Haha SPOILERS DON'T READ

[tencrush]

In Russell's world, bumsex with Russell Tovey pretty much fixes all your emo manpain, no matter how vast, yeah?

That's pretty faily right there. Not as faily as that thing with Martha and you know who, but still pretty fucking offensively faily. As was that thing with Donna. Wow, that's a lot of fucking fail to heap upon an awful lot of companions.

DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOUR ASS RUSSELL.

Also, did Simm just disappear, never to be mentioned again, or did it just seem that way?

Comments

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Amen Sistah! The RTD hate is nothing but amusing, along with the hypocrisy that accompanies it, along with the usual implied threats by those who think that all their Fight Club friends aren't talking about Fight Club.

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

I'm curious about this. Why is everyone who hasn't liked RTD's writing as of late considered a "hater?" And why does there seem to be this need to group people who criticize his work as though they are some sort of hive mind with an agenda?

I'm not accusing you, but it seems you're chiming in with someone who has that opinion, and I've been wanting to get a straight answer from someone who is familiar with the idea of discussion without using heaps of logical fallacies to "prove" points.

Many of us more than willingly admit liking his work in the past. I don't think you'd find a person on this blog post or in any DW or TW forum who would not thank RTD for bringing back DW and creating TW. That doesn't absolve him forever from making mistakes, or getting called on them. Some of us, me included, could even care less about Ianto's death. And still others love everything he's done, and appreciate the OTT nature of his recent work. Good for them too.

Isn't it equally possible that different people disliked different things for different reasons, but all like to commune with those who will hear them out and discuss their issues? Isn't that how people come together? Common interest? So, several people who already participated in tencrush's blog, or posted on GB, or wherever happen to come to a similar conclusion about something and want to talk about it. Why not treat these people as individuals and actually talk write responses to posts specifically if you have an issue with what someone says? No one here would fault you for it. I don't think anyone here is that kind of person, and you might find some healthy discussion. Isn't it healthier than assuming people who disagree with you are some sort of Mean Girls out to rob your fun?

It seems so easy to create this idea of a "Fight Club" mentality that sniggers in back rooms and plots to trash RTD because it's "so cool." It's ludicrous. You create these ideas because it's easier than dealing with the idea that lots of individuals might possibly disagree with you independently. The thing is, I'm sure lots of people agree with you too, and liked the episode, or loved CoE. I don't see anyone here going on about people who liked the episode as if they started some cabal to prop up RTD. No one here thinks that those who liked this episode, or CoE, are trying to be "cool" by having that opinion, and starting threads over at GB or on their own blogs to gush and squee with others over Rose's appearance and such. No one is running over to trash their opinions in the most dismissive and shallow way possible.

Isn't it possible that someone who grew up on a TV show might have some feelings about that TV show regardless of who is writing it? Whether it's a daytime soap or a night time sci-fi show. Isn't it possible that someone could be enamored with an actor for their talent - or otherwise - and care when they feel their character was mistreated? Isn't it possible that absolutely none of the issues have to do with proving RTD wrong, or creating a cult of hate around him? You all act like there aren't other factors or people involved in these issues. RTD does not exist in a vacuum. The shows' characters, actors, directors, and other writers also have fans that could care less about RTD and what he does next.

Other writers get criticized, and the critics aren't accused with such hyperbole and defensiveness. I just don't get it. Yes, he's created some beloved characters. The catch is that he's not the only one who went into those creations. There were actors, and costume designers, and directors, and in some cases other writers who some feel may have grasped those creations better than RTD. He also didn't create Doctor Who. Terry Nation did in 1963. There have been many writers, and actors, and costume designers, and directors before now that people have loved and hated. Loving Doctor Who, or the Whoniverse, has nothing to do with RTD. And loving Doctor Who, and good writing, has nothing to do with Ianto fucking Jones.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't get that thinking either. Presumably they also have things they dislike about a show, character etc. so are we to assume that they are just being "haters" and dismiss their opinions with equal condescension?

I also agree there are a lot of reasons why people might invest in a tv show and the writing might not always be the biggest part of that. Torchwood is a prime example of that for me. I thought the writing was kind of weak a lot of the time and gave the impression that the writers were forced to write in their own private vacuums with no real sense of what had gone on before or where the story was supposed to be going, but I thought the characters and actors and some of the ideas were interesting and had potential which might explain why Torchwood works better in fan fiction these days than it did as a show as a whole.It did have its moments, but moments only carry you so far.

As for RTD. I don't think he's brilliant or a genius (sorry RTD), but I don't think he's the worst writer evah. However, I do tend to like a lot the ideas behind his writing or at least what I think he's going for more than the actual writing, which can be strong in parts, but too often weak in others. I can't decide if he just loses focus after while, leaves everything to the last minute and so is forced to rush or just doesn't have the capabilities to follow through on the big ideas he obviously wants to explore. I suspect it's probably all of the above.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

OK, if you are one of those people who's rage or dislike of RTD has nothing to do with the Ianto situation, then I'm sorry and I apologize for the rile-up.

Howevere...there are locked communities, where people are reminded constantly not to share their views with the outside world (to no avail) that are completely and totally united in their hatred of RTD because of and only because of the events of CoE.

The self-same people have of late been EXTREMELY hypocritical, deciding that RTD is a bad writer and the scum of the earth, when they were previously heaping love upon him for the so-called canon-slash they thought they were getting.

In my case, I'm essentially only a New-Whovian and a Jack-centric one to boot, so yeah, I'm highly sensitive to that particular thread of the Who-niverse and that one point of the finale.

Which WAS the point addressed in the VERY FIRST LINE of tencrush's post, and by implication teamharkness's response.

I'm genuinely sorry that you feel RTD's work has harmed something you cherish. Meanwhile I've gotten four amazing years of Dr. Who, one good year of Torchwood, one so-so one, and a five-episode mini-series that in the end gave me back the character I'd fallen in love with (Jack) and the hope of future stories with that character.

As a one-issue voter, my approach to the Who-verse and RTD does tend to be a bit skewed and my reactions to certain criticism somewhat defensive.

However, you can't deny there is the equivalent of the VRWC that hates on the RTD for the very same issue.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind me jumping into your post, but did you ever get those Due South dvds for Christmas? What did think of the show?

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

I actually put them on my Netflix queue. We've finished the first one and just got in the 2nd. I posted about this at my LJ, thanking you by name, but I understand if that's not an LJ you want to friend or regularly read.

We love the show, the dog, the Benton/Ray dynamic, the humor, and the quirkiness. (Hubby has dubbed it "Touched by a Canadian.)

So thanks again for participating in Come As Your Not and turning me on to the show. Once we've finished more of the episodes, I'll go back and re-read the story.

Happy New Year!

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'We love the show, the dog, the Benton/Ray dynamic, the humor, and the quirkiness. (Hubby has dubbed it 'Touched by a Canadian'.)'
Touched by a Canadian, priceless.

Thanks for mentioning me. We may have our differences when it comes to TW, but we really can love a quirky Canadian show.

'We love the show, the dog, the Benton/Ray dynamic, the humor, and the quirkiness. (Hubby has dubbed it "Touched by a Canadian.) '
Cool. If you ever do anything Due South related or want to check out the fandom, ds_noticeboad is a good general Due South posting com.

'Once we've finished more of the episodes, I'll go back and re-read the story.'
Just so you know, Ray Kowalski (the Ray in the story and the one in my icon) doesn't show up until the third season.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Well all fandoms have their extremes that's just a by-product of the www and its unfiltered access. I generally don't regard that as proof that just because there are people who act that way that everyone or even the majority of people who like/dislike a particular character, writer etc. are therefore of the same mind. As has already been pointed out people like/ dislike things for a variety of reasons and there are a lot of valid reasons for disliking RTD's work that don't relate to a particular character death. His work certainly isn't above criticism. In terms of writing that applies more to Who to Torchwood since he only wrote two episodes of Torchwood, but since he's the producer/creator and by his own admission has a big hand in the decision making on the show if he's going to happily take credit for the good then he has to be willing to take responsibility for the bad.

Most of the criticisms of his work I tend to share and I think unfortunately these last few Who episodes highlighted some of his worst habits and Torchwood was always, unfortunately more about the character potential and moments than anything else and while I didn't hate COE for me if that was a reflection of the show at its best then I can't say I'll regret moving on. And unlike you Jack's 'progression/regression'? and in fact most of the Torchwood stuff was the least involving aspect of COE for me, a couple of moments excepted. Even the grandchild sacrificing was more emotive inducing than a truly emotional moment for me.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

I agree that no one is above criticism or reproach. And of course if it had all gone the other way in CoE and TEOT, I'd be the one building shrines (to real!Jack) and making snide comments about RTD's personality, love-life, weight etc.

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

Seriously, watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI

It's brilliant. There are so many germane points throughout. For both the recent spate of Doctor Whos, and even a bit with Torchwood.

Also, yes, that thing on his face. Ugh.

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

See, I still don't understand what any of that coffeboy nonsense has to do with Doctor Who. Because this post, and the last several, have been about Doctor Who, not Torchwood. I also haven't seen very much sympathy for that coffeeboy nonsense on this personal blog, so what you're saying just doesn't work.

Posts on a person's blog don't exist in a vacuum, just like Rusty's writing. Yes, her first line made some pissy comments about Jack's behavior, but I think you already know what she thinks about "saving Ianto," so why take it out of context?

You said it yourself, you are new to this, and mainly concerned with a single character. This is a blog post about a show that barely involves that character, and pretty much entirely concerned with the aspects of the show that have nothing to do with the character you care about. Why choose now to make a post like that? It seemed out of place, irrelevant, and made any accusations your were trying to make silly on the face of it. Seriously, Fight Club? You've lost all credibility.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

That is somewhat disingenuous. Who/Torchwood/SJA are somewhat integrated at this point. The Doctor appeared in a SJA episode and TW has deliberately referenced the Doctor. Since the first line of the post was clearly about Jack and not any other aspect of the episode and since Tencrush is a fan of Ianto, I think it's not completely out of line to assume her ire was directed at RTD for providing Jack with a new sexual partner and that she thinks there was grief for Ianto. (Having seen the ep, I disagree.)

My response was not to the main-post, but to Teamharkness' mention of the RTD hate, which has been vociferous since CoE, and most virulent on the part of those who are pissed about the death of Ianto, and specifically their resentment over not getting the J/I they thought they were promised. (They're now planning to send letters to members of the Government including the statement that they were LIED TO.) Yeah, hon...fight club. In fact they keep reminding members of their locked community, not tell anyone what's going on in it. (Luckily I have peeps on the inside.)

Coffeeboy Nonsense IS relevant to Dr. Who because the coffe-baggers are currently enraged about the brief scene in The End of Time and take it as personal affront to them and their cause.

So relative to the first line of Tencrush's post and the specific comment that I entered the post to reply to...yeah, relavent.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Kareo- I strongly disagree with your assessment. And I'm a little surprised by it. Yes, I know you didn't like Ianto. Fine, he's dead. Gone, not coming back. But that has nothing to do with the narrative quality of RTD's work.

I think TenCrush's next post does a much better job describing some of the problems in the show. And its become a constant issue with RTD's recent work. Dropping in characters out of the sky. Changing story lines at whim. Abandoning cannon for a quick laugh or man-pain. This is poor writing.

Maybe my expectations are too high, but if a writer tells me something is the best thing ever, then I expect it be at least well plotted, and coherent. I didn't have particularly high expectations for TW S1 & S2. It was a silly cracky sci-fi show - and I accepted it as such.

RTD wants to make S3 a 'serious' drama, fine, but that requires a lot more care with the writing than a cracky show (as opposed to a well written comedy which is far more difficult to get right).

I give RTD full credit for reviving DW and creating TW. And I liked the first couple of seasons of both. But he always seems to end up telling the same story. Man-pain city. Oh the angst. Oh, so not interested.

The irony is that you are going to have to decide whether you want to be a Gwen/Jack shipper if there's a TW4. Man-whore Jack from DW isn't coming back. No its going to be all kissy-face Jack, Gwen and the baby once they throw Rhys under the bus. Hmm...somehow I don't think that fits your cannon. But you won't be complaining, right?

Love your stories, but you missed the boat on this one.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Kareo? Izzat my new nickname? Cool.

I'm thrilled to hear that you like my stories as well.

I honestly do think we're more likely to real!Jack back than you think, and of course my hope is UST with Gwen along with real!Jack flirting up a storm.

IF we get graphic sex and ILU with Gwen, I'd make the case that it was OOC, but it would more IC than the J/I situation because of the John/Eve chemistry and the fact that (much as we might disapprove) there does seem to be a dichotomy in Jack's relationships and even though it won't work in the end, he's more likely to attempt the curtain buying with a woman. (Plus a certain vindictive part will enjoy watching the explosion from the Gwen-haters who have claimed that never wanted/loved Gwen.)

Can we have moritorium on the phrase man-pain? Jack has pain. Period. All the characters do and it's pretty damn sexist to make fun of any character's issues only because of their gender.

Really glad you like the stories though. Did you read Role Reversal? Kind of my ultimate statement of Jack and some of his attachments.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Hey, glad you like the new nickname, LOL.

I don't think we'll see bastard!Jack back because Gwen is his favorite and I think he'll want to make all the Gwen/Jack shippers happy. They'll have a contenscious relationship (a la Moonlighting), but eventually domestic. Kai Owen said at a recent con that he didn't expect Rhys to live through S4.

Ultimately, I think what bothers me the most is that in order to get romantic Gwen/Jack to work RTD had to totally change the personality of Gwen from nosy, selfish, self-absorbed to MommyGoodWifeGwen. If she had started out that way, I'd be fine with it, but she obviously had a personality transplant between S2 & S3.

I wouldn't mind Bastard!Jack back. It would at least make sense in the context of the CoE. Man loses his lover (or shag from your point of view), kills his grandson, alienates his daughter, so he doesn't want to form new attachments. In fact, I would Love, I mean Love for Gwen to just be another in a long line of shags for Jack. But that's not going to happen, not in RTD's universe anyway.

As for 'man-pain' its meant to be derogatory. It probably is sexist, but RTD doesn't write this type of angst for his female characters. No, they just get their memories wiped (Donna) or go crazy (Suzie) or selflessly die (Tosh). And trust me when Rhys meets his tragic death, Gwen will grieve, but it will not be the same. Only the male lead character has this peculiar, over-the-top angst. Can I call it hero-pain? That's not gender specific.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

We'll have to wait and see.

Out of curiosity, did you read Role Reversal? That story makes your exact point. If Gwen and Ianto's roles were reversed then Gwen would in fact be EXACTLY what Ianto is, just a shag. Period. End of story. Because that's who Jack is, and when confronted with the situation he admits it to himself.

IF we'd been given that Jack and a TW where everyone screws everyone, and James Moran's Captain's Blog crap had been flushed down the toilet where it belongs, I think we all could have had a much happier TW experience.

Give J/I the the Stopwatch scene, but then have one episode where Jack has to be dragged half-naked out of someone else's flat to go fight an alien. Then we'd know that Jack was still Jack and neither the J/Iers or the J/Gers would have a horse to get high on.

Life would be beautiful.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Isn't Jack just basically another version of Ten just with more sexin' these days? Maybe that's why he's lost his sheen for me since I can't say I'm a big fan of Ten either. He's just another version of the angst-ridden 'lonely god' "nobody knows the troubles I've seen" trope RTD seems fond of except instead of sacrificing his 'people' he gets to sacrifice various relatives for the greater good while stoically suffering in his loneliness (or not) because no-one understands how lonely it is at the top having to be the immortal anti-hero all the time.

I wouldn't have minded if they'd stuck with a s1 Who version of Jack for Torchwood since I think that was probably the best version of him, but if they went back to that version after the events of COE I probably would end up hating him and despite the show's best efforts I'd rather retain at least a little bit of fondness for Jack.

[teamharkness.livejournal.com]

And all these comments about how they don't understand what I'm saying ... really? RTD has to be brilliant if they're reaching for things to hate him about.

Those of you who don't know what I'm talking about? Don't play dumb. You hate RTD because he killed Ianto -- and I have a 400 page manifest to prove it.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Per some of the more detailed comments, I'm sure there could be other reasons among people in this thread. HOWEVER there's also those currently fulminating in their coffee-bagging fight club who plainly show they would have nominated RTD for saint-hood if he'd given them the J/I they were convinced they'd been promised.

[teamharkness.livejournal.com]

LOL. That's all. Sorry, but Jack will not lament the death of Ianto forever. He's got alot of years ahead of him and he is the intergalactic manwhore of the year.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Well in my fanon, only as part of the litany he went through at the end of CoE, where Ianto wasn't given either first or last place (as in, and most of all Ianto).

In fact, I'm don't think his moping at the bar is necessarily Ianto related as much as the whole thing and of course leaving Gwen for he thinks is her own good.

Intergalactic Manwhore of this year, decade and century, baby!

(AND HE'S COMING BACK!!!)

[as1mplegirl.livejournal.com]

LOL. That's all. Sorry, but Jack will not lament the death of Ianto forever at all.

Fixed that for you.

[tencrush]

Most people in this thread and indeed on my friendslist don't hate RTD because he killed Ianto, so I don't really understand why you're choosing to hate on the SIJ-batshit in my journal specifically, I have no sympathy for them, and nobody on this thread has expressed any.

I've harboured a severe dislike for Rusty pretty much since the beach scene at Bad Wolf Bay and he's just heaped reason upon reason on top of it for me to think he's a mediocre one-trick writer at best with a view on relationships that I find distasteful. This finale just proves that in many ways, even though it was far better than say Journey's End, it was still a mess.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

The 400 page manifest. Have you actually ever read anything on this site before? Because we are not the 400 page supporters. Anything but.

For you to come here and dump your anti 9 hysterical women, Ianto-coffee bag crap because 'other communities are locked' on this comm is misplaced and insulting. Find some other place to vent. You are in the wrong place.

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

I'd never even heard of the stupid manifesto until a couple of weeks ago, and I could care less about Ianto's death. I am, on the other hand, a lifelong fan of the show that this post was actually about. You know, Doctor Who? AKA "Mothership."

Keep you BS Ianto wank away from my shiny old show. And take RTD with you, thanks.