tencrush | Haha SPOILERS DON'T READ

It's not impossible he was thinking of Gwen as well as Steven, Tosh, Owen, Estelle, etc. I say Gwen because she is very much unfinished business for him. I doubt it's just Steven, because I doubt the Doctor would necessarily fix that in the way he did. Steven plus, yeah. Steven just, not so much.

I agree that there was no real evidence that either relationship was that deep for him, but conversely there's no real evidence that it was only 'shag' or would only have been a shag (in the case of Gwen) either or that he was interested in shagging every member of his team. That's just personal interpretation because the writing was vague and subtexted or weak enough that if you want to you could chose your own adventure depending on your own biases.

Plus RTD's idea of what is 'romantic' and I use that term loosely and not really in the hearts and flowers way seems to be very different from what I, and apparently a lot of other people, consider 'romantic'. He seems to like the idea of the cool, aloof dominant figure and the needy, dependent figure as romantic model so it's possible in his mind we were supposed to see a 'love' story between Jack and Ianto in COE and it just got lost in translation and/or weak writing.

I don't think I've read Role Reversal. But I will, LOL. (Your best line ever is (and I may not be quoting it exactly)...I didn't want Tosh to become like you. That has to be the most Bastard!Jack ever, and I love it).

The biggest problem I have with RTD's writing is he can't do character development. When you look at TW, the personalities of everyone change episode to episode. And that's where the a lot of the fan infighting comes from. And where a lot of the 'fill in' in relationships comes from. Is Jack hot for Gwen? Maybe. Is Ianto more than a part-time shag? Maybe. Is Jack less of a bastard having traveled with the Dr? Maybe.

And I don't think that's due to RTD wanting to have ambiguity. I just don't think he cared enough to give the characters good coherent story arcs.

I honestly disagree. I haven't seen QAF UK, but based on my experience with Who, I feel like I got completely coherent arcs for Nine, Rose, Martha, Donna and Ten.

If anything is the problem with TW, it's not RTD, except to the extent that he didn't have enough hands-on as Producer to write a bible and tell everybody how it was going to be. That may make him a bad producer but not a bad writer per se. (And of course IMAO, they should have stuck with the original dead!Ianto concept and saved us all the pain.)

Clearly Jack is hot for Gwen-You could practically feel his erection in the gun lesson scene. Jack is a sexual bastard, but as a result of his travel with the Doctor he wants to be a hero. Those aren't contradictory. He might try to be less of a sexual bastard as well, but 100 years stuck in one place probably wore that out in a hurry.

And the fact that RTD chose to give us sexual Jack as the last image for Ten's Dr. Who, gives me a fairly good idea that he does see the character that way, AND CoE Jack is really Jack. (Hence my conviction that S4 Bigger and Better will have that Jack as well.)

I'm glad you've recovered. I know people who still have PTSD from their ship-war days in X-files and Alias fandoms.

Whereas I'd been terrified that all the J/I hype from GDL/Euros Lynn/JB etc leading into CoE was going to come true and destroy Jack forever, and was relieved when we got real!Jack backc so I could go on loving him the way I do.

Except the version of Jack that supposedly began COE wasn't really the guy who ended COE. He was supposedly 'broken' and grief stricken and feeling guilty. I assume we're at least supposed to think he's still 'grieving' otherwise he wouldn't have needed the Doctor to set him up he'd be running around finding his own boytoys. RTD wanted a 'broken' Jack which is why COE Jack had to suffer and suffer for his sins. So I suspect you're more likely to see a 'I'm looking for a redemption' Jack than the guy who showed up at the beginning of COE.

I never bought into the "broken" meme. He's done worse and he lost more. Sp no, not "grieving" either, certainly not for one temporary individual in his life, if anything for the one he left behind, and possibly for the chain of events starting with the Doctor's abandonment. That is the tragedy of his life; not any individual "relationship."

And if he's looking for redemption, it's still going to bring him back to Torchwood and eventually Gwen either in the bonded friendship/UST mode or to resolve the unexplained, unexplored love that RTD alluded to.

The fact that our last image of Jack is smiling and handsome, doesn't really lead to a whole gut-wrenching, soul-searching thing, although how much would the J/I shippers hate it if that happened...and it was Gwen he looked to for help?

Just finished watching part 2 here in the US. What I liked - Master, Wilf, Donna's head exploded but she lived. Liked that the Master is redeemed, but I wouldn't count on him staying that way. Actually, I think 11 could be a breath of fresh air. Perhaps we can start a campaign to get Moffat to declare a two season moratorium on angst.

Realizing that the Martha/Mickey pairing would have worked if they had been in CoE, I'm giving RTD a pass on that one so long as it was already filmed by the time they didn't renew. If RTD knew and didn't bother to rewrite 30 seconds of script, then again its lazy and a slap to the audience.

The list of what I didn't like is much longer.

Whole Time Lord Thing. I go back to the Tom Baker days and this still didn't make a whole lot of sense.

Star Wars rip offs. Unless it was supposed to be a tribute to Lucas (which I doubt cause RTD will tell you that nobody is as great as RTD) the space ships, the Wilf with the MF guns shooting as the missiles from earth, even the set up of the battle is vintage SW. Ditto on the Time Lord chamber and costumes. And the bar scene - even some of the same aliens (as well as reed instrument based music). WTF - total lack of imagination.

So much angst about dying. Hero-pain way over the top. What other Doctor met his regeneration with so little dignity?

And he saves the SJ's son, and Mickey and Martha, and I guess Donna (cause her head exploded but she lived) and Jack gets laid. That's right, as compensation for having Ianto and Steven die and losing any ties to his daughter, to the point where he cannot even stay on planet earth and be of support to his friend Gwen, he gets a piece of ass. Meh.

And just like TW - let's blow up the sets so no one can use my stuff.

I'm actually looking forward to the new season.

Well he may have done worst, but in terms of what we know from the show I'm hard pressed to think what. You'll have to enlighten me.

Nearly a hundred years with Torchwood, especially pre-2000, Time Agent period, including his stint as go-to torture guy and the war before that. The boy's got plenty of guilt on his plate, which is why he went all ballistic in the death scene.

"Realizing that the Martha/Mickey pairing would have worked if they had been in CoE, I'm giving RTD a pass on that one so long as it was already filmed by the time they didn't renew. If RTD knew and didn't bother to rewrite 30 seconds of script, then again its lazy and a slap to the audience."

I have to admit they do have chemistry, but it still felt kind of lazy like they were the only two left of the Doctor's crew so why not put them together so we don't have to both with separate goodbyes.

Which death scene are you talking about?

Ianto's.

Massive accumulated guilt especially regarding the death of yet another TW employee on his watch, plus residual abandonment issues relative to the Doctor.

'I'm glad you've recovered.'
Well the Ray Wars were before my time, but from what I've heard it was a long bloody war.

By the way, since you like Dief so much I while ago I made a Dief-centric picspam (scenes from all four seasons) contains a slight spoiler for The Wild Bunch.

Excellent. Thanks. I'm taking pictures of dogs this year and have so far posted two to my lj.

Here's the tag link.
http://karaokegal.livejournal.com/tag/dogs+2010

Oh those dogs are sooo cute!

Thanks. Stay tuned for more. :)

(I think we'll start the 2nd Due South disk tonight.)

'(I think we'll start the 2nd Due South disk tonight.) '
Neat. Hope you like it.

Poor Tom! A victim of offscreen murder! D:

and well, the last thing that RTD would give us would be Rose happy with Mickey, even though that's where she was in her life before she met the Doctor.

See, I still don't understand what any of that coffeboy nonsense has to do with Doctor Who. Because this post, and the last several, have been about Doctor Who, not Torchwood. I also haven't seen very much sympathy for that coffeeboy nonsense on this personal blog, so what you're saying just doesn't work.

Posts on a person's blog don't exist in a vacuum, just like Rusty's writing. Yes, her first line made some pissy comments about Jack's behavior, but I think you already know what she thinks about "saving Ianto," so why take it out of context?

You said it yourself, you are new to this, and mainly concerned with a single character. This is a blog post about a show that barely involves that character, and pretty much entirely concerned with the aspects of the show that have nothing to do with the character you care about. Why choose now to make a post like that? It seemed out of place, irrelevant, and made any accusations your were trying to make silly on the face of it. Seriously, Fight Club? You've lost all credibility.

Seriously, watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI

It's brilliant. There are so many germane points throughout. For both the recent spate of Doctor Whos, and even a bit with Torchwood.

Also, yes, that thing on his face. Ugh.

I'd never even heard of the stupid manifesto until a couple of weeks ago, and I could care less about Ianto's death. I am, on the other hand, a lifelong fan of the show that this post was actually about. You know, Doctor Who? AKA "Mothership."

Keep you BS Ianto wank away from my shiny old show. And take RTD with you, thanks.

That is somewhat disingenuous. Who/Torchwood/SJA are somewhat integrated at this point. The Doctor appeared in a SJA episode and TW has deliberately referenced the Doctor. Since the first line of the post was clearly about Jack and not any other aspect of the episode and since Tencrush is a fan of Ianto, I think it's not completely out of line to assume her ire was directed at RTD for providing Jack with a new sexual partner and that she thinks there was grief for Ianto. (Having seen the ep, I disagree.)

My response was not to the main-post, but to Teamharkness' mention of the RTD hate, which has been vociferous since CoE, and most virulent on the part of those who are pissed about the death of Ianto, and specifically their resentment over not getting the J/I they thought they were promised. (They're now planning to send letters to members of the Government including the statement that they were LIED TO.) Yeah, hon...fight club. In fact they keep reminding members of their locked community, not tell anyone what's going on in it. (Luckily I have peeps on the inside.)

Coffeeboy Nonsense IS relevant to Dr. Who because the coffe-baggers are currently enraged about the brief scene in The End of Time and take it as personal affront to them and their cause.

So relative to the first line of Tencrush's post and the specific comment that I entered the post to reply to...yeah, relavent.

Haha SPOILERS DON'T READ

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