I was just fucking witcha...

[tencrush]

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

Comments

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I think it just comes down to whether or not people like a degree of ambiguty when it comes to relationships in drama. Some people do, some people don't and they find it frustrating - frustrating to an unhealthy degree I agree. Ianto clearly has a strong attachment to Jack and Rhys clearly has strong feelings for Gwen but Jack's feelings for both Ianto and Gwen are less clear.

And people like Richard Stokes and Chris Chibnall really don't help matters when they say things like "Jack and Gwen are a love story with 17 complications" and that the relationship between Jack and Gwen is like the relationship between the Doctor and Rose. They rarely talk about the relationship between Jack and Ianto, except in passing, even during the De-Classifieds for both Adam and From Out of the Rain.

Now that S2 has come to an end, I agree that it's time to move on and look forward to S3, especially as I think their relationship will be resolved one way or the other during the next series. :)

[(Anonymous)]

I agree about fandom being biased, but I don't know anyone who is a "fan" in that sense. Just people who watch and enjoy. I have heard similar opinions from work colleagues, not just friends. I do know a couple of people who quite like Gwen, one is a friends boyfriend and another is a work colleague, but even then they don't actually like her the most or relate to her the most, they just like the whole team.

Like I said, and have also put in my comment later in the thread, most people just don't overthink, and really genuinely don't watch for the relationships. Whereas I of course, do both!!

[descrime.livejournal.com]

I think TPTB want a long-term loving gay relationship without actually having to bother portraying a long-term loving gay relationship. (Like how JK Rowling wanted a gay Dumbledore without actually having to bother writing it in her books. Okay, not that bad.) Basically, I think the lack of the show bible is really killing them here, because they can't do anything complex or long term without one and that's what Jack/Ianto would have to be, because there's no satisfying stereotypes to fall back on for them.

Do I think TPTB will read this? No. Do I think they'd change their entire program structure because of this even if they did? No. But when I watch Torchwood, I sense a problem (several problems). Talking/debating it like this helps me clarify my thoughts which I find very fun. Sometimes I use harsh language because I was in debate for 4 years, but I've long learned to separate the argument from the speaker, so there's no frustration for me.

[tencrush]

Well, I'll change the wording of that link, then because that's not what I mean. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[descrime.livejournal.com]

Never fear, I don't think they could get away with actual porn on BBC1. ^^

[(Anonymous)]

Oh you are promoting it to BBC1??

Sorry I didn't mean too much porn! That would be OK.. I just meant not too much relationship stuff, keep it in the background and therefore much safer!!

[tencrush]

Sorry, I don't really see the difference, but English isn't my first language so I'll take your word for it.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Didn't someone post figures somewhere from an internal Nielson poll ranking viewers' character preferences? I seem to recall that Gwen came in dead last among the regulars.

And I have no idea why RTD thought being "normal" would be a selling point for a TV character. Well, okay, an "everyperson" being caught up in extraordinary events/situations is a well-established trope in story-telling, but they are interesting because of how they step up and take on the extraordinary circumstances, proving themselves to be actually "above normal" in the process. And they did do that with Gwen to a certain extent, like for instance her fighting off the retcon in Everything Changes. But then they keep on harping on her normal-ness long after it's outlived its usefulness, to the point it becomes a turn-off, actually. Yes, okay, she's normal. What else can she do? And that's where the writing and the acting both fail, I think. The writing doesn't give Gwen an identifiable character trait or skill other than being normal, and Eve Myles isn't GDL, who apparently pulled Ianto out of thin air.

[descrime.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. I always like to hear about how fandom outsiders view the show. ^^

I know most people don't think about a show after it's aired, but I still think as a multi-million pound work of literature, it still should hold up to basic logical scrutiny. Quite frankly, I think we've begun to expect too little from television when it really is an amazing opportunity to tell a very in depth story as you have so much more time than a movie.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Oh, it isn't? I'd never have guessed it!

[(Anonymous)]

Yes GDL is extraordinary, standing out in such an underwritten role in series one, I'm convinced that has been the making of the show, the way the writers went with it, especially the comedy potential.

I find it infuriating how RTD and the producers keep trying to sell an idea in their behind the scenes show, even if flogging a dead horse. Martha clearly didn't work, but they go on and on about her as if it were all planned, yet clearly she has been shoehorned in, really badly so on this weeks DW, where they even admitted there not being a role for her within the plot..

They do the same with Gwen, go on and on as if the viewers will eventually believe them. I find it pompous and annoying.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

I think TPTB want a long-term loving gay relationship without actually having to bother portraying a long-term loving gay relationship.

Good point!

As for the lack of show bible, I'm thinking maybe that's a symptom, rather than the cause? As in, if TPTB had an overall direction in which they wanted to take the show, including any relationship stuff, then they'd damn well make sure they have a bible. But apparently they are fine with taking the show where it develops "organically," or however it was they put it.

And yes, keep the argument separate from the speaker, very good advice, thanks!

YES THAT.

[x-pixel-x.livejournal.com]

And I think you've stumbled upon why I have little to no respect for Gwen at all. She doesn't DO anything, she doesn't seem to have much competence in any particular area, she just seems to float around stirring up trouble. I have no good reason to have any respect for her. Now I know that what I look for is not what everyone else looks for, so I'm not bashing really, I'm just realizing that from my own frame of reference THAT IS IT. *sits back* Wow. Talk about your lightbulb moment.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

And I kind of hope the relationship never gets "resolved" -- I kind of like it exactly the way it is now! Well, I wouldn't say no to a few "domestic" scenes like having Ianto come out of Jack's "hole" in the Hub after having spent the night there. *g* But I can live with the ambiguity if it means no big, messy, heart-wrenching breakups!

[furius.livejournal.com]

I think Jack/Ianto in TW is the writers' way of saying "we can be subtle" but to the point that "subtlety" is rather too vague in contrast with Rhys/Gwen mostly because none of them knew what was going to happen and which OTP will work out better/be more popular.

Jack/Gwen was in a similar place as Jack/Ianto except Jack/Ianto didn't quite emerge from that ambiguity until the beginning of Season 2 at which point I think there are hints of a larger background some writers wish to explore and others didn't, so the audience get unfinished hints. I would like to think Fragments is suppose to hearken back to Cyberwoman....but it still makes the stopwatch suggestion and "Captain Jack Harkness" a little bizarre.

It's a pick-and-choose canon. It's what the show's doing, so I suppose all interpretations are up for grabs, though somehow I suspect the "Jack is disturbingly emotionally abusive towards Ianto" plotline stems more out of fic kink than canonical interpretation.

Jack hasn't been the most stable character and his Unknown Past (51st century or 18th cent onwards...after his DW appearances) do give people a lot of freedom. For some, it's historic fics, for others, it's "the dark paths of his mind..." which is a legitimate interpreation, I think. Jack is mysterious but canon refuses to explore and fandom explores to various ends and successes...

[(Anonymous)]

Except that in season one it was Owen/Gwen, not really Jack/Gwen at all. Also Rhys/Gwen. I think that they set Jack/Ianto up from the first episode, but clearly it was even more behind the scenes in the first season, and they have chosen to develop both Ianto's character and the relationship. I remember on first viewing Cyberwoman assuming that all the rage between them was due to them shagging. Otherwise a lot of it was way over the top. Plus of course the kiss in that episode. Then the non verbal stuff in Countrycide.

I also remember on first viewing Capt Jack Harkness that I just thought that Jack/Ianto were casual. I don't think they would do that episode now without some kind of angst or repercussion. Even then I thought it was a little cheeky of him, but wondered if something changed after, as they did seem more properly together in End of Days.

[alba17.livejournal.com]

Barging in here ---I'm so glad to hear tencrush say that that scene in KKBB was the weirdest, because I've been thinking that very same thing after re-watching it recently. The first time I watched KKBB, i'd only seen one other TW ep, so I didn't really understand the dynamics of the characters. Now, I've seen both series in their entirety, so that scene really stands out as bizarre. Totally agree, WTF? The implication is that Jack was planning on getting together with Gwen AND Ianto. I don't think he asked Ianto on a date because Gwen was engaged, since he says he was thinking about it while he was away.

[alba17.livejournal.com]

That's a really good point. Plus, (not directly on point, but), everyone Jack has had sexual interaction with on TW has been a man, actually. They refer to past relationships with women, but we've never actually seen one in current time. (I don't count Gwen.) And all his little "I once dated..." asides are about men, as I remember it.

Just one more thing...

[(Anonymous)]

The other thing I have thought is that the BBC production people seem very keen to flesh out the Jack/Ianto relationship on the websites. I have wondered for a while if this is to ensure that we get it, that it is less ambiguous. I know some people don't regard it as canon, however it is official stuff, and approved as such. The US stuff is very obvious, but even the British site has contained references in both series, and definitely hasn't lent any credence to other interpretations, such as Jack/Gwen true wuv etc.

God really must get to bed now, I should have just opened an account for this thread!

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

I've seen 'em. Post-Countrycide therapeutic rape!fic. Which Ianto always ends up enjoying.

So many kinds of wrong.

I go in wanting a little H/C, and come out with Jack and Ianto all defiled.

[stopwatch-plz.livejournal.com]

Meep!

there are so many kinds of wrong out there... *hides back under duvet, writes more fluff!*

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

Oh god, Captain Jack Harkness. Such a schizophrenic episode in terms of Jack/Ianto. On the one hand, we have Jack saying "I don't have anyone," and on the other hand we have Ianto insisting "I'm not just a teaboy" and "Jack needs me." Any interpretation that Ianto meant that only in a professional sense goes flying out the window by his reaction to Owen's "part-time shag" comment. Oy, this episode is exhibit one for the pov that Jack is just using Ianto for a sextoy. Fortunately, they decided to fix it with, let's see, the tenderness with which Jack kisses Ianto in End of Days, asking Ianto out for a date in KKBB, the speech in TtLM. It actually takes hand-waving away one comment -- Jack's "I don't have anyone" -- for the whole thing to make sense, so... *g*

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

Probably the most unnerving thing is: do the writers even recognize what they're writing is rape? Because it's never shown up in the warnings as non-con or dub-con, which I wouldn't read.

Adam's little flourish of sexual violence with Ianto was enough to last me decades, thank you. O_____O

I'm with you.

*loves NotPsycho!Jack/Ianto*

[stopwatch-plz.livejournal.com]

*makes space under duvet*

See, I wrote a fic serial-killer!Ianto, but I made damn sure there was flashing lights and warnings and extra warnings because i know that it's probably not to everyone's taste... just as I'd assume people would warn for Mpeg, which makes me squick a thousand squicks!

And I'm still really a bit of a n00b in the whole fandom thing in general... you live and learn, eh? *lol*

[prongsy.livejournal.com]

Jack even defers to Ianto's opinions on things. In "Meat" he asks him if he really shows off (to which Ianto says he does, and Jack sort of shrugs and accepts it). In "To the Last Man", Ianto initiates the mega-kiss. In "Adrift" Ianto is the one getting Jack off. AND, Ianto is the one to go behind Jack's back and do his own thing in regards to telling Gwen, and it's allowed. Jack knows it's Ianto (he says as much to Gwen) but he never punishes him. From everything series 2 as shown us, at least from what I have seen, if there is a dominant one in the relationship... it's Ianto and not Jack!