Torchwood - Fragments, thoughts about THAT scene

[tencrush]

kateorman had a really out-there theory that there were erections involved in this encounter. (No! Surely not! I JEST, KATE.)



The theory suprised me because it hadn't yet occurred to me that there might be people out there who thought there were NO erections involved in this encounter. Though it does seem the jury's still out on who was most excitable, Jack or Ianto.

But yeah, my theory is that there was MUTUAL trouser stirring going on here. And it's what's finally punched Ianto in the face as to what he's willing to do and what that ACTUALLY means. In theory, with the jeans and the cruising and all the rest of it, sex has always been a part of the plan, but here's where it hits him what he might actually have to do. And, to really bring on the tears: THAT HE MIGHT ACTUALLY ENJOY IT. How much of a betrayal is that?

I think there's a whole other level to this scene which isn't even really about sex at all, and it's about enjoyment and fun. I don't know if you've noticed, but Ianto's having fun with Jack, catching Myfanwy, it's all adrenaline and running around and laughing, and this is a guy who, one would assume, has a cybergirlfriend IN HIS SHED as we speak. One that he's been looking after and is obviously desperate to fix since Canary Wharf happened, and since Canary Wharf happened, I can't imagine this guy's been having much fun. At all. You see, I think it's not just the fact that there's attraction and arousal going on that worries Ianto, it's the fact that he is actually having fun. His whole objective is to save Lisa, the girl he can't live without, and in saving her, or keeping her safe in any case, he may well end up proving that he CAN live without her. Which defeats the object of the exercise. Not only, I think, do his tears signify his own disgust at the levels to which he'll stoop and the fact that he might even enjoy stooping to them, but also every single one of his doubts and fears about whether saving her was actually the right thing to do. Did he do it for her or did he do it for himself? Should he have just let her go? I think this moment of doubt and tears also shows us the point at which saving Lisa to Ianto, who presumably has since Canary Wharf, been running on adrenaline and single bloody-mindedness, starts to become less of a love thing, and more of an obsession. He HAS TO save her now, in order to prove to himself that he did the right thing saving her in the first place and that he's doing the right thing in stooping to the levels he'll stoop to to save her now. He's effectively trapped himself.


That's my take, anyway. Well, part of it. I've had trouble talking about this episode because GDL really, really blew me away with this one, more or less leaving me dribbling on the sofa for a few days. He conveys SO MUCH IN SO LITTLE TIME, again, as always. Awe-inspiring. I think I could discuss this one for MONTHS.

Comments

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Oh that is excellent.

[tencrush]

I haven't been able to form a coherent sentence about this episode for days, that's how much it blew me away. It was all so... Ianto. Such well-researched, trial-and-error, bloody-minded, just... Iantoness about the whole thing. And I think there was an element of him actually ENJOYING that ENTIRE PROCESS, the whole trial and error pursuit of Jack, I think on some level, he found quite enjoyable and satisfying, just like anyone would enjoy any sort of successful project. And I think that enjoyment kind of squicks him, I think he finds it easier to function as a martyr, because it's simple.

[off_coloratura]

Yeah, what was revealed about Ianto in this episode kind of got me too, and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. I'm still rewatching his sections.

Really, really excellent point about the fun. Do you think it's because he finally lets his guard down in that scene that Jack decides to take him on? Or is it the sex? Or both?

[tencrush]

I think it is because he lets his guard down. And maybe a bit of the sex. Was it you who was worried Ianto was offering subtextual sex in that "I could be a butler" speech? Because I don't think he was. I think the interesting thing about this scene is that it's the one where Ianto ISN'T playing the sex card in any way, and has decided on a different course, and then just as Ianto lets his guard down, the sex card still manages to *ahem* come up. As it were.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

Well, of course, part of this is CC just trying to fit into this scene every job responsibility that they gave Ianto long before they knew they were going to retcon him into a manwhorespy. So I don't get too worked up about the butler comment. It's like we're getting a menu card of all the Ianto duties.

I think Jack hired him because he had a moment of connection with the real Ianto and liked him. Not just because of the erections. :-)

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

I think this is really insightful.

And can I just say how much I love Torchwood-- the show where it's completely normal to have an in depth discussion about whether or not characters had an erection at a particular point in time. :)

[tencrush]

I think it's normal and utterly necessary.

[rowanswhimsy.livejournal.com]

Yes, I totally agree. With everything. Including the mutual erections.

One of the reasons that I think I've had so much trouble talking about this episode is because Ianto's emotional state is pretty much exactly what I always thought it was and it's very complicated. And GDL had to go and knock the ball out of the park while portraying it in a few minutes. How awesome an actor is GDL, really? Very awesome.

If Ianto is attracted to Jack and having fun with Jack (as we see), then he has betrayed Lisa by essentially proving that he's still alive while she's suffering. So there's guilt over the implied betrayal. Ianto has been under tremendous strain since Canary Wharf and while they are catching Myfanway he has a moment of unguarded fun that he actually enjoys. THAT'S NOT IN THE PLAN and if he feels that while poor Lisa is more dead than alive then what type of horrible person does that make him? Survivor guilt. And to provide he's not 'that guy' who could betray his love, he has to try all the harder to save her. But since he's also had a moment of real connection with Jack (that Jack continues to try to recapture through S1) then he's also now betraying Jack who hired him against his initial better judgment. Jack is now a person, not just an objective.

My poor, poor Ianto. Manwhorespying is not what it's cracked up to be when you keep letting your emotions get involved.

I always thought that part of the reason that Ianto approached Jack in TKKS was because it symbolized his return to life. And part of the reason was (I thought) because he felt he 'owed' Jack because he had promised something that he had not fully delivered upon. But now seeing that the attraction was mutual since the beginning, I feel a little less that Ianto was paying Jack back and that it was more about Ianto freeing himself to enjoy his life again.

[tencrush]

Yeah, I find it really funny, reading back now, I knew, going into series 2, that Ianto was attracted to Jack, but back at the time of Cyberwoman, I knew no such thing, I even wrote that there was attraction on Jack's part but I JUST DIDN'T KNOW if it was seriously reciprocated, or if it was all just sex being used as a distraction. My personal belief is that payback sex took place between Lisa's death and Ianto's return to the Hub at the end of the episode. A kind of wiping clean of the slate, as it were. (I think sex as distraction took place before then, because I do believe they were having sex all along) I think Jack's surprise in TKKS is down to the fact that he thought they were even on the sex front. I think he's genuinely surprised and even happy to find out that the sex wasn't all about Ianto trying to pull the wool over his eyes, but there was genuine attraction involved. And boy, does Jack's reaction in Cyberwoman make more sense now, eh? I love when they retcon something purely to explain JB's overacting.

[th-esaurus.livejournal.com]

Oh oh oh, Ianto meta. Awesome and so true.

GDL needs to be cast in everything ever from now on.

[tencrush]

EVERYTHING, YES.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'GDL needs to be cast in everything ever from now on.'
Yes, please :D

[insevens.livejournal.com]

Yes! Exactly, yes! *points at you* Yes.

[tencrush]

*nods sagely*

[szm.livejournal.com]

Thank you, I've been trying to say something like that for days!

I think also that there was moment there while he was playing with Jack (and they were playing) where he wasn't thinking about Lisa at all. Just a moment, but that would be enough to severely shake him when he remembered again.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

I adore their playfulness.

[tencrush]

Yes, like rowanswhimsy said, survivor guilt, yet another thing to add to his already full arsenal of conflicting emotions.

[sang-dencre.livejournal.com]

...one would assume, has a cybergirlfriend IN HIS SHED as we speak.
LOL - my though was tucked in a storage locker - but I like shed much better.

I know what you mean about not knowing what to say about this episode. I've been thinking about it for days and come to very similar conclusions to you.
I think Ianto was trying to keep the last vestige of his former life alive, and he was prepared to do anything for it. I also think he does love Lisa and is doing this for all her and when he realised him and Jack 'connected' he felt very guilty and confused - after all - getting into TW3 was all about saving Lisa - and Jack was only supposed to be a means to an end.

On last seasons BBC Torchwood site they had Ianto's counsellor transcript from a week after TW1 was destroyed. In that he says he'll do anything to save Lisa. He's asked if he's acting out of love of duty and he says love.

I've been trying to work out the timeline for Ianto joining TW3 - just how long after TW1's demise did he turn up in Cardiff. Watching the episode I thought it would have been at least a month or so - but in his counsellors transcript a week later he already says he's got a job at the Cardiff branch - even calls it a 'bit of a step down - from head office to little more than a monitoring station'. So Ianto has been planning this from the moment he found out Lisa was now cybergirl.

This episode made me love Ianto even more.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

I'd like to say more, but: What you said ^^

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I think I could discuss this one for MONTHS.' Yes.

I can't tell you how much I love this scene, it can be interpreted in so many different ways. I think this episode really showcased Gareth amazing acting skills; he conveyed so much. A big part of the reason a like Ianto so much is because Gareth always gives such a layered, textured performance that he really makes Ianto come to life. Not to mention that his scenes with John always feel so natural.

[euphorazine.livejournal.com]

YES. One thousand times yes.

No more to add. Except that the way Ianto just gives Jack that knowing look in the wood? Gave me the shivers. GDL plays menace a little too well for my peace of mind. And he should never stop.

That warehouse scene... Going from reckless abandon to intense focus (the way Jack tilts his chin slightly, he's practically begging Ianto to kiss him) to realisation, escape and absolute crashing guilt (over Lisa, over Jack) in about five seconds? Holy crap. Excellent work.

Chibnall starts writing us episodes like this and then he leaves for Law & Order: London? Really quite infuriating. Damn.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Going from reckless abandon to intense focus (the way Jack tilts his chin slightly, he's practically begging Ianto to kiss him) to realisation, escape and absolute crashing guilt (over Lisa, over Jack) in about five seconds? Holy crap. Excellent work.'
Oh yes. I don't think I would like Ianto nearly as much if he was played by someone else, especially if it had been an actor who just got by on their looks.

'Chibnall starts writing us episodes like this and then he leaves for Law & Order: London? Really quite infuriating. Damn.'
I know. I just hope they find a good writer to replace him.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

been running on adrenaline and single bloody-mindedness, starts to become less of a love thing, and more of an obsession. He HAS TO save her now, in order to prove to himself that he did the right thing saving her in the first place and that he's doing the right thing in stooping to the levels he'll stoop to to save her now. He's effectively trapped himself.

yes yes YES i thought the exact same thing, but you said it better

[erinnthered.livejournal.com]

I have nothing really to add except more YES! YES! YES! to this post.

I guess having had people close to me be sick for periods of time before they died made me go to the 'survivor's guilt' place pretty quickly with this. It honestly didn't occur to me until much later that others didn't catch that. I mean, Ianto was crying before Jack gave him the job. It just got progressively worse for him as he got the job and then Jack complimented the suit. Oh wow. Gareth really was amazing in this.

I'm still not sure the sex started before Cyberwoman, but I am more sure than ever that the sex started before TKKS. I'm guessing Countrycide put them over the edge. I agree though that the real question is at what point Ianto became emotionally involved. I just think that came before the sex. Those looks in Small Worlds and Countrycide really do make me think he was already there. And the commentaries make me think that maybe that part isn't just retcon.

The weirdest thing about this, for me, is it makes me dislike CJH as an episode. The quick, confident assurance that Jack has no one in his life just squicks me now. I know that in that timeline he had no way to know if he could get back, and the fact that what they had wasn't really serious, but the way it's said. Just, eww.

Okay, maybe I did have something to add. heh

[echoingvista.livejournal.com]

You know, this theory I can swallow. It might even sway me.

Here's the thing, before we saw the episode, I'd heard all the rumors and spoilers, so I was expecting Ianto to be completely dark and manipulative and trying to seduce Jack to get into T3. To me, that's not what we got. I just saw Ianto more being desperate. I didn't see him trying to get into Jack's pants, just desperately begging for a job. The flirting and ease between them just came naturally. That little scene right there was Ianto realizing exactly how far this has gone and that it's too much and oh god, he wasn't supposed to feel anything for Jack. I thought his slight break down as he walked away was a mix of guilt over nearly cheating on Lisa and guilt over using someone he actually genuinely likes.

I really disliked kateorman's theory, because it assumed that the entire time, Ianto was willing to use sex to get what he wanted, and I just thought, especially with his slight breakdown, that that couldn't possibly be, because he just couldn't do that to Lisa. He was willing to do anything but sex wasn't one of them. Until it almost nearly was.

However, with the light you've put it under, that Ianto more thought he could use sex and then realizing he can't.. I do like it. And I like your theory about him enjoying it and maybe realizing he can live without Lisa and how wrong that would be (for him).

I think you've just changed my mind :)

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

This is interesting, because I had a think about it, and realised the whole sequence could be read completely differently: that Ianto is not intending to seduce Jack sexually, and gets a heartwrenching shock when blam, there's suddenly mutual attraction.