I was just fucking witcha...

[tencrush]

Well, no, I wasn't, but apologies if my last post went a bit rambly and weird. Most you have never seen me rambly and weird, though in fact, dealing with people onna OG has made me go rambly and weird before in the past, but it was always about Rose. Must remind myself not to carry my righteous anger over from there to here, because it make NO sense out of context. Sorry, LOL!

Anyway, I kind of promised to explain what the righteous anger was about, so I'll do that now. As an aside, I AM planning on polling to see how widespread the interpretation of Ianto as just the teaboy/Jack's sextoy is, but it's not even really the fact that it is or isn't widespread that bothers me, it's the fact that the writing has even ALLOWED ROOM for that interpretation to exist that gets on my nerves.

So why does it bother me so much? Well, again, it's a question of characterisation. See, to me, interpreting the relationship as Jack using Ianto as a sextoy has a lot of implications for both characters, and it's why I say I don't think it's doing them any favours. The reason I got angry about it isn't because I'm so hugely defensive about Ianto, it's actually down to a few telling statements, statements that I HAVE heard elsewhere in other contexts, about JACK, not Ianto. And all that comes back to a discussion I've had here and elsewhere a few times, about Jack, and whether or not he is still, at this point in the narrative, the omnisexual slut type that he was perceived to be around the time of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. The fact that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is open to the sextoy interpretation, in my mind, also immediately implies that it is possible for viewers to perceive Jack as THE SORT OF GUY WHO WOULD DO THAT. Harrassment, of a subordinate. Because that's what that boils down to. The thing that got me so riled up wasn't the fact that people think Ianto is the sort of guy that would allow himself to be used as a sextoy (I think that's a plausible reading if you view the show in a certain way, and I think, given the fact that Ianto hasn't really had a major storyline since Cyberwoman, barring the Jackanto story itself, it's understandable that some people might view him that way), it was the attitude of the posters in question, and of people I have spoken to elsewhere, of "Oh, that's just the kind of guy Jack is." Because, really? No. If the storytelling has allowed room for the interpretation of Jack, the leading man, as the sort of guy who would use one of his employees for sex, given all the fucked up power dynamics that that implies, then the character of Jack, with regards to his sexual/romantic leanings in any case, has not been properly put to paper.

And that angers me greatly, yeah. Because Jack, in everyone's big grandiose words is supposed to be this whole new kind of hero for the 21st century. Someone with a progressive and liberal attitude towards sex and sexuality. Someone like you and me (I would hope), who doesn't like to label people and thinks everyone should be free to explore whatever facets of life turn them on. Someone who will serve as an example to that small faction of 15-year-old boys who are squicked by teh ghey, and maybe open their minds a bit. And allowing room for people to see Jack as a guy who just puts it about a bit, who comes on to one colleague, is rebuffed and moves on to the next, really FUCKS THAT UP for me. That's why I was angry.

Am I making sense yet or am I still rambling? The hormones haven't worn off yet, I can never quite tell lately.

Comments

[astuta.livejournal.com]

What I honestly don't get (and specially now, after reading so many of these comments) is how in the hell people can even interpret that Jack is using his power as the "boss" over Ianto to get sex. Ianto is not mindless, defenceless nor retarded, and if he doesn't want to have sex with Jack or have a relationship with him, that's his call. I personally don't believe they were having sex before "Cyberwoman", but I can admit that I still can't decide what that kiss was about...

Were was I? Oh, yes. Ianto can take care of himself and he certainly chooses how he wants the relationship to be. I doubt that he would stay with Jack if he doesn't get from him what he wants. Then again, what does he want? A monogamous relationship? I think so, but it's not explicit so we don't know for sure. Sure Jack flirts, and sure he has feelings for Gwen (as much as I hate it) but he is really down to earth in that sense. While he may love her (interpret it that love any way you want) he doesn't mess with Gwen's and Rhys's relationship. He actually encourages Gwen to keep her relationship alive and well.

And I doubt that what he fells for Ianto (now) is all about sex simply because I don't think Ianto would go with it, not now.

And I have no idea what I'm saying... do I make any sense? this rambling thing is contagious :D

[descrime.livejournal.com]

I blame this entire thing on how the show has been structured, specifically the decision to basically make Gwen the main character. I couldn't believe in the Fragment's Declassified when Chris said that Jack has been waiting for Gwen for 100 years. I mean, seriously? She'd have to discover the cure for cancer to be able to live up to that hype. Gwen is a perfectly nice normal girl and if she was treated like a perfectly nice normal girl in the show, there wouldn't be a problem. Instead, for some reason, it was decided that she has to be superagent!Gwen, who's completely comfortable with her job from Day One and the only one Jack confides in and the "heart" of the team. Which means she can never be called to task for the mistakes she makes, like letting lose a sex alien that kills 8+ innocent men or cheating on her live-in boyfriend and then giving him retcon and /demanding/ that he forgive her, which quite frankly starts to make her look appalling to any viewer that just thinks for a moment. Add that on top of the fact that every male except Ianto is apparently half in love with her, and the show becomes really skewed.

Torchwood should have been more like Spooks/MI-5, in which all the characters are treated roughly evenly (though obviously Jack would get more attention). Then, Ianto, Tosh and Owen would have taken some of the B plots from Gwen which would have given them time to shine the spotlight on the other characters who are just as important to Torchwood and we wouldn't have this ambiguity with Jack/Ianto.

Also, a feature of Spooks that would have served Torchwood well was the fear that any of them could go at any minute. But you know Gwen is protected by authorial fiat because Jack's been waiting for her for 100 freaking years.

I realize that this is only tangentially related your post, but it's what I thought of first.

[(Anonymous)]

It wasn't Chris who said that. It was one of the producers. I also wondered what fucking show he was watching. The episode clearly said that what Torchwood needed was Jack Harkness. I think you are right though, the Gwen worship and every man being in love with her aside from Ianto is part of the problem.

[tigercheetah.livejournal.com]

I've felt for a long, long time that Gwen should never have been a lead on the show. She should have been a support with Owen, Ianto and Tosh.

RTD's trying to re-create the Doc/Rose relationship with Jack/Gwen. Richard Stokes even said as much several months ago. The only problem is - Torchwood is an essemble of 5 characters, not just 2 as with Doctor Who. RTD seems to forget that from time to time.

[(Anonymous)]

I am hoping there might be some nice exposition at the end of Dr Who series 4. We shall see. It would only be minute, what with RTD needing to throw everying into it. It's called Children of Time, and my heart sinks a little. Still Martha has been with them, and I imagine Ianto will make some kind of appearance.

[takenatwork.livejournal.com]

I commented earlier, have had my tea and come back to read the comments again. It's interesting to see all the comments, but I'm still with the majority that it's not clear what the relationship is. It's been said that it's best to have holes in the characterisation so you can put your own interpretation on it. But we could be having this discussion about any of the characters in TW and the views would be just as varied, with holes to fill in our own interpretation. What you've got though, is a lot of holes. There has to be some consistency in the characterisation and it has to be portrayed on the screen, much as I like reading fan fiction.

[tencrush]

*nods*
I agree, holes are fine, a bit of mystery is fine, but I think when you start writing your LEADING MAN with such gaping holes in his characterisation that his motivation and actions can be interpreted so vastly differently by the viewing audience, you're doing something wrong. And it amounts to an extra special kind of fail if you do that whilst at the same time smugly telling us what a thoroughly modern and progressive hero you've created.

[liserific.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry if people "misinterpreting" Jack/Ianto gets you riled up, but the fact is, characterization is just like literature in that it has many interpretations. While I do agree with your points, I do wish you would accept others' points of view as well. And it doesn't even have to be acceptance; tolerance is fine too, just please stop bursting an artery every time you see an idea that doesn't fit yours.

I, too, am terribly defensive of Ianto, and I don't think he would allow himself to be used as a sex toy (with the exception of post-Fragments). Jack, as well, isn't the type of man who would exploit someone in that way, because he has compassion hiding under the "omnisexual-slut" exterior. This interpretation I've come to by myself from watching the show and bringing own experiences to the context; this is the conclusion I have reached.

However, I can't help but feel that you're attacking others' interpretations of this pairing. What you think is out of character may be plausible to other fans, because they too have drawn on their experiences and come to
their conclusions about the relationship. There is no "misinterpretation" unless there is concrete, numerous proof to label it such, and even then...well...people perceive things in different ways, and if their gut feeling tells them that Jack took advantage of Ianto, then why should we dissuade them of it?

If they write fanfiction and metas based on their "wrong" ideas, then don't read it. Fandom is supposed to be a fun, tolerant place that accepts everyone's opinions and encourages discussion. What I feel you're doing is bulldozing over the ideas that do not line up with yours, and I can't help but protest such actions.

I apologize if this offends you because that's not my intention at all. I'm simply trying to say that, even if I agree with your ideas, I do not agree with your method of preaching those ideas. So I will now practice what I preach and stop reading things that upset me, and I sincerely hope for your health that you will do the same.

[tencrush]

Sorry, which bit of the above is me "bursting an artery", exactly? I never claimed any interpretation was a MISinterpretation, I think any interpretation is as valid as the next, like I said in my righteous anger post, I think the Dude I was talking about had a valid point and valid reasons for seeing the relationship the way he sees it.

My beef is with the fact that the interpretation he has isn't hugely contradicted by canon, and that means that that view of Jack isn't contradicted by canon either. And I think that's a pretty dim view of the hero of the piece, which I think is a shame. I don't really see how explaining why I think that's a shame is preaching, seriously. Do tell.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

That's a really good point about people bringing their own experiences to their interpretations of the show. Thanks for bringing it up!

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

you make perfect sense to me
personally, i don't think jack is that type of guy and i don't think he is the same guy we met in 'the empty child' either
i mean, he's been around for... years - ppl change over time
the fact that some ppl have that interpretation is the fault of a serious lacking on the writers' part
but we all see what we want to see anyway

[shamazipan.livejournal.com]

The problem for me is that over the whole series I haven't been able to construct a solid view of my own on the relationship between Jack and Ianto or even on Jack himself. I find myself flip flopping like some kind of suffocating fish over it. Of course, LJ doesn't help, as each time I read one of these posts I can completely agree with the argument being set out, as each presented point seems to be valid. The bad thing? Each writer seems to view it differently and so there is "evidence" for just about every view point out there. My way round it? I am a Janto fangirl in the extreme. My heart belongs to Ianto. I see the bits that show how good this relationship could have been shown onscreen (Adam, The scene at the table in FOOTR) and cling on to those for dear life.

[tencrush]

The problem for me is that over the whole series I haven't been able to construct a solid view of my own on the relationship between Jack and Ianto or even on Jack himself. I find myself flip flopping like some kind of suffocating fish over it.
I sympathise, yeah. I feel the same sometimes. like I said, I'm slightly more of a casual viewer in that I don't watch it that often, and I have found it helpful to read the interpretations of others who have watched more often than I have in assessing Jack and Jack/Ianto (funnily enough, not Ianto, my views on Ianto are pretty fixed and all my own, but then GDL's acting really works for me in the exact same way it really doesn't work for some other people. He's just my kind of actor, and I understand the character.) The very fact that I need to read other people's meta to help me assess what I'm looking at is something I find quite telling and just a bit worrying, because I'm an intelligent, well-rounded person, and I don't have a problem with subtlety at all. But yeah, there's evidence to support every way of looking at it and I just wish they'd narrowed it down somewhat by making their bloody minds up.

[(Anonymous)]

I really can't see writers just wanting to create fan fiction opportunities! I'm glad they are giving it time, it may last longer than the average on screen relationship. Surely the point is that this is a sci fi show, they can't turn it into a soap and have people sit about angsting about relationships.

I remember after the snog in TTLM, a lot of comments about how people generally loved it because they felt it was part of the plot, and worked, not shoehorned in or superfluous relationship stuff. The men I know who watch feel very strongly on that point, they don't mind a little bit if it fits with the plot, but they want action and monsters and sci fi as well. Having said that, I have also heard quite a few women say the same thing, they hate too much of it in either DW or TW, they can watch elsewhere for angst and soap.

I really feel that less is more, and have been quite happy with what they have done this season. I do agree that they could get away with a little more, but too much and the whole thing would be doomed. People have commented on the others having bed scenes, but bed scenes are scenes of doom, certainly for Owen and Tosh. I doubt they will mirror Gwen/Rhys with Jack/Ianto. I would like to see a little more domesticity in the next series, definitely. Porn would also be nice. Not too much though, that just makes me anxious.

[descrime.livejournal.com]

Never fear, I don't think they could get away with actual porn on BBC1. ^^

[furius.livejournal.com]

I think Jack/Ianto in TW is the writers' way of saying "we can be subtle" but to the point that "subtlety" is rather too vague in contrast with Rhys/Gwen mostly because none of them knew what was going to happen and which OTP will work out better/be more popular.

Jack/Gwen was in a similar place as Jack/Ianto except Jack/Ianto didn't quite emerge from that ambiguity until the beginning of Season 2 at which point I think there are hints of a larger background some writers wish to explore and others didn't, so the audience get unfinished hints. I would like to think Fragments is suppose to hearken back to Cyberwoman....but it still makes the stopwatch suggestion and "Captain Jack Harkness" a little bizarre.

It's a pick-and-choose canon. It's what the show's doing, so I suppose all interpretations are up for grabs, though somehow I suspect the "Jack is disturbingly emotionally abusive towards Ianto" plotline stems more out of fic kink than canonical interpretation.

Jack hasn't been the most stable character and his Unknown Past (51st century or 18th cent onwards...after his DW appearances) do give people a lot of freedom. For some, it's historic fics, for others, it's "the dark paths of his mind..." which is a legitimate interpreation, I think. Jack is mysterious but canon refuses to explore and fandom explores to various ends and successes...

[(Anonymous)]

Except that in season one it was Owen/Gwen, not really Jack/Gwen at all. Also Rhys/Gwen. I think that they set Jack/Ianto up from the first episode, but clearly it was even more behind the scenes in the first season, and they have chosen to develop both Ianto's character and the relationship. I remember on first viewing Cyberwoman assuming that all the rage between them was due to them shagging. Otherwise a lot of it was way over the top. Plus of course the kiss in that episode. Then the non verbal stuff in Countrycide.

I also remember on first viewing Capt Jack Harkness that I just thought that Jack/Ianto were casual. I don't think they would do that episode now without some kind of angst or repercussion. Even then I thought it was a little cheeky of him, but wondered if something changed after, as they did seem more properly together in End of Days.

Just one more thing...

[(Anonymous)]

The other thing I have thought is that the BBC production people seem very keen to flesh out the Jack/Ianto relationship on the websites. I have wondered for a while if this is to ensure that we get it, that it is less ambiguous. I know some people don't regard it as canon, however it is official stuff, and approved as such. The US stuff is very obvious, but even the British site has contained references in both series, and definitely hasn't lent any credence to other interpretations, such as Jack/Gwen true wuv etc.

God really must get to bed now, I should have just opened an account for this thread!

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

Okay, I don't have time to wade through all 133 comments so far, so forgive me if this has been said already. :)

While I agree that the way that Jack/Ianto has been written has a number of flaws, I don't think that this is one of them. I think that the "Jack thoughtlessly using Ianto as a sex toy" interpretation is the result of people bringing their own preconceptions to the show, and trying to impose heteronormative preconceptions about boss/secretary relationships onto Jack/Ianto. The fact is, all evidence from the show suggests that Ianto is the one who initiates sexual most of the sexual encounters between them-- when we see Jack initiating (Cyberwoman, End of Days, KKBB, Adam) it's usually something romantic (kisses, dates, hugs)-- while Ianto initates romantic stuff too, he's usually the one we see initiating actual sexual encounters.

I think that the only way that the writers could avoid some people jumping to the sex-toy conclusion (due to their own social conditioning) would be to go all-out smoochy romantic, "I love you", like so much fanfic. And even then, people would just try to impose another set of heteronormative assumptions on their arses-- they'd be configured as a traditional "husband and wife" team-- and personally, I feel that many of those dynamics are just as distrubing as the boss/secretary dynamics imposed by the "sex toy" group.

Honestly, I don't think that the writers can really get out of this one, because the problem (in this instance) isn't the writing; the problem is societal attitudes towards gender and sexuality.

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

I just had a thought -- had Torchwood gone the route of Jack/Gwen, well, wouldn't that *be* the "hetronormative male boss/female subordinate" relationship or the traditional "husband and wife team" relationship? All the problems inherent in Jack/Ianto due to the power imbalance between the two would apply to Jack/Gwen as well, and without the easy out they've been using of making Ianto the sexually aggressive one. Because, you know, make a woman sexually aggressive and she'll be labeled a slut in a blink of the eye. We think they've made a mess of Jack/Ianto, but just imagine all the ways Jack/Gwen could have gone wrong! :D

[mrhapptits.livejournal.com]

I don't think Jack is a sleep-around type of guy even if he flirts with anything with a heartbeat. I mean look at season 2 how many people has he even flirted with? off the top of my head I counted 3 people (excluding Gwen whose a on/off flirt) John, Ruth and Martha but he hasn't gone that extra mile and it lessens as the season progresses.

They don't have the perfect relationship, it was never going to be the fairytale Gwen and Rhys has but its as damn near to one as we've gotten. I admit that there relationship gets a lot of flack but maybe neither of them are prepared yet to show how deep their feelings are because its a young relationship (I believe a season just about covers a year)and that's why everyone thinks its just shagging, the dance i will say is Ianto saying 'yes, we are together' but that's the extent of it. Look at the negative comments Gwen and Owen pour onto the relationship Gwen's comments in FOOTR while funny is quite homophobic and Owen, the times he's made the shagging Jack comments have come at times when his role has been in question: opening the rift and losing his position. First time in a way was spot on we know they shagged but not how the relationship was second time i will say Owen is jealous because Ianto has someone and he doesn't.

To use TW to promote any kind of relationship is a bad thing. heterosexual, gay and lesbian relationships are all deeply broken in this show.

p.s. I do also think they should have done a Jack/Ianto scene in EW just like the Gwen/Rhys scene.

[tencrush]

While I agree with you, and I don't think TW should be used to promote any sort of relationship, I do think that, as you and others have said, there's quite an underlying jokey feel about the way Jack/Ianto is portrayed on screen, and some of that does border on the homophobic. And for a show that touts itself as being so progressive, I think they've missed a trick by not counteracting that homophobia with one or two overt signs of there being more to Jack/Ianto than sex. And like you say, a Jack/Ianto scene in EW would have fixed that and would have only taken a few seconds.

I slag off TPTB a lot, I know, but funnily enough I firmly believe a J/I scene in EW was planned or even shot and cut, simply because I find it hard to believe that someone somewhere didn't have at least the artistic vision to think that it would be a nice mirroring of the two main relationships to show Jack and Ianto offering each other comfort in whatever shape it is that that would take, and thereby show the audience the ways in which the Jack/Ianto relationship differs from the Gwen/Rhys one, but also the ways in which it is fundamentally the same.

[sizequeen.livejournal.com]

are you familiar with Angry Puppy? it's a blog for gay geeks. in their video blog, the two guys who run the site, discuss TW on a weekly basis. a few weeks ago, they revealed their theory of janto. they think that jack is basically straight and falls in love with women (estelle, gwen, his unnamed wife) and has shags with men (ianto, various men decsribed in anecdotes). they think that if he hadn't grown up in such a liberal time and had the experience of time travel in disparate cultures that jack would essentially be a straight guy.

that was an interpretation that i had never considered, btu one that is born out by the evidence. jack does tend to mention men as shags, and seems to view women as love objects. the only man that we know he loved was the doctor and the doctor is always a special case.

my point is this: the janto ship is ridiculous. to have any sense of them as a couple, you have to watch the show in order, then go back and rewatch season one after viewing fragments, read the captains blog, and analyze every lingering look to death.

that's essentially what you have to do to sustain a SLASH 'ship, not a canonical gay relationship. maybe that's the source of your frustration. i'll walk five miles in a blizzard to interpret and sustain my slash pairing, but canonical 'ships, even gay 'ships should be right there on the screen.

i think i understand the jack/ianto relationship. from reading your blog, i think we have similar views, but the idea that jack uses ianto is very understandable. jack "cheated" on ianto in captain jack harkness, made googly eyes at Gwen throught season 2 and seemed to have a special bond with her in season 1. then you have ianto, who is a confirmed fool for love (cybewoman) sniffing jack's coat and crying in end of days. that gives one the sense that ianto loves more and the person who loves more is always in an inferior position. it's not that jacks a bastard, but the sense is that jack has affection for ianto, while ianto deeply loves jack.

my hope for season 3? that jack and ianto break up. seriously. that'll give them a chance to re-build somethjing onscreen, so then we'll see why they care for each other.

[tencrush]

It's certainly an interpretation that has occurred to me. I explained it here a few months back. i don't subscribe to it, but I think it's been made slightly too easy to come to that conclusion.

And I never really thought about the slash thing, I've never been much of a slasher, but that's hilariously true. Slash is all about interpreting little glances and body language and MAKING UP a relationship based on nothing more than a few ambiguous looks and remarks. You shouldn't have to go to that amount of trouble for a CANON ship. It's just weird.

I mentioned having them break up as being the only clean solution, but I got just a tad flamed for it. So I'm keeping quiet now. :/

[exbentley]

I agree with this completely! As someone who loves, plays, and identifies with Jack more than Ianto, it always irks me to see janto fic written with Jack as this very closed-off, almost abusive aggressor. He's dark, yes, but unlike the Doctor (who tends to distance himself from humans a little) Jack loves to get close to people, even if it'll bring him hurt; he throws his whole being into loving his employees and any threat to them angers him greatly. There's been a time when he was almost married, for crying out loud.

He may be the most forthcoming of people when it comes to his past, but it has never been a doubt in my mind that Jack originally pursued Ianto to help him recover from Lisa — Ianto's words in the Adam episode underline this for me. Yes, he likes sex and yes he is open about it but I don't see him ever forcing a partner to do something against their will, degrading them or making them feel anything less than loved (unless it was part of a D/s or BDSM game, in which case it's understood that it's a case of sexual power and overall would have the partner's permission.)

The other characters might dismiss Ianto as a "part-time shag" and it's definitely an open relationship, at least in the sense that Jack still loves the Doctor and has no problem flirting with Martha, kissing John, etc etc; it's obvious he dousn't believe in monogamy. But Ianto seems to have wholehearted passion for Jack, and we know from Lisa what he'll do for those he loves. Jack, on the other hand, definitely enjoys Ianto's looks and has no shame in expressing his desire, but the idea that he would be WILLING to shag anything because he's open-minded does not translate through to the idea that he would use his power over Ianto to get sex. Especially not after the interim between S1 and S2, when he had an entire year to think about his team, and the conclusions he come to result in his asking Ianto on a date when he gets back; perhaps to dismiss the "part-time shag" idea from Ianto's teammates, and maybe Ianto himself's mind.

Sorry for the long comment. In short: YES YES YES this annoys me too, it upsets me when people interpret Jack as such a two-dimensional slut type.

edited for typos and spacing weirdness

[tencrush]

I'd actually go further, though, and say that even without the sex toy interpretation, the very straightforward and reasonably widespread interpretation that Ianto has way deeper feelings for Jack than Jack does for Ianto already on some level does Jack no favours as a character, because it implies that Jack has all the power in their working relationship, being Ianto's boss, and is also happy to enter into a personal relationship where the power is skewed in his favour, the one being more deeply in love (and as you say, we KNOW how deeply Ianto can love) being the one who is more dependent and therefore more powerless. That in and of itself, to me, paints a slightly squicky picture of Jack as the kind of guy who doesn't have a problem with that imbalance.

[jamesie-boy.livejournal.com]

I think I understand what you're saying here. I've never seen Ianto as the type of guy to let someone use him like that, no matter how screwed up in the head he might be. I love his character to bits so it really annoys me when people see him like that, as just Jack's boytoy.

And Jack. I think he's a flirt, a major flirt lol, and I also think that yeah he has slept around a lot. But, I don't see him as the guy who would use someone like that. Especially after what he and Ianto have been through. And when we first met Jack in Doctor Who he was a con-man but not what you would call a 'real badass conman' - he specifically told The Doctor that no one gets hurt. And when he found out that he had done he was all 'holy shit what the HELL have I done'. I dunno, to me someone who is a slut and uses people sexually I see as not caring what the other person feels, and I definitely don't see that with Jack.

Hey look, I rambled too! Hope I make sense...

[nikki4noo.livejournal.com]

Right my two cents, for what it is worth ;) What we have found out in canon about Jack?

1. The doctor in explaining to Rose that Jack is a little more flexible towards sex than those in the 21st Century "So many species, so little time." I saw that comment more as the Doctor warning Rose away from Jack, he had seen she was quite interested in Jack.
2. Omnisexual does not equate to slut, not once has there been any canon evidence for this in the show, just that he is open to being attracted to different species/people. Those that think it equals slut often think that homosexual=slut as well.
3. He flirts yes, but not once has he ever followed through with someone unwillingly. The flirtation is actually often used to distract someone, get control of a situation/conversation back the way he wants. Capt John did a similar thing when he was there so I see it as a Time Agent trick/training.
4. His flirtation this season has been fairly minimum, ep2 Tosh comments on his flirting and he is pretty adamant that wasn't what he was doing.
5. Longer term relationships - His family back home, fairly traditional family unit it seems - Father, Mother, sibling. He was in a relationship with John for 5 years. He at one stage was married, after knowing that he can't die, he still committed to a woman. Estelle, for a period he was very committed to her but didn't want to hurt her in the long run so broke it off, but still kept an eye on her. So canon back story on Jack shows that he can and has committed in the past.
6. Jack really is looking to be wanted/needed. He hides behind this brash persona but the reality is that he knows he will always be abandoned and how he was treated by the Doctor both times, makes me grr. That is partly why his reaction in Cyberwoman was so over the top. He trusted this guy, let him in on a lot of secrets and that trust was broken. Owen, Tosh and Gwen have all at some stage broken his trust too and he hasn't reacted anywhere near with the anger that he showed towards Ianto. We know that once Ianto gives his loyalty he will follow through often past the point of common sense. Jack is very similar, the Doctor has treated him very badly and yet Jack is still very loyal to him. I would have yelled at the Doctor if I had been treated the way Jack was, but no Jack waits for him and in fact tries to change Torchwood to honour the Doctor. So Ianto and Jack are actually fairly similar.
7. All the interactions between the two show Ianto as more dominant one. He is also the only one that can tell Jack off and Jack will listen and adjust his behaviour. i.e in Meat - Gwen is telling Jack off, does he listen, nope not at all, keeps goading Rhys, but as soon as he asks Ianto if he was showing off and Ianto tells him that he is, he stops it. Jack's response shows that Ianto isn't his fuck buddy, that Ianto is someone whose good opinion he cares for and respects.

Anyone that thinks that Ianto is being pushed around by Jack hasn't watched the show properly and paid attention. They obviously need to be bashed over the head with a blunt object and big words across the screen that "Look here are two guys that care about each other". If you can't pick up on the little things and hints that the writers and the actors are giving us, then go watch an american sitcom, that's probably more your thing, they explain things S L O W L Y and more than once for you to get it. I love this show because I have to pay attention, because I have to watch it more than once. They don't treat the audience like idiots, but as intelligent people who pay attention and want to think.

GDL's recent comments about when it started, he is totally contradicting himself from a much earlier interview which was given just shortly after the completion of filming of s2. In that interview (on his official website) he talks about Fragments and that Ianto didn't quite understand his feelings towards Jack before Cyberwoman, that he was conflicted and that there wasn't anything going on before then. Gareth's recent comments need to be considered within context that he had just been talking about how much he loved the filthiness of fanfiction and was pretty well daring all the fangirls in the room to go write some more involving Ianto felching Jack.

[nikki4noo.livejournal.com]

Also to add that the character of Captain Jack is based very much on John himself, RTD specifically created that character for John to pretty well play himself. Now John is a HUGE flirt but he is in a very committed relationship with his long term partner. Flirting does not = cheating or that the other half is being 'used'.

[blackbird-song.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of this. I really am annoyed with the lack of direction in the writing that would leave room for the idea that Jack would actually treat anybody like that in the current phase of his life. I could maybe see him doing that at some point when he might have been so caught up in his own anger and selfishness that he didn't care, but he has eschewed that, now. (Besides, we are shown his care for the murdered Blowfish in 'Fragments,' where he's really miserable and bitter, so I'm not even sure about his ever allowing himself to treat a subordinate with so little consideration.) Frankly, I think he's far more likely to whore himself out to the highest bidder than to demand that someone do that for him.

I've been tearing my hair out over the whole idea that just because Jack is extremely open to sexual experiences of all sorts, and certainly enjoys talking about them, it must mean that he's out trolling for things with holes every other night. Frankly, I think that he's looking for belonging and love. Belonging and love do not have to mean a monogamous, forever relationship, though it seems clear that Jack can do that, if he needs to. I think that he actually can be an annoyingly needy person, in certain ways, which is why I really can't see him getting together with Gwen on a long-term basis. (They'd kill each other. A lot!) More to the point, though, I think that it's very important to him, at least at this point in his punishingly long life, to be a good man. I think that seeing what's worth saving, what's worth living for, is what keeps him sane through the most impossible of times, and you can't do that and be the sort of person who would knowingly harass a coworker, let alone a subordinate, without their express consent.

There is also the fact that Jack has for some time been patterning his behaviour off that of a World War II British officer, and that code of conduct expressly forbade any such abuse. Jack has clearly modified the code for acceptable contemporary use, of course, and has cheerfully ignored the strictures against homosexual acts all along, but he's kept the important stuff intact.

Given everything that we've seen of both of these characters, I'm not going to be able to view their relationship as one in which Jack is taking callous advantage of Ianto. It just doesn't fit. I'm really angry at the writers for not showing us critical moments anywhere but in the Captain's Blog on BBCA, such as the one you and I and so many others would have liked to see after 'Exit Wounds,' but given the way they have written Jack so far, and the way JB has portrayed him, I simply would not find such an interpretation of him credible at this point, even if the PTB wrote that in in series 3.

Thank you for this post, and for tolerating my rambling. I'll be looking for your poll on the subject. :)

Catherine

[nightspring.livejournal.com]

I'm really angry at the writers for not showing us critical moments anywhere but in the Captain's Blog on BBCA

I wouldn't go so far as to say they haven't shown us *any* "critical moments." Jack's speech and the kiss following it in TtLM should definitely count as a critical moment. And I'd think the asking for a date scene in KKBB and the kiss in End of Days could also be considered one too. And Ianto's flashback in Fragments was, to me, an eight minute long critical "moment"! *g*

I do admit that I tend to be satisfied with subtle moments that perhaps many other people find too subtle to be satisfying, such as Jack's "Never" and the brief hug they share when Jack gets back in Exit Wounds. Or the way Jack shouted "Ianto!" when he was searching for Ianto in the rubble in Fragments. Or going way back to Cyberwoman, how Jack very obviously looks toward Ianto when Gwen asks him if he has ever loved anyone that much. But I also agree that the writers could give us a lot more. However, I also feel saying they haven't given us anything is a little unfair to them.

Just wanted to say

[(Anonymous)]

that I completely disagree with the theory that Jack is basically straight, and I think it is insulting. Also that I know quite a few gay men who watch TW and have never heard them say such a thing. They just view him as bisexual, simply that. He does refer to "boyfriends." Has done a few times. We also know he had a relationship with John. I assume the past marraige and Estelle is just to even the balance a bit so he isn't only ever portrayed in same sex relationships, not to suggest that he is only romantically interested in women, and men are just for sex.

Sorry, just had to rant about that blog, and that gay men suggest it, talk about your internalised homophobia.

Surely the Captain's blog about TKKS is just a joke? He just isn't letting on what really happened.

Re: Just wanted to say

[coffeegirl18.livejournal.com]

Surely the Captain's blog about TKKS is just a joke? He just isn't letting on what really happened.


According to Captain's Blog...

Upcoming issues: Need to requisition a new stopwatch. Old one damaged while moving a desk.


Yeah Jack definitely took Ianto up on the offer of the Stopwatch!Kink.

[sanginmychains.livejournal.com]

Word. You're quite right; canon does not support the interpretation that Jack is the sort of manipulative, cold man who would thoughtlessly use a colleague and friend this way. I much prefer the fics that see Jack as perhaps a little world-weary, a little emotionally wary, but genuinely sincere in his dealings with people. I'm working on something now where Ianto is the one who is more or less using Jack's sexual interest in him, against him (sorry for the assault against prepositional phrases there). It's a pre-Cyberwoman fic, and at that stage in the overall story, Ianto is the one who is motivated to hide, lie, and manipulate. Also, he's rather young, and while that can imply a certain emotional liveliness, it can also mean a certain self-absorption and failure to take in the big picture.

So, good rant. I appreciate your point of view.

[coffeegirl18.livejournal.com]

I didn't watch it as Ianto the sextoy...I read it in the 1st season as Ianto distracting Jack from figuring out about Lisa. Sort of protective/self-sacrifice but the being attracted to Jack started before he was even hired (as we saw in Fragments). In the 2nd series, they've actually grown attached to each other as seen in Adam; they've been affectionate even during work hours.

Plus Ianto's a badass...they just needed to work more with his character. I mean he probably tasered a guy to death.