Haha SPOILERS DON'T READ

[tencrush]

In Russell's world, bumsex with Russell Tovey pretty much fixes all your emo manpain, no matter how vast, yeah?

That's pretty faily right there. Not as faily as that thing with Martha and you know who, but still pretty fucking offensively faily. As was that thing with Donna. Wow, that's a lot of fucking fail to heap upon an awful lot of companions.

DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOUR ASS RUSSELL.

Also, did Simm just disappear, never to be mentioned again, or did it just seem that way?

Comments

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

I'm curious about this. Why is everyone who hasn't liked RTD's writing as of late considered a "hater?" And why does there seem to be this need to group people who criticize his work as though they are some sort of hive mind with an agenda?

I'm not accusing you, but it seems you're chiming in with someone who has that opinion, and I've been wanting to get a straight answer from someone who is familiar with the idea of discussion without using heaps of logical fallacies to "prove" points.

Many of us more than willingly admit liking his work in the past. I don't think you'd find a person on this blog post or in any DW or TW forum who would not thank RTD for bringing back DW and creating TW. That doesn't absolve him forever from making mistakes, or getting called on them. Some of us, me included, could even care less about Ianto's death. And still others love everything he's done, and appreciate the OTT nature of his recent work. Good for them too.

Isn't it equally possible that different people disliked different things for different reasons, but all like to commune with those who will hear them out and discuss their issues? Isn't that how people come together? Common interest? So, several people who already participated in tencrush's blog, or posted on GB, or wherever happen to come to a similar conclusion about something and want to talk about it. Why not treat these people as individuals and actually talk write responses to posts specifically if you have an issue with what someone says? No one here would fault you for it. I don't think anyone here is that kind of person, and you might find some healthy discussion. Isn't it healthier than assuming people who disagree with you are some sort of Mean Girls out to rob your fun?

It seems so easy to create this idea of a "Fight Club" mentality that sniggers in back rooms and plots to trash RTD because it's "so cool." It's ludicrous. You create these ideas because it's easier than dealing with the idea that lots of individuals might possibly disagree with you independently. The thing is, I'm sure lots of people agree with you too, and liked the episode, or loved CoE. I don't see anyone here going on about people who liked the episode as if they started some cabal to prop up RTD. No one here thinks that those who liked this episode, or CoE, are trying to be "cool" by having that opinion, and starting threads over at GB or on their own blogs to gush and squee with others over Rose's appearance and such. No one is running over to trash their opinions in the most dismissive and shallow way possible.

Isn't it possible that someone who grew up on a TV show might have some feelings about that TV show regardless of who is writing it? Whether it's a daytime soap or a night time sci-fi show. Isn't it possible that someone could be enamored with an actor for their talent - or otherwise - and care when they feel their character was mistreated? Isn't it possible that absolutely none of the issues have to do with proving RTD wrong, or creating a cult of hate around him? You all act like there aren't other factors or people involved in these issues. RTD does not exist in a vacuum. The shows' characters, actors, directors, and other writers also have fans that could care less about RTD and what he does next.

Other writers get criticized, and the critics aren't accused with such hyperbole and defensiveness. I just don't get it. Yes, he's created some beloved characters. The catch is that he's not the only one who went into those creations. There were actors, and costume designers, and directors, and in some cases other writers who some feel may have grasped those creations better than RTD. He also didn't create Doctor Who. Terry Nation did in 1963. There have been many writers, and actors, and costume designers, and directors before now that people have loved and hated. Loving Doctor Who, or the Whoniverse, has nothing to do with RTD. And loving Doctor Who, and good writing, has nothing to do with Ianto fucking Jones.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't get that thinking either. Presumably they also have things they dislike about a show, character etc. so are we to assume that they are just being "haters" and dismiss their opinions with equal condescension?

I also agree there are a lot of reasons why people might invest in a tv show and the writing might not always be the biggest part of that. Torchwood is a prime example of that for me. I thought the writing was kind of weak a lot of the time and gave the impression that the writers were forced to write in their own private vacuums with no real sense of what had gone on before or where the story was supposed to be going, but I thought the characters and actors and some of the ideas were interesting and had potential which might explain why Torchwood works better in fan fiction these days than it did as a show as a whole.It did have its moments, but moments only carry you so far.

As for RTD. I don't think he's brilliant or a genius (sorry RTD), but I don't think he's the worst writer evah. However, I do tend to like a lot the ideas behind his writing or at least what I think he's going for more than the actual writing, which can be strong in parts, but too often weak in others. I can't decide if he just loses focus after while, leaves everything to the last minute and so is forced to rush or just doesn't have the capabilities to follow through on the big ideas he obviously wants to explore. I suspect it's probably all of the above.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

OK, if you are one of those people who's rage or dislike of RTD has nothing to do with the Ianto situation, then I'm sorry and I apologize for the rile-up.

Howevere...there are locked communities, where people are reminded constantly not to share their views with the outside world (to no avail) that are completely and totally united in their hatred of RTD because of and only because of the events of CoE.

The self-same people have of late been EXTREMELY hypocritical, deciding that RTD is a bad writer and the scum of the earth, when they were previously heaping love upon him for the so-called canon-slash they thought they were getting.

In my case, I'm essentially only a New-Whovian and a Jack-centric one to boot, so yeah, I'm highly sensitive to that particular thread of the Who-niverse and that one point of the finale.

Which WAS the point addressed in the VERY FIRST LINE of tencrush's post, and by implication teamharkness's response.

I'm genuinely sorry that you feel RTD's work has harmed something you cherish. Meanwhile I've gotten four amazing years of Dr. Who, one good year of Torchwood, one so-so one, and a five-episode mini-series that in the end gave me back the character I'd fallen in love with (Jack) and the hope of future stories with that character.

As a one-issue voter, my approach to the Who-verse and RTD does tend to be a bit skewed and my reactions to certain criticism somewhat defensive.

However, you can't deny there is the equivalent of the VRWC that hates on the RTD for the very same issue.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind me jumping into your post, but did you ever get those Due South dvds for Christmas? What did think of the show?

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

I actually put them on my Netflix queue. We've finished the first one and just got in the 2nd. I posted about this at my LJ, thanking you by name, but I understand if that's not an LJ you want to friend or regularly read.

We love the show, the dog, the Benton/Ray dynamic, the humor, and the quirkiness. (Hubby has dubbed it "Touched by a Canadian.)

So thanks again for participating in Come As Your Not and turning me on to the show. Once we've finished more of the episodes, I'll go back and re-read the story.

Happy New Year!

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'We love the show, the dog, the Benton/Ray dynamic, the humor, and the quirkiness. (Hubby has dubbed it 'Touched by a Canadian'.)'
Touched by a Canadian, priceless.

Thanks for mentioning me. We may have our differences when it comes to TW, but we really can love a quirky Canadian show.

'We love the show, the dog, the Benton/Ray dynamic, the humor, and the quirkiness. (Hubby has dubbed it "Touched by a Canadian.) '
Cool. If you ever do anything Due South related or want to check out the fandom, ds_noticeboad is a good general Due South posting com.

'Once we've finished more of the episodes, I'll go back and re-read the story.'
Just so you know, Ray Kowalski (the Ray in the story and the one in my icon) doesn't show up until the third season.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

Right! From TV Tropes, I understand that there's sort of a "Darin switch" in the third season, even though it's technically a different character.

At the moment, I'm trying to cut down on my fanfic reading (and writing) because I need to focus on the novel I'm writing so I probably won't be delving into the fic, but I'll keep the link should I have the craving.

Quirky shows are always fun. It's really a pity that Torchwood put so many people in an unfortunate position, because it should have been a fun quirky everybody screws everybody show, instead of a bastion of hard-core ship-warring.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Right! From TV Tropes, I understand that there's sort of a 'Darin switch' in the third season, even though it's technically a different character.'
That's it. What happened was Due South was canceled after the second season, but then they picked up for a third season. By the time DS has been picked up David (the guy who played Ray) had already gotten another job. Ray Kowalski really is a different character from Ray Vecchio (right down to the way he interacts with Fraser); I don't like I would have liked RayK very much if he had been just a blond version of RayV.

At the moment, I'm trying to cut down on my fanfic reading (and writing) because I need to focus on the novel I'm writing so I probably won't be delving into the fic, but I'll keep the link should I have the craving.
Opps. I gave you the wrong com name. It should be ds_noticeboard.

'Quirky shows are always fun. It's really a pity that Torchwood put so many people in an unfortunate position, because it should have been a fun quirky everybody screws everybody show, instead of a bastion of hard-core ship-warring.'
I know. I pretty much left TW because the shipper wars got so bad. Fandom is supposed to be my happy place. Granted Due South did have it's share of shippers wars back in the day known as Ray Wars; apparently, if you liked RayV you couldn't like RayK (or vise versa) and Mounties help you if you were a Ray/Ray shipper. *rolls eyes* Happily the Ray Wars are little more than a distant, painful memory *knock on wood*

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you've recovered. I know people who still have PTSD from their ship-war days in X-files and Alias fandoms.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Well all fandoms have their extremes that's just a by-product of the www and its unfiltered access. I generally don't regard that as proof that just because there are people who act that way that everyone or even the majority of people who like/dislike a particular character, writer etc. are therefore of the same mind. As has already been pointed out people like/ dislike things for a variety of reasons and there are a lot of valid reasons for disliking RTD's work that don't relate to a particular character death. His work certainly isn't above criticism. In terms of writing that applies more to Who to Torchwood since he only wrote two episodes of Torchwood, but since he's the producer/creator and by his own admission has a big hand in the decision making on the show if he's going to happily take credit for the good then he has to be willing to take responsibility for the bad.

Most of the criticisms of his work I tend to share and I think unfortunately these last few Who episodes highlighted some of his worst habits and Torchwood was always, unfortunately more about the character potential and moments than anything else and while I didn't hate COE for me if that was a reflection of the show at its best then I can't say I'll regret moving on. And unlike you Jack's 'progression/regression'? and in fact most of the Torchwood stuff was the least involving aspect of COE for me, a couple of moments excepted. Even the grandchild sacrificing was more emotive inducing than a truly emotional moment for me.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

I agree that no one is above criticism or reproach. And of course if it had all gone the other way in CoE and TEOT, I'd be the one building shrines (to real!Jack) and making snide comments about RTD's personality, love-life, weight etc.

[tencrush]

Don't forget that thing on his face.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

There's a couple of them arent there? Are the coffee-baggers even on about that? Stay classy, coffee-baggers.

I know you are not a coffee-bagger, and have expressed your concerns and dislike about their extremism. I highly respect you for that.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Well everyone vents in their own way and if that's their pleasure then so be it. That kind of wallowing doesn't interest me which is why I wouldn't frequent there even if they weren't closed any more than I'd waste my time frequenting rabid anti- Ianto boards since that doesn't particularly interest me either.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't bother me, beyond the fact that they have expressed border-line violent sentiments and started their harrassment Twitter campaigns. Also some people I care very much about are stuck in the hot-house over there and I feel like there's no way to do an intervention for them and remind them that there is life outside the Fight Club. :(

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

Seriously, watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI

It's brilliant. There are so many germane points throughout. For both the recent spate of Doctor Whos, and even a bit with Torchwood.

Also, yes, that thing on his face. Ugh.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

Those videos are pretty funny. I don't even remember much that happened in Phantom Menace. Maybe that's why. And yeah if you have to explain in a post interview what was supposed to be going on in a scene then as far as I'm concerned you've failed as a writer. And I agree with his comment about tie-in books.They should be there as a side dish or a post meal coffee/ brandy not to make up for a scriptwriter's inability to write a decent, coherent script.

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

See, I still don't understand what any of that coffeboy nonsense has to do with Doctor Who. Because this post, and the last several, have been about Doctor Who, not Torchwood. I also haven't seen very much sympathy for that coffeeboy nonsense on this personal blog, so what you're saying just doesn't work.

Posts on a person's blog don't exist in a vacuum, just like Rusty's writing. Yes, her first line made some pissy comments about Jack's behavior, but I think you already know what she thinks about "saving Ianto," so why take it out of context?

You said it yourself, you are new to this, and mainly concerned with a single character. This is a blog post about a show that barely involves that character, and pretty much entirely concerned with the aspects of the show that have nothing to do with the character you care about. Why choose now to make a post like that? It seemed out of place, irrelevant, and made any accusations your were trying to make silly on the face of it. Seriously, Fight Club? You've lost all credibility.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

That is somewhat disingenuous. Who/Torchwood/SJA are somewhat integrated at this point. The Doctor appeared in a SJA episode and TW has deliberately referenced the Doctor. Since the first line of the post was clearly about Jack and not any other aspect of the episode and since Tencrush is a fan of Ianto, I think it's not completely out of line to assume her ire was directed at RTD for providing Jack with a new sexual partner and that she thinks there was grief for Ianto. (Having seen the ep, I disagree.)

My response was not to the main-post, but to Teamharkness' mention of the RTD hate, which has been vociferous since CoE, and most virulent on the part of those who are pissed about the death of Ianto, and specifically their resentment over not getting the J/I they thought they were promised. (They're now planning to send letters to members of the Government including the statement that they were LIED TO.) Yeah, hon...fight club. In fact they keep reminding members of their locked community, not tell anyone what's going on in it. (Luckily I have peeps on the inside.)

Coffeeboy Nonsense IS relevant to Dr. Who because the coffe-baggers are currently enraged about the brief scene in The End of Time and take it as personal affront to them and their cause.

So relative to the first line of Tencrush's post and the specific comment that I entered the post to reply to...yeah, relavent.

[tencrush]

Umm, no, actually, I was talking about Jack's emo manpain in the first line, not particularly his grief over Ianto, I think CoE pretty much made it clear that Jack wasn't particularly attached to Ianto, so that's not what I assumed he was brooding about in the bar. I assumed he was brooding about whatever it was that drove him into space, which primarily would be losing his daughter and killing his grandson with the blood and that. And the idea that a new cock to play with will fix that for ya is still one I find pretty offensive. Even if Jack IS immortal and has suffered a lot of loss, the idea that he uses people and sex to get over his immortal manpain, particularly the using people part, makes him completely unlikeable in my eyes.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

You're right. I'm wrong. I'm sorry.

Given the craziness in the air *cough cough 400 page report,* it's still hard for me to read anything that seems hostile to RTD/references Capt. Jack without seeing it through the prism of the Ianto situation.

I appreciate that you are now on board with the real!Jack believers, even if you find that makes Jack unlikeable. To me, it makes him the Jack I fell in love with, who I was prepared to mourn if things had gone the other way.

I think the idea that a new shag of any gender or species as an acceptable way to relieve pain (be it man/woman/other) is very Jack, as we were given him from the very first episode. He's always used people...that's the first thing we saw him doing, presumably both shagging Algy for fun and being perfectly willing to boff Rose both because he wanted her and because it would help the con.

But regarding the specific issue of assuming you were attributing the moping (which as far as I could tell was actually non-existant until the Doctor showed up) to Ianto's death, mea culpa.

[coldwater1010.livejournal.com]

I think it makes him seem shallow and certainly makes his daughter's distrust of him that much more understandable. For a moment in COE I thought she might be being unfair to him and by extension Steve by not wanting him around, but apparently her assessment of him was right on the nose and she should have trusted her earlier instincts.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

No argument. He'll shag anything "if it's gorgeous enough." When his daughter said "You are a bastard," I thought damn skippy he is. Bastard!Jack is what I was afraid we were going to lose. And I'm convinced that Lucy heard her mother say it many, many times, because I honestly doubt that he was faithful to her mother or Victorian Wife or even possibly Estelle, although that might have ended before he could start looking around again.

Jack Harkness is a bastard. That's what Moffett gave us. And those of us who never had illusions about him or wanted him to be in a schmoopy-ooopy ship, love him for it.

It just amazes me how much of the CoE hate is framed as "Jack was out of character" when to me, it was Jack being exactly in character.

[tencrush]

I never bought that that was the characterisation they wanted for the "hero" of Torchwood, but apparently it was. I let a lot of people attempt to convince me that there was more depth to Jack/Ianto than we were seeing on screen, primarily because the Ianto thing bothered me because Jack was his boss, I find the boss/subordinate thing really quite squicky in and of itself, doubly so with Jack because he's less emotionally involved than the subordinate in question. If he hadn't been Ianto's boss, the whole thing wouldn't really have bugged me one way or the other.

Regarding Doctor Who, I really would have preferred that scene to have not involved a human man, but something from the "other" category.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

I'm all for the "other." Jack is omni-sexual---let's see it action. That would be a definite wish for S4.