tencrush | Torchwood - Exit Wounds, the Jack/Ianto story

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Torchwood - Exit Wounds, the Jack/Ianto story

Okay, I have to admit, I was totally spoiled for this episode, I knew Jack was going to be buried for 2000 years, and I have to conclude that knowing this fact totally made me get my hopes up. I figured that there would be repercussions from the 2000 year thing. I didn't know what those repercussions might be, but I figured Jack/Ianto would either be OVER, or we'd get some sort of on-screen confirmation that this is more than a fuckbuddy thing for Jack. And yes, I KNOW what Jack said in TTLM, and I KNOW there's been lots of hints about how Jack feels about Ianto, but hints can only really carry a story for so long. So yes, personally, I was disappointed there wasn't much going on on the shipping front.

Ianto was very upset, that was blatantly obvious, about Jack being missing, that was played well and it was abundantly clear how happy he was to have Jack back. But, again, I didn't really see much from Jack about where he stands with Ianto. (Have you read the Captain's blog for Adrift, by the way? They seem to be SHOVING it down the Americans' throats, but that's half-canon, aimed at one specific audience, why just there? Why can't we be shown any clarity on screen, seriously?)

Sure, they're not majorly affectionate with each other, and I didn't expect Ianto to fall into Jack's arms like Gwen did, that would have been completely OOC. But I would have liked to have seen a scene akin to the Gwen/Rhys thing on the sofa, just to let us know whether these two crazy kids are still together. As an aside, I think that scene WAS probably filmed and cut, and I think those two crazy kids ARE still together. I just don't think, on the whole, the writing has done a great job of proving that to me throughout the season, and especially not in this episode. Sorry, dudes, but that was a bit fail.

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This kind of makes me pessimistic that we're going to get anything of substance about Jack and Ianto from them, ever. Especially what with the rumors about the direction the show will take next season.

And this is why I have been drowning my sorrows in

ihazastopwatch.

It is my secret hope that somewhere there is a vault with a ton of Jack/Ianto cut scenes in it, and someday someone is going to release them all at once and they will fully reveal the nature of Jack and Ianto's relationship, whatever that may be.

And this is why I have been drowning my sorrows in ihazastopwatch.

I don't know whether to love your or hate you for linking to this comm, because although I am crackup up so hard right now, it is seriously going to distract me from the crapload of homework I have to do today. XD

Edited 2008-04-06 15:38 (UTC)

It's a thing of beauty, isn't it? Glad you enjoyed.

Aww -- thanks for the link. It makes the baby Ianto smile.

'Have you read the Captain's blog for Adrift, by the way? They seem to be SHOVING it down the American's throats, but that's half-canon, aimed at one specific audience, why just there?'
It's always been like that. I think whomever writes the blog is a Jack/Ianto shipper.

I do wish Jack/Ianto would have had at least one little moment (Ianto breaks down after Gwen leaves and Jack comforts him or something).

Or vice versa -- just like the blog states for Adrift. Let Jack cry his heart out over Grey, Tosh, and Owen while Ianto holds him. That would speak volumes to me about what Jack feels about Ianto if he relies on Ianto for that type of comfort.

'Or vice versa -- just like the blog states for Adrift. Let Jack cry his heart out over Grey, Tosh, and Owen while Ianto holds him. That would speak volumes to me about what Jack feels about Ianto if he relies on Ianto for that type of comfort.'
Now that I would have loved to have seen. Maybe we'll get something like that in Series 3, but I'm starting to doubt it.

We'll get it in fanfic, I'm sure. :-)

Yes. Yesyesyesyes. THAT is my issue. He's said, even before this season started, that Jack NEEDS him, and I HAVEN'T seen that played out on screen. I can see that Jack LIKES him, I can even fanwank that Jack LOVES him, but I haven't had more from Jack than an impression that this is just a convenient relationship for him. I would have taken ANY hint, in ANY episode that Jack NEEDS Ianto around for more than naked hide and seek. I really haven't seen that.

Maybe what Jack needs is the unconditional forgiveness that he gets from Ianto. After Lisa, after leaving him with no word, after having to do things that even the rest of the team take a long time to trust him with. Ianto trusts him, and forgives him his mistakes pretty consistently. Granted, Jack seems to do the same for Ianto, as well. Jack seems to forgive easily, for just about anything, without reservation. But how often does he get the same in return?
As a specific contrast, Gwen seems to jump to blaming im numerous times, and then while she eventually lets it go (usually after having been proven incontrovertably WRONG), she seems to have a hard time forgiving him for disappointing her.

On top of that, Ianto seems to be something of a stable base of quiet support. He's always there, at Jack's back, supporting his decisions. Especially in S2. Along with being someone Jack opens up to more than he even does with Gwen.
Gwen got to know his secrets through circumstances beyond Jack's control, and that continued through most of the 1st series. Probably because she's the only one he had to talk to about those things. at the time. She doesn't seem to be the one who gets that anymore.
Ianto is the one he's more open with, now. Ianto also doesn't seem to feel the need to push Jack into being a better person. He behaves more like he already knows that Jack is a good person, and Jack rises to those expectations much more than he does to being chided into it.

Now contrast that with the Doctor, who usually expects the worst from Jack, and doesn't really acknowledge how very much he's changed for the better, no matter how desperately Jack might want him to.

So, I think there's plenty of indication that Jack needs Ianto for more than just a bit of kinky stress-relief.

I like to think that, despite what was originally implied, and even Jack's own intentions in hiring her, Gwen isn't HIS conscience. She's the conscience of Torchwood as a whole. It's really Ianto who serves as Jack's personal reminder not to let go of his own humanity.

I know all that, and I agree. I've just never really seen any appreciation from Jack for all the things Ianto does for him. I can think of a hundred reasons why Jack needs Ianto around, and why this relationship is something Jack needs and appreciates. I've just never seen Jack articulate, even nonverbally, a single one of them.

But they'll give it to us in the blog. Very cynical pandering on the part of the show.

I'm very cynical. When putting an episode together, choices are made about what's important to show and what's not. It was important to show Gwen/Rhys. It was not important to show Jack/Ianto even though they could have made time for just one small scene of the two of them together (just like Gwen/Rhys). Maybe they could have cut a few seconds of Quilted Cardboard or JM to make room for it. But of course there was another fanbase to serve with that storyline, so no. That tells me something about the priorities of the showrunners and what they think about the relative importance of that relationship in the grand scheme of things.

While they've been clear enough about Ianto's side of things (because this relationship is essential to his character growth), they've not bothered to show very much of Jack's side of things. So I interpret that to mean it's not really important to Jack as a character. Jack's enjoying it, it's a relationship that helps Ianto grow as a person (which adds another layer of enjoyment for Jack the Saviour), and it enhances their professional rapport but that seems to be it. There's no 'there' there for Jack. I think there was more screen time devoted to how Jack feels about Gwen, frankly. It seemed to be the point of two entire episodes even though I can't claim to understand it.

The fact that the BBCA Blog has much more from Jack's perspective than the show provides looks to me like a blatant exercise of 'having cake and eating it too' because they can give a segment of fandom what they want without having to actually include it in the show itself.

The best thing I can say about Jack/Ianto this series is that Ianto seems to have blossomed as a person and that despite his intense feelings for Jack, he is clearly his own person with his own moral center. That's a very good thing. Jack seems to be getting some pleasure out of his life and relationship with Ianto, so that's a good thing, too. I'm sad that this isn't a love story as I would have hoped (I'm not sure why GDL says it is because general usage of that term implies 'in love' and while Jack 'loves' there's really been no 'in love').

Someone (I wish I could remember who it was so I could credit him/her) said that Jack is a point on the journey and not a destination for Ianto. I think that may have been a very wise observation. If it's a choice between Ianto having no relationship and becoming Owen/Tosh or a relationship with a mentor who respects (but isn't in love) with him, then I guess for now I'll choose the latter. I doubt I'll feel that way for another series because part of me is a sappy romantic and I would like these two to actually be in love. Part of me wants Ianto to have it all the way Gwen is trying to have it all with Rhys. If Ianto remains accepting of a relationship with someone who isn't in love with him, I'll start to worry that he's too damaged to actually want a relationship with someone who makes emotional demands and that will make me a little sad for the character (much as I was sad that Tosh was so damned needy).

But in some ways it's fruitless for me to even speculate because I think TW as we know it is over. With a new showrunner, cast changes (both regular and recurring), and possibly other things going on, they could go in any direction at this point for the future.

'But in some ways it's fruitless for me to even speculate because I think TW as we know it is over. With a new showrunner, cast changes (both regular and recurring), and possibly other things going on, they could go in any direction at this point for the future.'
I feel the exact same way. With all the changes their making it's not going to be the same show. For all we know in the next series they could put Jack and John, or even John and Ianto together.

Or go totally all out with Jack/Ianto (my choice of the options). I figure that the next incarnation of TW must be tied in some way to DW (either casting or storyline) and that's why we're not hearing anything.

I tend to agree, yes. I don't think we'll hear any more on the future of TW until Who has finished its run on the BBC, as I think there's a connection there that they're not telling us about.

Edited 2008-04-06 17:33 (UTC)

I like your theories that there's re-tooling related to the franchise as a whole going on behind the scenes, too. I'm wondering if there is some discussion of how to keep the TW part of the franchise running without having it tied to JB. Right now, TW is Jack and therefore JB. Could some of the rework be geared towards getting TW less dependent on that character?

I think so. I've heard a few rumours that Barrowman's getting a bit itchy to leave. Plus, I think the BBC are looking to get as much out of TW as they possibly can through BBCA, and I think they might be looking to rework both Doctor Who AND Torchwood for 2010, which is allegedly when Tennant leaves, but also, I just learned from one of my loyal readers, when the SciFi Channel's rights are up, and BBCA could feasibly take back the rights to Who. So yeah, I think there's a few reasons they're trying to rejig the franchise for the future.

I recall some criticisms that JB made about how the production of TW is run and perhaps that's been a factor in his itchy feet or in the producers desire to hedge their bets on that front.

My guess is that if they could get JM committed to enough episodes to either supplement or supplant JB, they'd do it in a heartbeat. They'd get a more committed boost to the audience share because the JM fanbase follows all of his projects. they'd get an opportunity to do another version of the 'reformed Time Agent' storyline for the TW fanbase that isn't part of the DW fanbase. They'd also get a great actor to add to the ensemble. But given what I understand about JM, I'm not sure he's in a position to commit to a show that shoots in Wales. It makes one wonder if the miniseries concept (5 episodes) might facilitate a larger role for Captain John since it could be in a shorter timeframe. Hm.

My guess is that if they could get JM committed to enough episodes to either supplement or supplant JB, they'd do it in a heartbeat.
I'm with you on that one, I think this is one of their biggest hopes and I think they'd be more than willing to schedule around him.

This makes me sad. I like JM and I love the character of John as some crazy, chaotic force but...I like my show the way it is, too.

Am I really the only person who actually LIKES that they're stringing us along, and keeping things undefined?

I just keep thinking that the death knell for a TV relationship is always the point where it's been resolved, and both the participants and the audience run out of questions.
As long as they keep us interested by not making absolutely everything clear, the relationship will continue, which is what I want to see.

Now, that's not to say that I wouldn't appreciate a little bit more onscreen aknowledgement. I agree that there should have been a Jack/Ianto scene to match/equal the Gwen/Rhys one. Even if not the exact same kind of snuggling on the couch thing.
I'd have liked to see the two of them sharing a drink in Jack's office, since that's been the established "way Jack deals with a close death" thing since the first series.

I do think there's potential in the fact that Jack doesn't let John kiss him goodbye, the way he did in KKBB. He turns and gives him his cheek, instead. He's already forgiven John, so that's not a valid motivation. It's possible that Ianto was nearby (but not in the room), and he was respecting Ianto's feelings.

'I just keep thinking that the death knell for a TV relationship is always the point where it's been resolved, and both the participants and the audience run out of questions.'
Ah yes. I really do like how Jack/Ianto's relationship plyaed out (Gareth said it was going to be a slow burn through out the Series). I was just hoping one little moment like Gwen/Rhys or Tosh/Owen got (sharing a drink would have been good). I liked their little moment in To The Last Man (right before the kiss).

I don't mind them stringing us along, really, but they could have just as easily made this a completely ESTABLISHED emotional involvement for both of them, and THEN thrown in the spanner of Jack being buried for TWO THOUSAND YEARS. That would have left us with just as many questions as to where the relationship is heading, but without quite so many questions as to where the relationship WAS AT.

In short, though, I wouldn't mind the stringing along quite so much if there weren't so many production changes on the cards, and if we'd had confirmation on the recommissioning.

There are a lot of rumours about how the next series will go, but nothing, absolutely NOTHING is confirmed.
Personally, I think you are all worrying about nothing.....
To change it as radically as has been suggested would be to end it, and the ratings do not warrant it being ended.

I haven't said anything about the next series, though we know there's a new showrunner and half a new cast to consider. So if they want to carry on into a new series with ANY continuity at all, the Jack/Ianto storyline is pretty much the only unfinished business on the show at the moment, I'm not particulalrly worried that it's a storyline that will fall by the wayside, because I don't think it will. So, from a logical perspective, I'm not really worried about the relationship, I just think it's been really ambiguously portrayed from Jack's side. I went into Exit Wounds convinced (FINALLY convinced, and believe me, I took a lot of convincing and reading of other people's meta and watching and watching again.) that this was a relationship. An emotional involvement that was reciprocal. And again, in one episode, they've made me doubt that GREATLY, not by anything they've shown, but by NOT showing, again, HOW JACK FEELS. I DON'T WANT TO FILL IN THE BLANKS ANYMORE, and I don't want to get the filling for those blanks from a vaguely connected blog on an American subsite. Show me the fucking money already. I KNOW Ianto's in love, it shows in pretty much every scene now. I have NO IDEA what's going on in Jack's head.

As an aside, I think that scene WAS probably filmed and cut, and I think those two crazy kids ARE still together.

DVD extras maybe? One can only cross every crossable joint and hope!

I thought it was an interesting factor that, in that last scene of the three of them, they chose to have Ianto be the pillar of almost hurting himself to keep his feelings on the inside. He stood stock tall, hands in front, so Jack could basically support himself on Ianto while Gwen was a mess clinging to Jack. I know there was a debate on torch_wood that someone thought Ianto seemed so unresponsive=uncaring, but it wouldn't do the others any good to have them all completely sobbing and a mess. When Jack can't be that support, Ianto (who's become in a lot of ways like his understudy) will step up and be that person. He's a guy who needs to be needed at his core and with Gwen AND Jack in tears, they need someone to cling to who will be that model of vague control in order to calm them down. Certainly it would have been fabulous to see Jack and Ianto together ala Gwen/Rhys there but its something we've NEVER seen between them aside from that one convo pre TTLM: the comforting 'our lives are hell so come get a hug' aspect of their relationship.

Yeah, the reason I think that there was a scene filmed is that I think somewhere along the line, there was someone who thought it would be nice to show the difference between these two relationships and the different ways in which they help each other cope. I'm sure there was someone with some vision who figured it would be a nice juxtaposition to have Gwen and Rhys comforting each other by snuggling on the sofa while Jack and Ianto do whatever it is they do (probably just booze it up in Jack's office again) to comfort each other. Because that WOULD have been a nice little insight into the differences and similarities between these two relationships and I'm sure someone thought it would be cool to show that before I did just now.

That and, on a technical note, the Gwen/Rhys thing seemed oddly disembodied, and was preceded by an aerial shot of the Plass, and not Cardiff generally, which usually means the next scene's in the Hub.

Because that WOULD have been a nice little insight into the differences and similarities between these two relationships and I'm sure someone thought it would be cool to show that before I did just now.

I would LOVE to give the production team the benefit of the doubt but I'm not sure if I'm really going to hold my breath for it. Its a bit cynical yeah, but I'd rather be pleasantly shocked at them thinking so logically/character-wise like that than hope and find nothing :D However, you're completely right. This season has had a lot of comparisons between the three core relationships and that would be just another great example to show different coping/grieving mechanisms as well as signs of how these characters will go on from such a painful place.

I read a review in which the commentator stated s/he didn't understand why GD-L chose to play Ianto so unemotional during that scene, and I thought wow he wasn't unemotional, he was stoic, trying desperately to keep it all in. There is a difference. As I stated above, I'm happy with the stoic Ianto in this episode. Besides, with the exception this episode, he's been the only one to have emotional breakdowns this season/series. Poor guy, he's damned if he do and damned if he doesn't.

PS - I'm a member of LJ, but I'm very new and quite unfamiliar with how it functions. When trying to post, if I use the "anonymous" option it allows me to post, but if I try to post under my username, it tells me I need to have my e-mail address verified, which I have no idea how to do. So, please forgive all typos because I can't figure out how to re-open the post to correct my errors.

You should have an email at whatever email address you used to register, telling you to click a link and verify that your email address is real. It's to prevent registrations from spam emails.

He was in no way unemotional, I thought he was very emotional in a very Ianto kind of way. He was very blatantly being strong for Jack's sake.

Yeah I agree with what

tencrush said as well. He was being stoic because he had to, we know Ianto's very emotional but plays them close to the vest in most cases. Like you said~ Damned if he cries over his life falling apart and damned if he doesn't cry over his friend's dying because he's attempting to be strong.

Good luck with the email things by the way~

I have spent a lot of time trying to figure Ianto out - he's hidden himself quite well over the two series - you've managed to describe his character in one sentence. Thank you!

Ah thank you too~

He's an interesting character that -we've seen so far- really defines himself by those around him. In 'Fragments' we're shown three differing personalities that Ianto dons in order to try to get Jack's attention and we can see that the prim Butler we were introduced to in 1x01 is perhaps not the REAL Ianto Jones at all but a character he's been playing for Jack's benefit (as well as his own). He did that all for Lisa then when she's gone he begins to live for the job and Jack which grew into the relationship they got now.

I realize I'm rambling a bit now but one last thing~ People were thinking he was off in Sleeper with his humor and somewhat 'up' behavior (which many said was due to some good sex :D). But its possible that in season 2 we're finally getting to see him be comfortable and be himself.

You're right, he did play different roles to catch Jack's attention. I wonder if this new snarky type is Ianto showing himself a bit more or is it simply another role. I wonder if he's just playing the assertive card to stop Jack from losing interest...

You ask some interesting questions...

On the upside, they decided NOT to kill Ianto in Reset, which had been the original plan, so at least there still is a relationship. You do have to build the Jack/Ianto relationship out of little bits of body language mostly. In the beginning of KKBB, Jack kisses John enthusiastically on the mouth -- in Exit Wounds he pointedly turns away, he makes it abundantly clear that he has nothing left for John. What I saw at the very end of Exit Wounds was Jack who'd been crying all night and looked like hell, Ianto literally holding himself together and fighting tears, and Gwen in her own (shallow? certainly not as profound as Jack's)distress demanding reassurance from Jack. In both of those three-way hugs Gwen throws herself at Jack and Jack reaches for Ianto, and for me that illustrates their relationship.

No, you have to build JACK's end of the relationship out of body language and not much else. Ianto's position is clear.

I'd never heard of this Reset plan, where did you hear that? As far as I'm aware, Ianto was set to die before S2, but never since then.

Interview in Torchwood magazine, but it's been discussed lots of places. Even with Ianto, it's more what he does than what he says.

3: Burn Gorman (Owen Harper) - the actor talks about the life (and death) of his character, and reflects on the past two years. He reveals that it was Russell T Davies' idea to 'kill' off a main character; although originally it was intended that Ianto would die (the Jack/Ianto 'shippers won't like that little revelation...) Later on his discusses other acting roles, with have included the likes of "Bleak House" and "Fred Clause", and his desire to return to the stage.

From Torchwood TV on 3/20/08 here: http://torchwoodtv.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html

Not having read the article, though, is it made clear that BG is referring to this series and not S1?

*leaps in*

In both of those three-way hugs Gwen throws herself at Jack and Jack reaches for Ianto, and for me that illustrates their relationship.

Yes. Yes that's exactly it! You said it perfectly~

*Waves a hand in the air*

if this is the comment I posted about Ianto, after Lisa's death, appears to stand on the periphery when the demise of someone close is concerned, ie Tosh, Owen, and even Jack (End of Days). I wasn't saying he was uncaring, because by God, his eyes say the exact opposite, I was just wondering if anyone else had noticed this.GDL underacts the scenes brilliantly and I love him to bits for it, I was simply curious as to why 'Ianto' does it.

We got exactly what they said we would get, a "slow burn". Jack and Ianto are both still too emotionally damaged for anything more than that, and I'm glad they respected the time it is taking them to heal.

I'm hugely glad that it's not been hearts and flowers, I think their relationship, given what we know about it, is exactly where it should be. I just find that, first with the Jack/Gwen ambiguity, then with some of the Jesus!Jack connotations, they haven't really elaborated on how Jack feels about IANTO, specifically, and what he's getting from this relationship besides sex, since TTLM.

The American blog seems to be telling us that Jack has HUGE emotional, lovey-dovey feelings about Ianto. I find it interesting that they feel the need to elaborate on this in writing for an American audience, because it does indeed tell me that they're aware they're not showing us much on screen. I found this last episode to be indicative of that bit they are, for some reason, leaving out. They showed us where Gwen gets her comfort, snuggling on the sofa with Rhys, and they showed us nothing about Jack or Ianto. In leaving out a scene between the two of them (and no, I don't want THEM snuggling on the sofa, they don't function that way, that's fine, they can have a Scotch in Jack's office or angsty bumsex for all I care, that's not the point), they're essentially implying that Jack and Ianto have got their comfort elsewhere, alone. All it would have taken was a two-second hug shot when they were alone, and I'd feel like everything was okay, and as it stands, I don't.

"Ianto was very upset, that was blatantly obvious, about Jack being missing, that was played well and it was abundantly clear how happy he was to have Jack back. But, again, I didn't really see much from Jack about where he stands with Ianto...But I would have liked to have seen a scene akin to the Gwen/Rhys thing on the sofa"

we can probably place the lack of anything overtly jack/ianto squarely on the shoulders of chibnall, who has made it abundantly clear that he didn't want ianto to survive season 1 and was the one to propose killing him off in s2 only to be overruled by RTD Stokes and Jules. if we look at the chibnall stories, they are mostly obtuse in the jack/ianto relationship and heavy on the more conventional gwen-centric bilge.

i honestly think the BEST thing to happen to torchwood will be the departure of chibnall as lead writer. without the chibnall/rtd backroom, maybe richard stokes (the show runner) can actually get things moving along better (and fwt, stokes likes jack/ianto) and get at least a basic show legend built so back stories are at least consistent (oops, forgot, consistency is a swear word at torchwood).

if we had seen anything between jack/ianto at the end. it would have been them sitting in jack's office, maybe staring into space without saying anything. we could have had that instead of kissing quilt-boy (okay, does ANYONE remember where that quilted costume was seen before- i know it was on something, i just can't pull it out of my head. definitely a relic of the bbc closet.)

what little we got of ianto, was well played. i didn't expect emotional binge and purge ala gwen. we're talking about someone that has been through a harrowing experience (tw1) and tries really hard to keep it together. the hint of jack's needing ianto came in the form of each time gwen attached herself to jack like a limpet, jack reached out to ianto- it was kinda like "she's needing me, but i need you."

as for the future of TW. i think we'll see a s3 that's a full 13 episodes. there's no way in hell BBC Wales is going to let both DW and TW go on hiatus for an entire year. they've no choice with DW; but they do with TW. and if they went off air for a year, they'd never have a chance of regaining momentum with the US market- and BBC is very interested in the advertising dollars that generates.

i've read what Barrowman's said about the work schedule for TW; but i can't imagine him trying to walk away from it at this point. yeah, he has a lot of success right now; but its based on DW and TW. so they'll probably negotiate some scheduling stuff with him, and maybe have 1/2 episodes in the season where he's not a driving character. but TW is based around him, and the writers would really need to step up their game to make it a better ensemble drama if they wanted him out.

i know there's a lot of people that want marsters in the cast; but i'm sorry; do we really need rift!spike. please. if torchwood is just going to become buffy uk, i'll give fury a call and see if we can get some royalties (the hoix- please, total knock-off of a buffy monster). then again, i could always use a royalty check *g*.

Yeah, I agree on the kissing quilt boy, that could have been dropped, like I said, all it needed was a couple second shot of Jack and Ianto TOGETHER, on their own without anyone else there, doing ANYTHING at all, just a hint that they've been alone at some point in time since Jack came back from 2000 years underground. That was all I really wanted to see and I'd have been satisfied, they don't snuggle, I don't expect them to, but I did expect them to be in a room together without Gwen.

I think we'll see a normal 13 episode run WITH Barrowman, I just don't think it'll be confirmed until after Who series 4 airs, because I think there's some weird connection being planned that we're not aware of. It could just be the fact that they're transferring Martha to TW, I don't really know.

You're right about the ensemble drama thing, though, I don't really think the current team of writers have the capacity, nor is there the leadership for them to pull that off successfully. They obviously started this thing as a vehicle for Barrowman, with the support of Eve Myles, and it's gone so far in a different direction that they really seem to have been scrambling around ever since to fix the fact that Barrowman doesn't have the skills to carry a show and Eve's character was made SO unlikeable by the Gwen/Owen thing and has been going downhill ever since. That and the fact that they absolutely bring out the worst in each other in terms of acting, they're usually painful to watch. I personally wouldn't want Marsters in the cast, but I reckon they ARE trying to get him as a regular guest because of the fanbase he drags along into anything he does.

Yeah, I think the Hoix was a weird choice of alien to revive, because I always figured the way it looked and acted and the way it was defeated was partly IN ELTON'S HEAD. SO I figured the Hoix's appearance was partly just a standard televisual sci-fi/fantasy monster that Elton had created in his head because he'd only really caught a glimpse and his cultural memory filled in the blanks of what he thought it might have looked like. In the way that I didn't really think there were two buckets involved, but that was just Elton's convoluted retelling of the elements that he had latched onto from what was going on in those few fleeting moments. I obviously romanticise and think about these things too much, because apparently a Hoix just looks like that. Damn, I wish they'd stop ruining these romantic notions of mine.

Actually, I disagree with you in the fact that Chibnall hasn't given us anything. Even though I'm sure that in his head he'd like Gwen and Jack, he has given us good Jack/Ianto stuff from the beginning. As much as most of fandom hates it, Cyberwoman was his. He gave us the kiss in End of Days. He wrote the Office/Date scene and the "I came back for you... all of you." in Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang. He gave us THAT scene in Adrift, along with the "I'll talk to him." part. He wrote Fragments and came out and said he meant Ianto's segment to be a type of 'romantic comedy. With a pterodactyl.'

So I mean, even if he doesn't like Jack/Ianto, he's sure sticking to their relationship much better then other writers *coughs and points to Meat*

Oh god, Jack was buried at roughly the same time as Jesus. I don't WANT Jack to be the Gay Messiah.

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Torchwood - Exit Wounds, the Jack/Ianto story

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Ianto: He's a guy who needs to be needed at his core

Re: Ianto: He's a guy who needs to be needed at his core

Re: Ianto: He's a guy who needs to be needed at his core

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unresposiv = uncaring

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