact, we have a bit of evidence the other way, in James Marsters' description of how Barrowman recognised that he was uncomfortable and toned things down.)

Nor do we know how much of a "bad influence" JB has been on the other actors. Did Gareth show his pants to the convention audience because of John, or because of the fangirls? Then how about Kai, who isn't part of the closeknit group of regulars?

I often squirm at some of the tacky, icky shenanigans we hear about. But it's a big step from that to calling it sexual bullying. We have no genuine picture of what goes on on the Torchwood set - just anecdotes and glimpses and nth-hand reports. The teabagging thing grossed me out completely until I saw some bts footage from Last of the Time Lords in which he sneaks up on a crewmember with a used teabag, ready to be flicked!

ETA: Marsters speaketh: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=667TWMdrAjw

[santousha.livejournal.com]

Great points all of them. I too think that John overdoes it most times, but he is also very entertaining.
He is the kind of person I can enjoy from afar but if I knew him personally I would probably hate him. Too loud, too touchy, too in your face, I'm way to shy and reserved for all that.

And also I wasn't there let me state that up front, but from the reports I have read and the pictures I have seen it seemed to me that John was tamer than I expected him to be. And he was definitely outdone by the other guests. Especially Gareth, Kai and Lachlan.
He had the most serious answers while the others saw every opportunity to make a lewd joke.

Just my opinion mind you.

[used_songs]

What you just said here is the main reason why, although I sometimes briefly wish that I were able to go to cons, I don't really have any desire to go. The whole hyper-sexually charged atmosphere puts me off and I know I wouldn't be comfortable there. If that's how the cons are, then that's how they are and folks (and cast members) who enjoy them are happy and that's cool. I just know I wouldn't be happy.

I wonder if Barrowman's performances at cons are a way of distancing his real self (whoever that may be) from the hordes of people who surround him and want something from him, even if it's just his attention.

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

I think all that'll happen if you filmed a panel is showmasters will be a bit pissed off, since the rule was theirs. Whether it did or did not stem from an agreement with the actors, I don't pretend to know, but the only thing that John Barrowman specifically asked us not to film was the skit. Of course I was not actually privy to any personal conversations with him, but that's all he said while he was on stage. ;) He did talk about how much it pisses him off when people make fake facebook/bebo pages using his name, and how it misleads his actual friends and family - which is obviously a whole other kettle of fish. He was also apparantly disturbed by a bit of RPF which his niece found involving a lazy Susan - but obviously that's a different kettle of fish again. As such I'm not sure how much of this "protect John's kiddies" thing is coming from JB himself and how much is fans being a little over-zealous in their wish to comply with his requests.

As to whether his behaviour is acceptable or not, I couldn't possibly comment, since to my mind, it's acceptable as long as all parties are comfortable with it and I have no idea about how John is recieved by his friends and family in his private life nor would I pretend to. I admit his humour may not be to everyone's tastes but then humour is always a subjective thing. The idea of acceptable vs not doesn't seem to me to be something it's a fan's place to speculate on when they're looking in from the outside on a group of friends. All I can say is that none of his fellow cast members at the hub seemed to be uncomfortable, and they all gave back as good as they got. John was far from the worst person there in terms of potential offensiveness- Gareth absolutely took the crown in that regard. At least JB relies on the innuendo - Gareth's far far cruder (though to be fair, it was Kai Owen who started all the pants dropping - Gareth was only following suit). I also got the impression - though again this is just speculation - that GDL may have genuinely been making Sara Lloyd Gregory uncomfortable during one panel. He did actually see fit to apologise to her at the end, so possibly he felt he was a little close to the bone too. To me, acceptability is down to consent rather than actual content, and the point at which someone is actually upset and embarassed, that's where the line is crossed for me. That made me far more uncomfortable than any willy gag John could have done.

[wiley-nilly.livejournal.com]

I agree. I know, weird coming someone who's been writing pornish slash for over 10 years. But the no passing out copies of the 'play' 'skit' 'whatever' when obviously people were allowed to opening vid it is like putting the genii back in the bottle - teh hard.

In the US at Creation Cons (yes, I've been to many) you will be removed from the con for taping anything like panels or the talent talenting. Even at the larger fan run cons - no filming of panels, etc. Just sayin'.

So, if they didn't want it filmed and spread to the world and beyond, they probably should have taken care of it at the venue - policed it, if you will.

Seeing as they didn't, too bad for them - the internets are vast and a little uncontrolable, much like fangirls.


Now. John Barrowman crossing the line of taste and decorum. He is who he is and always has been. Now there just seems to be a tacit agreement that he may conduct himself lewd and laciviously without censure. Which is fine 'after the watershed', but if I ever wanted to take my 14 year old niece to see him, it would have to be at a panto. While she definitely knows so much about what makes the world go round than I did at her age, I don't think she needs to be smacked in the face with it...

Just my opinion. (And it agrees with yours)

Posted by Nobleroman1

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, the *Johnettes* are going to get you! LOL!

But I have to agree. He's a grown assed man; don't display the behavior in a public setting if you don't want to deal with the consequences.

[oneloveonelight.livejournal.com]

Yes, I too am a fan of Barrowman. I don't think he uses his "Big Fat Ghey" as an excuse for his risqueness. And I most certainly do NOT think it's sexual bullying at all. I mean, I'm like that too around my friends (which is why I love him so much because I'm like, "Hey, here's someone who acts like me!" Granted I'm not as charming or outgoing as he but that's neither here nor there.) But I actually really find the "hyper-sexualized" atmosphere that they have with each other quite refreshing. I'm insanely jealous of their camaraderie. The friends I used be like that with don't live in my area anymore.

I'm digressing. Anyway, I had a bad feeling that there was going to be an uproar about this. And I don't really think it's Barrowman, it's most likely pressure from the suits and he's feeling the pressure. Plus, yes, it's not something you want your family to see (and no, I don't mean the gay content... sucking face IS sexual whether it's straight or gay snogging). I've done things at parties that were rather risque, for example. I'm not ashamed at all. But I most certainly would not want photos to get out to my family of me being all... pervy. Who does?

They DID say no filming. That's all. And I don't know if people didn't comply but I haven't seen any video of it myself, just the photos. I think they're just trying to get around some legal crap with the BBC.

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

They did police it. The stewards were all over people who were suspected of filming all through the event, and re-iterated time and time again that it wasn't allowed. For the skit, they asked us all to lower our cameras period because they can't tell who's filming if everyone's waving a camera around.

As for your fourteen year old niece, I think your attitude is sensible. A friend of mine overheard someone on the phone bitching about how "gross" everything was when she had her daughter with her. C'mon, Torchwood is an adult show, the cast all have reputations for being risque, and you bring a child to an event like this at your own responsbility.

[off_coloratura]

The whole "for god's sake don't film this, because it'll piss the BBC off" is bullshit. "Don't film this because this is a convention and you don't have the rights to distribute video of this event" is just fine.

But as an actor at a convention dedicated to your show you are a SPOKESMAN FOR THE SHOW whether you like it or not. What you do represents and reflects on the show. Personally, I think all the fan-pandering sexual shenanigans are perfectly acceptable for naughty Torchwood, but if they thought the sketch shouldn't get out, they should NOT HAVE PERFORMED IT IN PUBLIC. Seriously, this is Being A Public Figure Rule #1. It's not fun, but that's the way things go.

[oneloveonelight.livejournal.com]

I wholeheartedly agree. Torchwood is not for the kiddies. You can't expect (nor would I want!) PG behavior out of these guys. I would know better than to bring my kids along to an event like that (I have two).

They simply do not want the video getting out. And the audience was told (from what I've heard) NOT to videotape it. If anyone did, they need to keep the video private and not post it online (however much I really want to see it).

I think it'll be fine, they are just putting out another warning due to the paranoia of old guys in suits, probably. I suspect it has to do with copyrights and unofficial material and such.

[aethel-reda.livejournal.com]

I do like John, but I see where opinions like these come from.

And this is the video where John makes request for no videoing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g0nxNQrdJw).

Personally...I'm on the fence on this one.

[aethel-reda.livejournal.com]

On second thought, maybe they should have not allowed cameras at all. A sign at the door: NO CAMERAS ALLOWED PAST THIS POINT

And, on the schedule, something clearly noting no cameras/videotaping allowed for that skit.

[mbs-library.livejournal.com]

I think I can sum my response to this down to a single word: agreed.

Everything I know about the convention is second and third hand reports found online, and the pictures of JB laying one hell of a kiss on GDL, so I don't know exactly what was said or went on there. Still, I agree that if JB has a problem with the way things are reported on the internet or other sources, he shouldn't be doing it. That said, I think JB's concern is all the RPS of him and GDL that is turning up... probably causing all kinds of questions being thrown at him by his nieces & nephews that he likely doesn't really want to deal with so he's hoping the fans will put it 'away' in some hidden corner of the internets. When I showed this post and comments to my husband, his response was - "Why's he asking the fans to hid things when it's the parents responsibility to see that the kiddies don't find the stuff?".

I dunno. All I can say is that the reports coming out of the HUB remind me of the annual reports that come out of the Romantic Times convention and all the over-sexed, lewd conduct that normally restrained romance writers get up to around a certain set of their fans... and then immediately afterwards start running about getting their fangirls to police things trying to hide what happened. I just sorta shrug it off and go on. As long as it doesn't effect the end product, I don't really care what they do or why they do it.

And boy did I just ramble all over while attempting to clarify my agreeing.

MB

[tencrush]

all the RPS of him and GDL that is turning up...
Phew. Yet again, I am insanely happy that I'm apparently successfully avoiding the places where this happens.