I was just fucking witcha...

[tencrush]

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

Comments

[crunknwj.livejournal.com]

i too came from torch_wood and wanted to weigh in on this :)

i too agree that jack is not the sort of guy that's going to abuse his power of being in charge to get ianto to sleep with him. while jack can sometimes have some interesting ways of going about things, and can be a down right bastard whenever he has to be, he would never EVER use any of the members of his team for his own gain. you can tell from all of the past instances that he loves everyone on the team unconditionally, no matter what they've done (and done to him) in the past. if he didn't love them, then he never would've forgiven ianto for lisa, owen for shooting him, etc etc.

now, i do believe that jack is still a big old flirt that would do anything with a hole. but a lot of his talk is just that...talk. i don't think he would ever act on anything without the consent of the other person/people or put them in an uncomfortable situation. he knows where to draw the line and step back. but i also think that a lot of his flirtatious attitude depends on the company he's in. whenever he's with the doctor is when we see the most of his flirtatious side. whenever he first returned to torchwood, he tried (with the naked wrestling comment) but he didn't get the reaction he was expecting. we really didn't see him being a playful flirt again till reset, whenever martha came in. i think that around the team, he's business before pleasure and tries to keep a tight upper lip to make sure that he gets the respect from the team he deserves. throw people outside of the team into the mix, then all of that goes out the window.

now, when it comes to the jack/ianto relationship, i believe that they are mostly in a fuck buddy sort of relationship. however, ianto definitely has feelings for jack, and jack, deep down, has feelings for ianto. but for the sake of keeping things in order around the Hub, they keep it strictly to sex, some off hand flirting, and maybe even a date every so often. the only way i could ever see an actual relationship working for the two of them would be if one of them leaves torchwood. with neither of them are going to do, so things are going to be casual, no matter how much TPTB (read: the fangirls) want it to happen.

they love each other, but they don't LOVE each other. maybe deep down, but i don't think they would ever come out and admit it. at least, not jack anyway. they're both in a comfortable relationship with what they have going right now, and as long as they're enjoying themselves, then there shouldn't be any need to put any type of label on what they are.

they just are.

(i've obviously put lots of thought into this lol. i'm playing ianto in an rpg and me and the jack-mun had a big old in depth conversation about their relationship and how we interpreted it so that's my story and i'm sticking to it lol.)

[kiltfriction.livejournal.com]

When it comes to Jack/Ianto people are seeing different things because we're getting mixed signals. It's as simple as that. There is no overall direction for stories or characters. That leaves different writers putting their own spin on it and the actors improvising with what they have.

While plurality of views is always a good thing from fans Torchwood as a series is suffering from not knowing what its own view is. The Jack/Ianto splinter groups are just one manifestation of a lack of a Head Writer.

[sage-theory.livejournal.com]

I really think that what readings of Jack/Ianto as just a sex thing tend to forget is what Jack *hasn't* done.

I mean, he's flirted and pinched a few bottoms, but notice that he HASN'T gone after Gwen or anyone else in a major way. He's had a snog or two. Considering Jack's usual nature, for him to keep it in his pants that was says a lot for how he must feel for Ianto.

Plus, he sort of forgave the whole Cyberwoman thing. And for Jack, that was probably a big, big big deal.

I think Jack loved the Doctor and Rose equally and fervently, so at that point in canon, he believes that Rose died in Canary Wharf, and to forgive Ianto for harboring the enemy that killed ONE OF HIS BEST FRIENDS EVAR is a big, big deal.

Also? I know this is going to sound a bit silly since this is all Stuff Wot Is Made Up In Other People's Heads, but Jack is a 51st century guy and we're 21st century, so what True Love means to him might come off as strange to us. Especially since we're still heavily invested in traditions like marriage and raising kids and buying houses and whatnot.

I also think people who read it as just sex tend to be shortsighted on how tricky and subtle dominant/submissive type relationships can be. Or on who's dominant.

Because the thing is? I can completely believe that Ianto is sort of the invisible command. After all, he basically has a hand in every pie, knows where all the bodies are buried, and I just think sometimes he scoots aside and lets Jack lay down his thing because it keeps order. But I also think that if you needed something done right and done quickly within Torchwood, you'd go to Ianto first, not Jack.

Notice that Ianto was willing to shoot Owen to keep him from doing something spectacularly fucktarded with the rift machine. Ianto obviously is capable of laying down the law and enforcing it. And I think it's telling that Ianto WASN'T the last to stay by Jack's side when they all thought he was dead. Because Ianto probably realized that there were THINGS THAT NEEDED DOING.

Because Jack, also, I think, is kind of lazy as commanders go and only seeks to have full command of a situation when he's engaged or really worried or feels obligated.

I don't think that Jack would ever just use someone as a sextoy, because even though he does get around, notice that sex is just so *joyful* for him. It's not abusive, it's not using the person. Jack really does like and enjoy the people he chooses to be with, and he wants to please them. Notice he kept in touch with his ex-executioners (!). He wants them to be happy.

If his wandering nature comes from anything, I think it's a fear of what happens if he can't make his partners happy anymore, when things get too serious. So he tries to leave quietly and make someone else happy.

Think of him less as a slut and more of a sexual Father Christmas.

[stopwatch-plz.livejournal.com]

If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

Yes.

That's been the major feeling with me, too. That, and so many people seem to think he's this "out for himself/doesn't care about anyone elses feelings" character which i think is, well, kinda dangerous, in a way.
Especially - and speaking from a personal slant here - I'm fucking fed-up with so much anti-bi crap going on, from the gay and straight communities, that I'm kinda pissed off that this is the first time we could have a good representation in TV media, but it's all gone sideways.

[tencrush]

Oh, definitely, I think everyone's in agreement on that. The show needs a bible and head writer. I just don't think TPTB realise how detrimental that differing approach and that lack of structure is to the characters, and to that alleged liberal, progressive stance on sexuality they keep patting themselves on the back for showing us.

[tencrush]

Mmm. It's using onmisexuality, which is their sci-fi slant on bisexuality, as an excuse for someone having their cake and eating it, or sleeping around, or whatever. It's not very helpful in promoting a healthy view of bisexuality if you allow so much room for the omnisexual guy's motivations to be interpreted in this way.

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

You're angry because other people's understanding of the characters is not as nuanced as your own.

Specifically, you're getting angry because teenaged boy's understanding of the characters is not as nuanced as your own. In short, you're getting angry at teenaged boys for being stupid idiots.

While I understand the impulse, that's like getting angry at the rain for falling or babies for crying. It's a fact of life that only time can change.

[stopwatch-plz.livejournal.com]

The thing that gets me even more are the fanfic writers who write about Jack pretty much forcing Ianto into sex in the immediate aftermath of Cyberwoman because "you need this". Ok, that's not even harrassment

Whoa - I've never read any of that, and i'm damn glad I haven't, otherwise I'd probably throw things at the screen. That's seven shades of sideways :/

[tencrush]

I agree with you, I don't think any of these things either. I'm just trying to explain why it bugs me that there is room in the story for people to think these things. These things should be made slightly more unambiguous when it comes to Jack.

[stopwatch-plz.livejournal.com]

*nods*

It just really pisses me off that, for a character who's meant to be all fluid-sexuality, the only female interest he's really had is someone who's a colleague and engaged, and the male interest is someone who's (half-robot) girlfriend) was killed by him. I mean, dude, that's gonna cause some issues somewhere *lol*

I think this has been my biggest factor behind the major Jack-hating i've had this series

[tencrush]

I'm not angry. I'm perfectly happy. The sun's out, my baby's standing and impressing me with her skillz, my boy's not spent the day whining at me, which is what he usually does. Life's great. :)

I'm just trying to explain why I WAS angry, and it's not specifically because teenage boys are stupid idiots, it's because I feel there are too many holes left by the writing for teenage boys to fill up with stupid idiocy. I wish one or two of those holes had been filled with sensibleness.

[crystalshard.livejournal.com]

You're making perfect sense. Jack's not the kind of guy who'd use someone: if he had been, he'd have been sleeping with Gwen. I'm not trying to say anything about Gwen, but she was confused about her dual feelings for Rhys and Jack. It would have been so easy for Jack to push things over the line . . . but he didn't. Jack doesn't use people. He flirts, sure but it seems like it's always others who take the final step past flirting. Jack waves the banner saying "Here I am, I'm available," but doesn't actively pursue things.

There's also the bit you mentioned about power dynamics. Jack isn't always in control - in fact, for all the Captain arrogance, he really does look to others to check his behaviour. He hires Gwen purely so that she can give him some perspective and bring him back to the line he wants to walk. He asks Ianto if he shows off in 'Meat', and accepts Ianto's assessment without questioning it. And if you look at the pterodactyl scene in 'Fragments', then you'll see the power dynamics shifting so fast it's as if you're at a tennis match. Jack may have to be the Captain at Torchwood, but that's no guide as to how he is off duty. In fact, I don't think we've ever seen him away from Torchwood when he's not on duty to some extent, so there's no real baseline.

Hope that made sense!

[rhianona]

One of the things that does tend to annoy me about the interpretation of Jack's character is that it presumes he has not grown as a person. Most people assume that he is the *same* as he was in Bad Wolf/Parting of Ways. Now if Ianto had met Jack in lets say Boom Town, then yes, I think we would see a more "sex toy", let's have fun type relationship. I also don't think it would have been more than a few nights at most before Jack went back to the Doctor and Rose. But Jack has been on Earth for a while by the time we have Everything Changes. I can't recall off the top of my head when we learn exactly when Jack ended up back on Earth. But even disregarding the amount of time he's spent on Earth, taking the slow path, without the Doctor and Rose, there were some rather major events that had an impact on Jack's life that we knew from the start of TW: (1) dying and coming back to life in Parting of Ways; (2) then being abandoned by the Doctor and Rose; (3) far in the future, on a station full of dead people and Daleks; and (4) apparently with the new ability to never die. And that's just from the Parting of Ways! somehow, Jack had to go back in time, which means he had to get off the station in some manner. This had to be a very traumatic time for him and I can't help but think it changed how he viewed life. The Doctor and Rose had already changed him, just by traveling with them. But if you notice, he is still quite light hearted in Parting of Ways. By Everything Changes, he's still quite fun, but carries a lot of darkness with him.

Now yes, Jack is very charming and a flirt. And I think he would flirt with anyone at anytime - that's just his personality, and a defining characteristic of him - the writers for TW can't completely change him from the outset because then, what's the point of having a character introduced in DW become the star of a spin off - especially if you want it to be successful? But, I also think he takes relationships seriously and understands that he is living in the 21st C not the 51st C. I also think he is enough of a leader to realize that merely using Ianto for sex is not going to help his team - and he cares for his team, very deeply (even if that came clear more in season 2 than 1. There are however, episodes in season 1 that indicate how deeply he cares: Cyberwoman, TKKS, Countrycide.) He's not going to mess with the dynamics unless he really wants something more than just a sex toy. While Ianto may be more convenient than say, going out on the pull in terms of being right there, he is not convenient in the emotional sense. There is a lot of emotional baggage between them that could seriously mess up the dynamics of the team. It is one reason I think Ianto made the first move on Jack. Yes, there was attraction from the start, and I think Jack made it known to Ianto that he would be interested - but that is all.

Now having said that, and having rewatched KKBB just last night, I do think the writers have messed up a bit in the way they have portrayed the Gwen/Jack relationship. I think one reason for questioning just how committed Jack is to Ianto is the scene where Jack finds out Gwen is engaged: he is utterly shocked. That we don't have a private scene between Ianto and Jack before then, does leave open to interpretation whether Jack would have actually asked Ianto out on a date if Gwen were not engaged. OTOH, when Jack left, Gwen had just led the rebellion against him (facilitated by Owen) all in order to save Rhys, so I don't think he would necessarily have assumed Gwen was available, even without the engagement ring. Gwen is also allowed to get away with a lot of things that it is not clear Jack would allow others to do. It would have been nice had there been a Ianto-centric episode that had given us more insight into who is he now and how he is with Jack, rather than the glimpses we are forced to parse together from the different episodes.

[cowgrrl.livejournal.com]

The buried alive situation -- it's my biggest gripe. Jack should have been completely insane after being buried alive for 2000 years, which would have ruined the show of course. But the fact that he comes out of it fine, with nothing more than a little dirt on his face is completely ludicrous. That premise should have been thrown out by the writers and editorial team. Can you imagine a premise that unbelievable being presented in fanfic? I hope they find a way to retcon "Exit Wounds".

But back to the actual topic, sad to say I have little faith in the writers to do a good job. I think the ambiguity comes from homophobia, or biphobia. I'm really glad Jack/Ianto is text, not subtext. That's progress. But we get to see all the heterosexual couples in bed, doing normal heterosexual couple type things. I guess they're ok with lesbians, too (Tosh and Mary). But Jack and Ianto? The only time we see them overtly sexual it's about 3 seconds of kinkiness in the greenhouse. I want to see them snuggling in bed in the morning. I want to see as much of a relationship between them as we've gotten with the other characters' relationships. But that's why there's so much fanfic, I guess. Because the actual show only teases and refuses to go there.

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

Ianto obviously is capable of laying down the law and enforcing it.

In that same ep when Ianto tells Gwen to 'get out now, that's an order' and Owen tried to countermand that it's Ianto Gwen obeys, not Owen.

[takenatwork.livejournal.com]

I think another confusing thing about the writing/filming of the show is that Jack's 51st childhood didn't look very different - Mum, Dad, 2 kids. They didn't look very omnisexual, although it was only a glimpse. But it all adds to the confusion.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

The problem with Jack/Ianto can be sumed up in one word - ambiguous, ambiguous, ambiguous. We know that Ianto has a strong attachment to Jack - regardless of whether or not it's romantic attachment - but Jack's feelings are not at all clear.

Heck, RTD could tell us straight that whilst Ianto's falling in love with Jack, Jack isn't falling in love with Ianto and I'd find that easier to handle than all of this ambiguous stuff. We know Rhys loves Gwen. We know Rhys worships the ground that Gwen walks on. We know Rhys fell in love with Gwen the minute he first laid eyes on her. We know Rhys thinks that Gwen is "a bloody hero" And the writers and producers wanted us to know that too. So why aren't things so clear cut with Jack and Ianto or indeed Jack and Gwen? Probably because the writers want to keep their options open.

However, I don't think the ambiguous nature of the Janto relationship is going to continue into S3, so I'm not too worried about that at this point in time. :) We'll get some answers one way or another I'm sure.

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

Those same holes are what give us so much room for our imaginations to play in. Not everyone is going to have subtle and sophisticated imaginations, as any trawl through fanfic will reveal.

[tencrush]

I think the Jack/Gwen scene in KKBB was pretty much the weirdest of the series. I don't think ANYONE really understood what that scene was trying to say. I still to this day don't get his shock, nor her "no one else will have me", the whole scene just makes me go WTF??

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry about being anonymous by the way, I don't have an account as I have no use for it normall, but really wanted to comment on this.

I think that a lot of the relationship is played out in subtext. The chemistry between them has been palpable from the start and there has been a lot of lovely body language moments, really something in each episode. As for Jack, he has a smile that he only uses for Ianto. His body language relaxes when he is alone with him. Also he can't take his eyes of him, and does often gaze in quite a dreamy way. While I love a bit of porn, and nice snogs, I think declarations and too much happy coupledom tend to be the death of a relationship in drama.

In KKBB Jack makes it clear that he has been thinking about Ianto and taking it further while away, that whole scene is lovely, and full of subtext. I almost feel that the Jack/Gwen dynamic is problematic due to the performances, much as I hate to say it, the problem with the engagement ring scene is an overlay of histrionics, I think it is easy to read too much into it that isn't necessarily there. It is a Chibnall ep, and he has made it clear that he sees the relationship between Jack/Ianto as romantic ( he said so quite clearly in the Fragments confidential).

I'm glad they don't have a bible. It has allowed Ianto to be developed, it has allowed Rhys to be developed, the writers have responded to onscreen chemistry and dynamics. One of the things I hate about a lot of those US dramas with the bibles is that you end up with pairings that have absolutely zero on screen chemistry.

[flyingwild.livejournal.com]

See, I think my big problem with the way people in the fandom approach this 'relationship' is there it seems to always be the extremes - they're either all about "twoo wuv" or the sex-toy thing.

What about just casual partners? Fuck buddies? That sort of thing? THAT is what it seems like to me more than anything else, really.

[tencrush]

I think that a lot of the relationship is played out in subtext. The chemistry between them has been palpable from the start and there has been a lot of lovely body language moments, really something in each episode. As for Jack, he has a smile that he only uses for Ianto. His body language relaxes when he is alone with him. Also he can't take his eyes of him, and does often gaze in quite a dreamy way.
Absolutely. I'm not campaigning for huge declarations of coupledom, all the things you say are true, and they're things I've seen, I just don't think they've been quite apparent ENOUGH to the audience as a whole.

an overlay of histrionics
LOL. Wordy McWordyword. It scares me that with the team as it stands, we're going to have more Jack/Gwen scenes rather than less, because the way John and Eve play off each other, it's just... eww. No. Bad OTT stuff.

[glorfindelghost.livejournal.com]

I think the problem with that is that there's far too much baggage and history for it to be a no-strings bit of fun - If either of them wanted something like that then they could have had it with anybody they wanted.

However much both of them are able to compartmentalise things, you can't just skim over all the hurt and the past - although, coincidentally, that same history may be the same thing that stops Jack letting himself getting more involved. They're sort of stuck in no-man's land, at this awkward stage where there's clearly something there but it would be way too brave to take it further. Their own shread history is both a bond and a hindrance.

[theninth.livejournal.com]

It's complete bullshit, which is exactly why that whole situation gets on my nerves so much, and I hate that the show is not-so-subtly perpetuating that idea with the Jack/Gwen stuff.

I don't particularly care if Jack/Ianto isn't a hearts-and-flowers romance thing. I don't really want it to be a "one true love" situation. But I absolutely don't want the "Gwen is Jack's great love" thing simply because it reinforces the wrong ideal.

I also don't want "Jack/Doctor OTP" either, but that's another topic for another fandom. ;)

[kakareen.livejournal.com]

"He flirts like a woman."? Huh. Could you dip into that a bit? I have a hard time understanding societies view of gender-roles, I'd like some detail so I can know what you mean....

....it WOULD help explain why I, as a lesbian, am still somehow attracted to him....

....then again, it IS Captain Jack Harkness/John Barrowman....