I was just fucking witcha...

[tencrush]

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

Comments

[xwingace]

No, that actually really makes a lot of sense.

It's actually what upsets me a lot about the perceptions I come across, in fic but also in remarks in (mostly ffrants) discussions, that people really do seem to see Jack as some sort of slut.

I still don't see it. I see him as flirty, sure. I even see him as into/up for something, anything -- but pretty much only *if the other party wants it*, and even then he's a lot more aware of the time and the place for it than he might otherwise let on.

XWA

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

even then he's a lot more aware of the time and the place for it than he might otherwise let on.

Exactly! In Sleeper remember he made the hockey comment to the PC and it was strictly a toss off and get the guy out of the room? Tosh asked him "Making friends?" and he just replied "no".

[glorfindelghost.livejournal.com]

I think they have always trod that fine line with Jack and how he relates to Ianto: Look at the kiss in 'Cyberwoman', for example, which bothers me to this day. Because if thats NOT any form of magical glowy Jack CPR then his is essentially just macking on an unconscious junior employee. That sticks out to me as an anomaly though - i've never thought of Jack as someone to abuse his position.

I think i'm clearly less fond of Jack than you are because i'd never consider him very heroic - He's fairly self-centred and hedonistic. However, I don't believe that Jack's ego would allow him to use his position as boss to get what he wants - Jack considers himself attractive and charming enough to get what he wants, pulling the boss card would be cheating.

I do think that the writing team may have been aware that they needed to level the playing field so to speak with Jack and Ianto and i'm firmly of the belief that that was the intention behind 'Fragments' - because instead of being innocent, vulnerable secretary Ianto became a fairly devious young man who was able to con Jack Harkness. He became pretty formidable in his own right - nobody's toy, nobody's fool.

[tencrush]

I'm not that hugely fond of Jack, and I worry sometimes that a lot of the spin I put on his relationship with Ianto boils down to me, in my head, trying to make him more likeable than the guy we're being shown.

[louiex.livejournal.com]

You've made some terrific points here and its really been boiled down to the most irksome factor which is the matter of the individual perception. Jack's almost like a Rorschach test in that everyone can see him in a different way merely because the writers -being many and not of one solid mindset- all have their own pov of him. James Moran saw him as the determined, almost over the edge, serious leader while Catherine Tregenna has him as this lost, love-seeking wounded hero. There are so many POVs just coming out of the gate of Jack that for the viewer to settle on one alone is hard enough.

Secondly, starting the Jack and Ianto relationship buried in ambiguity as they did in S1 made it seem like a dirty little secret rather than chock-full of the h/c that it might have been in reality. I want- as a viewer and fan and writer myself- to believe that Jack wouldn't abuse the canon history of super PTSD that Ianto ought to/has shown glimmers of having or held their relationship over Ianto's head in any way that could be 'wrong' or questionable. Because that is what anti-gay protesters say ARE gay relationships and that is the last thing Jack/Ianto should be upholding; the flawed perception of what could be a supportive and healthy -despite their die at any moment job- relationship. It has always bothered me why they're not more up front with it considering it involves the MAIN character of the show, why we've never seen his inside POV of things with Ianto but we know almost more about his back and forth with Gwen instead. Which implies that the writers are at odds with Gwen and Ianto while the characters, from what we've seen, have little issue with each other and Jack smack in the middle of them.

Ambiguity can only be a tool for so long before it just ends up hurting a character by leaving gaping holes like this that can only become interpreted as flaws.

Another random note, but Ianto himself gets a lot of sexual imagery aimed at him by more than just Jack. Captain John, Adam, Owen's teasing are all from a negative place which would make sense to balance it out with positive reinforcements from Jack that not all of teh ghey on TW is BAD GAY. But we, as an audience, lack the scenes that could easily mend that. Little things, touches of shoulders or hands, even Jack spending a half-second to show concern about Ianto's well-being at one point or another would fix this whole debate in seconds! Its one that's fixed in the books easily enough (see the last chapter of 'Hidden' which had about 0 J/I until that point but because of Jack's chosen actions it wasn't necessarily something he'd do with Owen, the other male character around if Owen and Ianto's situations were switched) and it seems a shame that it can't be fixed in the show with just MINOR tweekings. What's the fear of making it seem like Jack cares about someone beyond his general team love who's NOT Gwen?

[tencrush]

Another random note, but Ianto himself gets a lot of sexual imagery aimed at him by more than just Jack. Captain John, Adam, Owen's teasing are all from a negative place which would make sense to balance it out with positive reinforcements from Jack that not all of teh ghey on TW is BAD GAY. But we, as an audience, lack the scenes that could easily mend that. Little things, touches of shoulders or hands, even Jack spending a half-second to show concern about Ianto's well-being at one point or another would fix this whole debate in seconds!
Yes! Yes yes yes. it's not that hard to do, it would only take a few scenes, some precious seconds of screentime, and the whole thing would be so much less ambiguous. You make a valid point about the shit Ianto gets thrown at him from other sides. Especially the stuff from Owen, it seems to come from such a BAD GAY place, that I just yearn for one or two touches to fix that skewed perspective. It boils down to Russell talking the talk but not walking the walk as far as I'm concerned, and just not putting quite enough effort in to show this relationship as NOT DIRTYBADWRONG. The way it's been presented, it NEEDS that acknowledgement that it ISN'T dirtybadwrong in order to stand up as a proper relationship, and in order for Jack to stand up to scrutiny as a proper progressive role model.

[quinn222.livejournal.com]

The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to.

You aren't wrong to be annoyed by that. The thing is, why do people think that? There has been nothing at all in canon to imply that Jack is that kind of guy, or even that he ever was that kind of guy.

Seriously, in The Empty Child or any of his other Who eps he was certainly seen as flirty and fun and promiscuous but not as a user. He could have had Rose is a heartbeat (I'm convinced) but other than flirting with her he never really pushed it at all. He could have had Gwen, never went there. He was in the position of life or death pretty much over Tosh, never went there. All the indications are that while he flirted with Ianto the aggressor in the situation was Ianto, not Jack. If Small Worlds was their first sexual encounter we know for a fact that it was Ianto who initiated. If, as Gareth said he thinks, they were involved before Cyberwoman then from what we've seen it was also Ianto who inititated then as well. At the least he let Jack know he was interested.

I can't see anything in the writing to lead people to the idea that Jack is someone who would abuse his position. In fact, the only one Jack has been seen to have an actual sexual relationship with over both shows is Ianto. We also know about a five year relationship that he had with John. So yeah, he's admitted to plenty of casual encounters but so what? We've seen Owen, Tosh and Gwen all with multiple sexual partners. Only Ianto and Jack have had only each other.

The thing that gets me even more are the fanfic writers who write about Jack pretty much forcing Ianto into sex in the immediate aftermath of Cyberwoman because "you need this". Ok, that's not even harrassment. That's rape. And if someone truly believes that Jack Harkness is a rapist then I don't know what show they are watching because it's not the same one I'm watching.

[tencrush]

You aren't wrong to be annoyed by that. The thing is, why do people think that? There has been nothing at all in canon to imply that Jack is that kind of guy, or even that he ever was that kind of guy.
I guess what that boils down to, for me, is that the problem is that there is NOT ENOUGH in canon to suggest that Jack is NOT that kind of guy, and the easiest way to fix that in canon would be to show that he's not that kind of guy within the confines of his relationship with Ianto, and they're not doing enough to show us that, apart from one line in TtLM. And that's where my anger comes from, from the fact that you could have gone to the loo during TtLM, missed that one line and come out of this show with that perception of Jack, as a guy who uses omnisexuality as an excuse to stick it in as many people as possible, intact. It's not good enough.

[rm.livejournal.com]

That makes a lot of sense. Jack has to be a decent guy or the show doesn't work because the show is about his (and everyone who work's for him) struggle for redemption.

I'm not sure what the Jack/Ianto deal is, but:
- it can be casual and have integrity
- it can be really serious and not be the most important thing in their lives
- it could be something entirely in-between
- the jealousy/territory issues don't have to be about sex and love: there's a lot of mentorship stuff going on too (I actually thing Jack and Ianto are a lot alike and part of the dynamic is Ianto wanting/needing guidance about how to manage his own personal power and Jack being both someone who loves to take care of people and a bit of a narcissist).
- taking anything any of the characters say at face value is not useful.
- the interpretation of Ianto through a feminizing lens annoys the shit out of me -- I actually think Jack acts in a more feminine manner most of the time (he flirts like a woman; it's fascinating to me).
- also just because Jack is shitty at communicating doesn't mean non-monogamy is bad -- I loathe interpretations of the show that are about how the solution to the Jack/Ianto situation is monogamy. For all we know they are being monogamous, but regardless, that doesn't seem to be the problem -- it's the information balance that's all screwed up.

[kakareen.livejournal.com]

"He flirts like a woman."? Huh. Could you dip into that a bit? I have a hard time understanding societies view of gender-roles, I'd like some detail so I can know what you mean....

....it WOULD help explain why I, as a lesbian, am still somehow attracted to him....

....then again, it IS Captain Jack Harkness/John Barrowman....

[adafrog.livejournal.com]

ITA Jack is not a slut. He's open to new experiences, but he has shown over and over again that he is loyal to a fault, and values the connections he has.

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

Now that makes sense. I understand what you are saying.

Given that, I don't have an issue with it. I think it's a lot to ask that every single person out there 'get' Jack Harkness as a character. I don't think some people have the life experience to understand or deal with something like him. No matter how well he is presented, there will always be people who believe that about him. Even if they oversimplify him and take away a lot of the nuance and mystery that make him so appealing, I don't think very many of those people who still don't get that fact will.

I like louiex's Rorschach analogy, but I don't think it's a product of uneven writing. I think it's a product of the character that existed even in Moffat's original story. Jack is a an ink blot test on how people see society. Some people need labels and ritual and tradition to get by. They need to see things in black and white. No matter how fascinated they are with people like Jack, they can never 'get' him.

I think the same thing applies to Ianto, in a way. I think that a lot of what I'm hearing about him has more to do with the fact that the character is male instead of female. If Ianto were a woman I think people would be able to see how strong and able - and devious - he is. But because he's a man, who dares to sleep with and fall in love with a man, and dares to cry on screen, I think there are just people who will only see him as a woobie and a victim because they don't have the experience or the depth to understand that a man can have both qualities. It's a weird sort of reverse sexism.

[shadowpiranha.livejournal.com]

Sorry to barge in, I saw your post on torch_wood, I hope you don't mind me saying my two cents on this.

I don't think you're wrong at all. Regarding Jack and Ianto, I see them as fuck buddies more than anything else. There's no real romance there, but it's not a power trip type of relationship either, I don't think. I think they enjoy each other's company, in a sexual way, yes, but the relationship between the two is of equals, not boss/employee, despite Ianto insisting in calling him sir (I personally think he does it for fun,in a kinky sort of way, as a private joke) - and that might throw people off. But to me, above all, I think of Jack/Ianto as a sexual relationship between equals, not a domination/subordination type of thing at all! I think they like each other, they're utterly attracted to each other, but there's nothing one has that the other lacks. Jack is definitely not abusing his position as a boss for screwing around with Ianto after-hours, not the way I see it, anyway.

[tencrush]

I don't have as much of a problem with that interpretation, though I still think there has been ample evidence onscreen that Ianto has FEELINGS for Jack, from his Brokeback Coat moment, to his "meaning" line in Adam, and I think that if Jack is approaching it from a fuckbuddy angle that is STILL just a little bit icky from Jack's POV, because I think Jack is WELL AWARE of the fact that Ianto has feelings for him. If you haven't seen any evidence of any emotional investment from Ianto, then that's fair enough, but I have.

[theninth.livejournal.com]

One of the things that bothers me about the whole situation (and the "but Jack LOOOoOOOOooOOOVES GWEN" not-so-sub-text) is the fact that it enforces the concepts that "Bisexuality is a phase and it just takes the right opposite-sex person to 'cure' it", and the "gay sex is just sex and it has to be heterosexual to be Love".

[tencrush]

That's the men are for fucking and women are for commitment attitude that this reading of Jack unwittingly supports, yeah. It's a foolish oversight from a team that's supposed to be putting such a progressive view on show for the audience.

[crunknwj.livejournal.com]

i too came from torch_wood and wanted to weigh in on this :)

i too agree that jack is not the sort of guy that's going to abuse his power of being in charge to get ianto to sleep with him. while jack can sometimes have some interesting ways of going about things, and can be a down right bastard whenever he has to be, he would never EVER use any of the members of his team for his own gain. you can tell from all of the past instances that he loves everyone on the team unconditionally, no matter what they've done (and done to him) in the past. if he didn't love them, then he never would've forgiven ianto for lisa, owen for shooting him, etc etc.

now, i do believe that jack is still a big old flirt that would do anything with a hole. but a lot of his talk is just that...talk. i don't think he would ever act on anything without the consent of the other person/people or put them in an uncomfortable situation. he knows where to draw the line and step back. but i also think that a lot of his flirtatious attitude depends on the company he's in. whenever he's with the doctor is when we see the most of his flirtatious side. whenever he first returned to torchwood, he tried (with the naked wrestling comment) but he didn't get the reaction he was expecting. we really didn't see him being a playful flirt again till reset, whenever martha came in. i think that around the team, he's business before pleasure and tries to keep a tight upper lip to make sure that he gets the respect from the team he deserves. throw people outside of the team into the mix, then all of that goes out the window.

now, when it comes to the jack/ianto relationship, i believe that they are mostly in a fuck buddy sort of relationship. however, ianto definitely has feelings for jack, and jack, deep down, has feelings for ianto. but for the sake of keeping things in order around the Hub, they keep it strictly to sex, some off hand flirting, and maybe even a date every so often. the only way i could ever see an actual relationship working for the two of them would be if one of them leaves torchwood. with neither of them are going to do, so things are going to be casual, no matter how much TPTB (read: the fangirls) want it to happen.

they love each other, but they don't LOVE each other. maybe deep down, but i don't think they would ever come out and admit it. at least, not jack anyway. they're both in a comfortable relationship with what they have going right now, and as long as they're enjoying themselves, then there shouldn't be any need to put any type of label on what they are.

they just are.

(i've obviously put lots of thought into this lol. i'm playing ianto in an rpg and me and the jack-mun had a big old in depth conversation about their relationship and how we interpreted it so that's my story and i'm sticking to it lol.)

[kiltfriction.livejournal.com]

When it comes to Jack/Ianto people are seeing different things because we're getting mixed signals. It's as simple as that. There is no overall direction for stories or characters. That leaves different writers putting their own spin on it and the actors improvising with what they have.

While plurality of views is always a good thing from fans Torchwood as a series is suffering from not knowing what its own view is. The Jack/Ianto splinter groups are just one manifestation of a lack of a Head Writer.

[tencrush]

Oh, definitely, I think everyone's in agreement on that. The show needs a bible and head writer. I just don't think TPTB realise how detrimental that differing approach and that lack of structure is to the characters, and to that alleged liberal, progressive stance on sexuality they keep patting themselves on the back for showing us.

[sage-theory.livejournal.com]

I really think that what readings of Jack/Ianto as just a sex thing tend to forget is what Jack *hasn't* done.

I mean, he's flirted and pinched a few bottoms, but notice that he HASN'T gone after Gwen or anyone else in a major way. He's had a snog or two. Considering Jack's usual nature, for him to keep it in his pants that was says a lot for how he must feel for Ianto.

Plus, he sort of forgave the whole Cyberwoman thing. And for Jack, that was probably a big, big big deal.

I think Jack loved the Doctor and Rose equally and fervently, so at that point in canon, he believes that Rose died in Canary Wharf, and to forgive Ianto for harboring the enemy that killed ONE OF HIS BEST FRIENDS EVAR is a big, big deal.

Also? I know this is going to sound a bit silly since this is all Stuff Wot Is Made Up In Other People's Heads, but Jack is a 51st century guy and we're 21st century, so what True Love means to him might come off as strange to us. Especially since we're still heavily invested in traditions like marriage and raising kids and buying houses and whatnot.

I also think people who read it as just sex tend to be shortsighted on how tricky and subtle dominant/submissive type relationships can be. Or on who's dominant.

Because the thing is? I can completely believe that Ianto is sort of the invisible command. After all, he basically has a hand in every pie, knows where all the bodies are buried, and I just think sometimes he scoots aside and lets Jack lay down his thing because it keeps order. But I also think that if you needed something done right and done quickly within Torchwood, you'd go to Ianto first, not Jack.

Notice that Ianto was willing to shoot Owen to keep him from doing something spectacularly fucktarded with the rift machine. Ianto obviously is capable of laying down the law and enforcing it. And I think it's telling that Ianto WASN'T the last to stay by Jack's side when they all thought he was dead. Because Ianto probably realized that there were THINGS THAT NEEDED DOING.

Because Jack, also, I think, is kind of lazy as commanders go and only seeks to have full command of a situation when he's engaged or really worried or feels obligated.

I don't think that Jack would ever just use someone as a sextoy, because even though he does get around, notice that sex is just so *joyful* for him. It's not abusive, it's not using the person. Jack really does like and enjoy the people he chooses to be with, and he wants to please them. Notice he kept in touch with his ex-executioners (!). He wants them to be happy.

If his wandering nature comes from anything, I think it's a fear of what happens if he can't make his partners happy anymore, when things get too serious. So he tries to leave quietly and make someone else happy.

Think of him less as a slut and more of a sexual Father Christmas.

[tencrush]

I agree with you, I don't think any of these things either. I'm just trying to explain why it bugs me that there is room in the story for people to think these things. These things should be made slightly more unambiguous when it comes to Jack.

[stopwatch-plz.livejournal.com]

If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

Yes.

That's been the major feeling with me, too. That, and so many people seem to think he's this "out for himself/doesn't care about anyone elses feelings" character which i think is, well, kinda dangerous, in a way.
Especially - and speaking from a personal slant here - I'm fucking fed-up with so much anti-bi crap going on, from the gay and straight communities, that I'm kinda pissed off that this is the first time we could have a good representation in TV media, but it's all gone sideways.

[tencrush]

Mmm. It's using onmisexuality, which is their sci-fi slant on bisexuality, as an excuse for someone having their cake and eating it, or sleeping around, or whatever. It's not very helpful in promoting a healthy view of bisexuality if you allow so much room for the omnisexual guy's motivations to be interpreted in this way.

[crabby-lioness.livejournal.com]

You're angry because other people's understanding of the characters is not as nuanced as your own.

Specifically, you're getting angry because teenaged boy's understanding of the characters is not as nuanced as your own. In short, you're getting angry at teenaged boys for being stupid idiots.

While I understand the impulse, that's like getting angry at the rain for falling or babies for crying. It's a fact of life that only time can change.

[tencrush]

I'm not angry. I'm perfectly happy. The sun's out, my baby's standing and impressing me with her skillz, my boy's not spent the day whining at me, which is what he usually does. Life's great. :)

I'm just trying to explain why I WAS angry, and it's not specifically because teenage boys are stupid idiots, it's because I feel there are too many holes left by the writing for teenage boys to fill up with stupid idiocy. I wish one or two of those holes had been filled with sensibleness.

[crystalshard.livejournal.com]

You're making perfect sense. Jack's not the kind of guy who'd use someone: if he had been, he'd have been sleeping with Gwen. I'm not trying to say anything about Gwen, but she was confused about her dual feelings for Rhys and Jack. It would have been so easy for Jack to push things over the line . . . but he didn't. Jack doesn't use people. He flirts, sure but it seems like it's always others who take the final step past flirting. Jack waves the banner saying "Here I am, I'm available," but doesn't actively pursue things.

There's also the bit you mentioned about power dynamics. Jack isn't always in control - in fact, for all the Captain arrogance, he really does look to others to check his behaviour. He hires Gwen purely so that she can give him some perspective and bring him back to the line he wants to walk. He asks Ianto if he shows off in 'Meat', and accepts Ianto's assessment without questioning it. And if you look at the pterodactyl scene in 'Fragments', then you'll see the power dynamics shifting so fast it's as if you're at a tennis match. Jack may have to be the Captain at Torchwood, but that's no guide as to how he is off duty. In fact, I don't think we've ever seen him away from Torchwood when he's not on duty to some extent, so there's no real baseline.

Hope that made sense!

[rhianona]

One of the things that does tend to annoy me about the interpretation of Jack's character is that it presumes he has not grown as a person. Most people assume that he is the *same* as he was in Bad Wolf/Parting of Ways. Now if Ianto had met Jack in lets say Boom Town, then yes, I think we would see a more "sex toy", let's have fun type relationship. I also don't think it would have been more than a few nights at most before Jack went back to the Doctor and Rose. But Jack has been on Earth for a while by the time we have Everything Changes. I can't recall off the top of my head when we learn exactly when Jack ended up back on Earth. But even disregarding the amount of time he's spent on Earth, taking the slow path, without the Doctor and Rose, there were some rather major events that had an impact on Jack's life that we knew from the start of TW: (1) dying and coming back to life in Parting of Ways; (2) then being abandoned by the Doctor and Rose; (3) far in the future, on a station full of dead people and Daleks; and (4) apparently with the new ability to never die. And that's just from the Parting of Ways! somehow, Jack had to go back in time, which means he had to get off the station in some manner. This had to be a very traumatic time for him and I can't help but think it changed how he viewed life. The Doctor and Rose had already changed him, just by traveling with them. But if you notice, he is still quite light hearted in Parting of Ways. By Everything Changes, he's still quite fun, but carries a lot of darkness with him.

Now yes, Jack is very charming and a flirt. And I think he would flirt with anyone at anytime - that's just his personality, and a defining characteristic of him - the writers for TW can't completely change him from the outset because then, what's the point of having a character introduced in DW become the star of a spin off - especially if you want it to be successful? But, I also think he takes relationships seriously and understands that he is living in the 21st C not the 51st C. I also think he is enough of a leader to realize that merely using Ianto for sex is not going to help his team - and he cares for his team, very deeply (even if that came clear more in season 2 than 1. There are however, episodes in season 1 that indicate how deeply he cares: Cyberwoman, TKKS, Countrycide.) He's not going to mess with the dynamics unless he really wants something more than just a sex toy. While Ianto may be more convenient than say, going out on the pull in terms of being right there, he is not convenient in the emotional sense. There is a lot of emotional baggage between them that could seriously mess up the dynamics of the team. It is one reason I think Ianto made the first move on Jack. Yes, there was attraction from the start, and I think Jack made it known to Ianto that he would be interested - but that is all.

Now having said that, and having rewatched KKBB just last night, I do think the writers have messed up a bit in the way they have portrayed the Gwen/Jack relationship. I think one reason for questioning just how committed Jack is to Ianto is the scene where Jack finds out Gwen is engaged: he is utterly shocked. That we don't have a private scene between Ianto and Jack before then, does leave open to interpretation whether Jack would have actually asked Ianto out on a date if Gwen were not engaged. OTOH, when Jack left, Gwen had just led the rebellion against him (facilitated by Owen) all in order to save Rhys, so I don't think he would necessarily have assumed Gwen was available, even without the engagement ring. Gwen is also allowed to get away with a lot of things that it is not clear Jack would allow others to do. It would have been nice had there been a Ianto-centric episode that had given us more insight into who is he now and how he is with Jack, rather than the glimpses we are forced to parse together from the different episodes.

[tencrush]

I think the Jack/Gwen scene in KKBB was pretty much the weirdest of the series. I don't think ANYONE really understood what that scene was trying to say. I still to this day don't get his shock, nor her "no one else will have me", the whole scene just makes me go WTF??

[takenatwork.livejournal.com]

I think another confusing thing about the writing/filming of the show is that Jack's 51st childhood didn't look very different - Mum, Dad, 2 kids. They didn't look very omnisexual, although it was only a glimpse. But it all adds to the confusion.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

The problem with Jack/Ianto can be sumed up in one word - ambiguous, ambiguous, ambiguous. We know that Ianto has a strong attachment to Jack - regardless of whether or not it's romantic attachment - but Jack's feelings are not at all clear.

Heck, RTD could tell us straight that whilst Ianto's falling in love with Jack, Jack isn't falling in love with Ianto and I'd find that easier to handle than all of this ambiguous stuff. We know Rhys loves Gwen. We know Rhys worships the ground that Gwen walks on. We know Rhys fell in love with Gwen the minute he first laid eyes on her. We know Rhys thinks that Gwen is "a bloody hero" And the writers and producers wanted us to know that too. So why aren't things so clear cut with Jack and Ianto or indeed Jack and Gwen? Probably because the writers want to keep their options open.

However, I don't think the ambiguous nature of the Janto relationship is going to continue into S3, so I'm not too worried about that at this point in time. :) We'll get some answers one way or another I'm sure.

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry about being anonymous by the way, I don't have an account as I have no use for it normall, but really wanted to comment on this.

I think that a lot of the relationship is played out in subtext. The chemistry between them has been palpable from the start and there has been a lot of lovely body language moments, really something in each episode. As for Jack, he has a smile that he only uses for Ianto. His body language relaxes when he is alone with him. Also he can't take his eyes of him, and does often gaze in quite a dreamy way. While I love a bit of porn, and nice snogs, I think declarations and too much happy coupledom tend to be the death of a relationship in drama.

In KKBB Jack makes it clear that he has been thinking about Ianto and taking it further while away, that whole scene is lovely, and full of subtext. I almost feel that the Jack/Gwen dynamic is problematic due to the performances, much as I hate to say it, the problem with the engagement ring scene is an overlay of histrionics, I think it is easy to read too much into it that isn't necessarily there. It is a Chibnall ep, and he has made it clear that he sees the relationship between Jack/Ianto as romantic ( he said so quite clearly in the Fragments confidential).

I'm glad they don't have a bible. It has allowed Ianto to be developed, it has allowed Rhys to be developed, the writers have responded to onscreen chemistry and dynamics. One of the things I hate about a lot of those US dramas with the bibles is that you end up with pairings that have absolutely zero on screen chemistry.

[tencrush]

I think that a lot of the relationship is played out in subtext. The chemistry between them has been palpable from the start and there has been a lot of lovely body language moments, really something in each episode. As for Jack, he has a smile that he only uses for Ianto. His body language relaxes when he is alone with him. Also he can't take his eyes of him, and does often gaze in quite a dreamy way.
Absolutely. I'm not campaigning for huge declarations of coupledom, all the things you say are true, and they're things I've seen, I just don't think they've been quite apparent ENOUGH to the audience as a whole.

an overlay of histrionics
LOL. Wordy McWordyword. It scares me that with the team as it stands, we're going to have more Jack/Gwen scenes rather than less, because the way John and Eve play off each other, it's just... eww. No. Bad OTT stuff.

[flyingwild.livejournal.com]

See, I think my big problem with the way people in the fandom approach this 'relationship' is there it seems to always be the extremes - they're either all about "twoo wuv" or the sex-toy thing.

What about just casual partners? Fuck buddies? That sort of thing? THAT is what it seems like to me more than anything else, really.

[glorfindelghost.livejournal.com]

I think the problem with that is that there's far too much baggage and history for it to be a no-strings bit of fun - If either of them wanted something like that then they could have had it with anybody they wanted.

However much both of them are able to compartmentalise things, you can't just skim over all the hurt and the past - although, coincidentally, that same history may be the same thing that stops Jack letting himself getting more involved. They're sort of stuck in no-man's land, at this awkward stage where there's clearly something there but it would be way too brave to take it further. Their own shread history is both a bond and a hindrance.

Joyful sexy Jack....

[(Anonymous)]

...I'm really glad somebody above said that. Sex is joyful for Jack. I've given up reading fanfic as there is far too much abused, poor, ickle Ianto ("Yan", for God's sake). Like that would be enjoyable for Jack.

I think they have great, fun sex.

And why does great, fun, adventurous sex preclude falling in love?

Ianto is falling in love with Jack - that's been made clear. It hasn't been made clear how Jack feels, but I honestly think that's because TPTB are torn between mysterious, enigmatic Jack and lover Jack.

I don't think they know where to go with a more "domesticated" Jack (will the viewers find it a turn-off), and I think this problem would have arisen if Jack had had an affair with Gwen (or any female) as well.

[(Anonymous)]

Tencrush, yes exactly re JB and EM. They can both actually act, I think, but seem to bring out the worst in each other. Some of it is Gwen's annoying character. If I had a pound for every friend who had said, at least once an episode "I find Gwen so annoying and isn't Ianto lovely" Well I would be rich. JB and GDL on the other hand are perfect together.

I just think that we have had too many angst ridden dramas where all the emotions are underlined in thick black pen. This relationship has more chance of lasting precisely because it isn't like that. It is off screen, and we only get the odd glimpse into the private world, such as in Adrift, and TTLM. It isn't Gray's Anatomy or whatever, thank God, and being Sci Fi, the relationship stuff has to come second.

As for Gwen/Rhys, they can underline the romance precisely because Rhys isn't a main character. I fear when main characters relationships become the focus, you get the Moonlighting scenario. I think that they are playing it right, and we have no reason to believe it isn't serious, in fact Ianto's comment to Owen, and subtle things about Jack, the body language as I mentioned above, and the forehead kiss, well all of the J/I stuff in Adam, makes me think that it is mmore than casual.

I agree with the comments about sexuality, and think it would be a terrible betrayal if the intention is some type of pure love between Jack/Gwen, Jack/Ianto just being about sex. I think it is very important that it isn't that, and I don't think it is. I of course am taking a nerdy overthinking approach, and I accept that mostly people view it much more superficially!!

[(Anonymous)]

Oh yes and I also meant to say bloody "Yan" there is no way that Ianto would ever ever be called that, and he is a big solid Welsh bloke, not a teenage girl. I know some Welsh blokes, it really isn't the culture to go in for cutesy nicknames. Silly nicknames (like Banana) yes.

I recommend every fan fic writer get hold of Gavin and Stacey as soon as possible, and watch it!! Not only will it tell you everything you need to know about Welsh vernacular, it also has a side order of Estuary, which would fit for Owen, and of course Martha. (And it is bloody brilliant)

Agree with the comments upthread about reverse sexism.

[sefkhet.livejournal.com]

And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me.

My interpretation of KKBB hinges on two things. I read the line, "I came back for you," as Jack saying to Ianto that he came back for him, which happened before the awkward scene of awkward with Gwen; and I believe that while Jack ducks questions and gives ambiguous answers and has more secrets than MI-6, he doesn't say things that aren't true, which means that when he told Ianto that he had been thinking about asking him out on a date while he was gone, it meant that he had actually spent at least part of the Year That Never Was thinking about Ianto, which also happened before the awkward scene of awkward with Gwen.

I realise that not everyone saw that episode the way I did, which is kind of the point you're making about the writing leaving room for the kind of interpretation that you don't like, but that's the fantastic thing about television and characters whose heads we don't see inside. If there wasn't room for us to make our own interpretations and for other people to make interpretations that we see as really, really whacked out, we wouldn't need fandom.

Having said all of that, I also think that a lot of the seeing Ianto as Jack's sex toy comes from early Season 1 characterisation (and specifically Everything Changes) and from the Lisa thing. Once upon a time, Ianto WAS probably Jack's sex toy and that's the way he WANTED it to be, and to view their relationship as differently now, you have to be able to understand that relationships grow and develop and change, and theirs has, but not everyone gets that.

That, plus there will always be people who believe in Jack and Gwen's one twoo wuv and who will pull interpretations out of the clear blue sky if it means they can explain the pesky canon relationship out of the way in order to fulfill their OTP.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

Anyone watching Torchwood for the first time when Exit Wounds first aired, would have had no idea what-so-ever that Jack and Ianto were meant to be a couple. They'd have seen ex-lover Captain John for what he was - as well as Gwen/Rhys and Owen/Tosh - but definately not Jack/Ianto.

Of course, Jack and Ianto would have had no sex life at all had the writers decided to give Ianto the 'death' storyarc instead of Owen. The writers would have been forced to base their relationship post-Reset purely on friendship and affection.
I'm partially convinced that episodes like KKBB and Adam were written at a time when Ianto was going to be the one who was 'killed' instead of Owen and when the writers changed their minds, they were suddenly a little lost as to how to protray their relationship for the rest of the series.

[(Anonymous)]

Having said all I did above, I do agree about Exit Wounds, I think that may just be down to how many relationships Jack was involved in in that ep. Exes, siblings and colleagues. They could have had a few seconds though, I do agree with that.

Not sure about the Ianto death arc thing, it may be the opposite, having developed the relationship, too much potential angst if it were Ianto. Also just being cynical, but Ianto has a massive fan base, they must have realised that. Much as I loved Tosh, and had grown to like Owen, I think they really were the most expendable. The producers seem obsessed with Gwen, even if fans aren't, and also she has too many great characters (Rhys, PC Andy) around her.