tencrush | Haha SPOILERS DON'T READ

He didn't say that although my impression was he did fancy him quite a bit. He did say, I'm assuming jokingly somewhat, that he thinks one of the reasons he likes to write scenes for hot guys is to get them to like him and he writes about Gareth specifically in that context. Every time he mentioned Gareth he mentioned how hot or sexy he thought he was much like with Tovey, whose arse he was particularly fascinated with. That just seemed to be a thing with him whenever he mentioned anything about the guys who've appeared on his shows, like James Marsters, he usually mentioned how sexy, hot etc. they were.

I wonder where Tom is these days, as he's apparently not with his wife. :/

The regeneration's there. It just takes him a million years to finally do it. Longest regeneration ever.

I considered skipping over it. Apparently, regeneration can be dormant long enough to put all of your affairs in order, despite 9 (10, if you count the S4 finale one) examples to the contrary.

Amen Sistah! The RTD hate is nothing but amusing, along with the hypocrisy that accompanies it, along with the usual implied threats by those who think that all their Fight Club friends aren't talking about Fight Club.

When Gardner moved it was clear she was working for the BBC still. When Davies moved him still working for the BBC didn't get mentioned and the move seemed to be reported as a shock to them.

Do you think he had the 'retainer' with the BBC over there before he moved?

It took Catherine Zeta Jones over 10 years to get her second big role after The Darling Buds of May in the late 80's, which was The Mask of Zorro. Even though Gareth's career isn't moving very fast at the moment, I can take comfort from the fact that many big Hollywood stars took several years to really establish themselves after having their first significant role. Tom Hanks is another example.

I'm curious about this. Why is everyone who hasn't liked RTD's writing as of late considered a "hater?" And why does there seem to be this need to group people who criticize his work as though they are some sort of hive mind with an agenda?

I'm not accusing you, but it seems you're chiming in with someone who has that opinion, and I've been wanting to get a straight answer from someone who is familiar with the idea of discussion without using heaps of logical fallacies to "prove" points.

Many of us more than willingly admit liking his work in the past. I don't think you'd find a person on this blog post or in any DW or TW forum who would not thank RTD for bringing back DW and creating TW. That doesn't absolve him forever from making mistakes, or getting called on them. Some of us, me included, could even care less about Ianto's death. And still others love everything he's done, and appreciate the OTT nature of his recent work. Good for them too.

Isn't it equally possible that different people disliked different things for different reasons, but all like to commune with those who will hear them out and discuss their issues? Isn't that how people come together? Common interest? So, several people who already participated in tencrush's blog, or posted on GB, or wherever happen to come to a similar conclusion about something and want to talk about it. Why not treat these people as individuals and actually ~~talk~~ write responses to posts specifically if you have an issue with what someone says? No one here would fault you for it. I don't think anyone here is that kind of person, and you might find some healthy discussion. Isn't it healthier than assuming people who disagree with you are some sort of Mean Girls out to rob your fun?

It seems so easy to create this idea of a "Fight Club" mentality that sniggers in back rooms and plots to trash RTD because it's "so cool." It's ludicrous. You create these ideas because it's easier than dealing with the idea that lots of individuals might possibly disagree with you independently. The thing is, I'm sure lots of people agree with you too, and liked the episode, or loved CoE. I don't see anyone here going on about people who liked the episode as if they started some cabal to prop up RTD. No one here thinks that those who liked this episode, or CoE, are trying to be "cool" by having that opinion, and starting threads over at GB or on their own blogs to gush and squee with others over Rose's appearance and such. No one is running over to trash their opinions in the most dismissive and shallow way possible.

Isn't it possible that someone who grew up on a TV show might have some feelings about that TV show regardless of who is writing it? Whether it's a daytime soap or a night time sci-fi show. Isn't it possible that someone could be enamored with an actor for their talent - or otherwise - and care when they feel their character was mistreated? Isn't it possible that absolutely none of the issues have to do with proving RTD wrong, or creating a cult of hate around him? You all act like there aren't other factors or people involved in these issues. RTD does not exist in a vacuum. The shows' characters, actors, directors, and other writers also have fans that could care less about RTD and what he does next.

Other writers get criticized, and the critics aren't accused with such hyperbole and defensiveness. I just don't get it. Yes, he's created some beloved characters. The catch is that he's not the only one who went into those creations. There were actors, and costume designers, and directors, and in some cases other writers who some feel may have grasped those creations better than RTD. He also didn't create Doctor Who. Terry Nation did in 1963. There have been many writers, and actors, and costume designers, and directors before now that people have loved and hated. Loving Doctor Who, or the Whoniverse, has nothing to do with RTD. And loving Doctor Who, and good writing, has nothing to do with Ianto fucking Jones.

Tom hanks worked steadily from Bosom Buddies on. Catherine Zeta Jones did a lot of theatre. West End, and major theatrical productions. Neither of them had drinking or drug problems to overcome either.

GDL is very talented, and I want him to do well, but he has to clean up and focus. That's how you have a career.

Aha! We finally found the dead guy! Sneaky Rusty is sneaky. ;)

That's exactly what I'm saying - the viewers matter exactly because they determine the revenue streams. Ratings (with the demographics factored in) are what drives revenue and that is a very, very different model from the one RTD is familiar with. There isn't the BBC charter of serving the public and there certainly isn't anything like advertiser pressure.

It's a radically different business model in the US. He's used to being someone with a great deal of cachet, and while it may get him a head start over here, he's going to have to learn the different rules and quickly.

Okay, I was just linked to these by a friend for completely different reasons, but they are both totally applicable here.

For anyone who thinks RTD is above criticism, I bring you two very funny and on point critiques of other men who in one case created amazing characters, but isn't the best loved writer of those characters.

George fucking Lucas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI
Watch this regardless. It's a masterclass in how someone can fuck up something that should have been simple, and goes in depth into what creates good stories.

And another who is well known for intricate TV work, and took on a beloved universe, and got both stellar and mediocre reviews for it.

JJ fucking Abrams and his Star Trek reboot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRNHpX5_Ek8

Actually watch as many of these videos as you can. You'll be better viewer of everything for it!

I like to think Jack's very good at compartmentalizing.

Oh I know Catherine and Tom did a lot of work between major roles, Tom once said that actors should work as much as possible between major roles - including doing rubbish stuff :) - if it means building up their CV's.

Gareth's roles in Sherlock Holmes and The Bill are like John doing Shark Attack because like JB said, he simply "needed the money" which is what Gareth is having to do now - taking on rubbish before hopefully being offered something bigger. Cush Jumbo (Lois Hubiba) briefly appeared in Casualty a few months ago, so she's also having to take on minor roles since doing COE.

As for Gareth's drinking problem, well he looks quite healthy at the moment (probably due to the fact that he's been working in panto over the last 5 weeks and couldn't afford to get drunk) so let's hope he stays that way. Gareth is clearly commited to his work, even if he does need to watch that beer belly. :)

The main thing I don't understand is whether we, as an audience, and Russell, as a writer, are perceiving this as a good thing or as a bad thing. It seems to be a virtue one day and a problem the next.

I'm angry about Donna's head.

Yeah, I don't get that thinking either. Presumably they also have things they dislike about a show, character etc. so are we to assume that they are just being "haters" and dismiss their opinions with equal condescension?

I also agree there are a lot of reasons why people might invest in a tv show and the writing might not always be the biggest part of that. Torchwood is a prime example of that for me. I thought the writing was kind of weak a lot of the time and gave the impression that the writers were forced to write in their own private vacuums with no real sense of what had gone on before or where the story was supposed to be going, but I thought the characters and actors and some of the ideas were interesting and had potential which might explain why Torchwood works better in fan fiction these days than it did as a show as a whole.It did have its moments, but moments only carry you so far.

As for RTD. I don't think he's brilliant or a genius (sorry RTD), but I don't think he's the worst writer evah. However, I do tend to like a lot the ideas behind his writing or at least what I think he's going for more than the actual writing, which can be strong in parts, but too often weak in others. I can't decide if he just loses focus after while, leaves everything to the last minute and so is forced to rush or just doesn't have the capabilities to follow through on the big ideas he obviously wants to explore. I suspect it's probably all of the above.

Kareo- I strongly disagree with your assessment. And I'm a little surprised by it. Yes, I know you didn't like Ianto. Fine, he's dead. Gone, not coming back. But that has nothing to do with the narrative quality of RTD's work.

I think TenCrush's next post does a much better job describing some of the problems in the show. And its become a constant issue with RTD's recent work. Dropping in characters out of the sky. Changing story lines at whim. Abandoning cannon for a quick laugh or man-pain. This is poor writing.

Maybe my expectations are too high, but if a writer tells me something is the best thing ever, then I expect it be at least well plotted, and coherent. I didn't have particularly high expectations for TW S1 & S2. It was a silly cracky sci-fi show - and I accepted it as such.

RTD wants to make S3 a 'serious' drama, fine, but that requires a lot more care with the writing than a cracky show (as opposed to a well written comedy which is far more difficult to get right).

I give RTD full credit for reviving DW and creating TW. And I liked the first couple of seasons of both. But he always seems to end up telling the same story. Man-pain city. Oh the angst. Oh, so not interested.

The irony is that you are going to have to decide whether you want to be a Gwen/Jack shipper if there's a TW4. Man-whore Jack from DW isn't coming back. No its going to be all kissy-face Jack, Gwen and the baby once they throw Rhys under the bus. Hmm...somehow I don't think that fits your cannon. But you won't be complaining, right?

Love your stories, but you missed the boat on this one.

'Most of us here could give a rats ass about Ianto coming back, we just don't like, shoddy, poorly thought out, contrived plots.'
This. I always hoped that they'd use Ianto more (or at lest give him a story arch), but now that I've come to terms with the fact that he's nothing more than a plot device/love interest, I don't care if he comes back or not. If their going to use Ianto coming back as a cheap ratings stunt (and still never give him a story arch), I'd rather he stays died. I don't like RTD not because he killed off Ianto (and Tosh and Owen), I don't like him because while he is good a coming up with concepts/ideas his writing is usually bad (at least when he's writing sci-fi). I loved the IDEA of Torchwood, but I like the fanfic more than the canon. So much wasted potential.

'He's great with ideas but often can't manage the follow-through.'
It's like I've always said; RTD is great at coming up with ideas, but he really needs to leave the writing (at least when it comes to sci-fi) to someone else.

Same here. Rhys is the real prize, it's a shame RTD can't see that. A flawed hero is one thing, but a enough with the emo manpain! Please! Don't get me started on how Jack basically exists in a vaccume and when TW series 4 rolls around, he'll be fine (again).

OK, if you are one of those people who's rage or dislike of RTD has nothing to do with the Ianto situation, then I'm sorry and I apologize for the rile-up.

Howevere...there are locked communities, where people are reminded constantly not to share their views with the outside world (to no avail) that are completely and totally united in their hatred of RTD because of and only because of the events of CoE.

The self-same people have of late been EXTREMELY hypocritical, deciding that RTD is a bad writer and the scum of the earth, when they were previously heaping love upon him for the so-called canon-slash they thought they were getting.

In my case, I'm essentially only a New-Whovian and a Jack-centric one to boot, so yeah, I'm highly sensitive to that particular thread of the Who-niverse and that one point of the finale.

Which WAS the point addressed in the VERY FIRST LINE of tencrush's post, and by implication teamharkness's response.

I'm genuinely sorry that you feel RTD's work has harmed something you cherish. Meanwhile I've gotten four amazing years of Dr. Who, one good year of Torchwood, one so-so one, and a five-episode mini-series that in the end gave me back the character I'd fallen in love with (Jack) and the hope of future stories with that character.

As a one-issue voter, my approach to the Who-verse and RTD does tend to be a bit skewed and my reactions to certain criticism somewhat defensive.

However, you can't deny there is the equivalent of the VRWC that hates on the RTD for the very same issue.

Haha... There is something to be said for being nice to your fans. I do hate it when writers pander to their fans though. Not every male and female lead has to get together because the fans want it.

Yay! Do you think hitting him with a large mallet (it works for the TARDIS) would work? Maybe you could train him like a dog.

'Bad Russell, bad. You have be nice to the fans. Be a good boy and I'll take you for a walkie.'

I hope you don't mind me jumping into your post, but did you ever get those Due South dvds for Christmas? What did think of the show?

Kareo? Izzat my new nickname? Cool.

I'm thrilled to hear that you like my stories as well.

I honestly do think we're more likely to real!Jack back than you think, and of course my hope is UST with Gwen along with real!Jack flirting up a storm.

IF we get graphic sex and ILU with Gwen, I'd make the case that it was OOC, but it would more IC than the J/I situation because of the John/Eve chemistry and the fact that (much as we might disapprove) there does seem to be a dichotomy in Jack's relationships and even though it won't work in the end, he's more likely to attempt the curtain buying with a woman. (Plus a certain vindictive part will enjoy watching the explosion from the Gwen-haters who have claimed that never wanted/loved Gwen.)

Can we have moritorium on the phrase man-pain? Jack has pain. Period. All the characters do and it's pretty damn sexist to make fun of any character's issues only because of their gender.

Really glad you like the stories though. Did you read Role Reversal? Kind of my ultimate statement of Jack and some of his attachments.

Haha SPOILERS DON'T READ

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